A question for the handicap experts...

gerrymadden1

A player has accumulated ten point ones in the current year... His current handicap is exactly one shot more than his lowest in the current year...
Started at 9.6 and now 10.6.
He continues to play in singles competitions and fails to break standard scratch.
When he plays below the buffer zone, there is no upward revision of his handicap, despite the fact that he is nine point ones away from getting a shot back.
What is happening to these points ones? Will an upward revision occur in the next Callander year?
No one appears clear on this situation.

BigChap1759

gerrymadden1 wrote: »

A player has accumulated ten point ones in the current year... His current handicap is exactly one shot more than his lowest in the current year...
Started at 9.6 and now 10.6.
He continues to play in singles competitions and fails to break standard scratch.
When he plays below the buffer zone, there is no upward revision of his handicap, despite the fact that he is nine point ones away from getting a shot back.
What is happening to these points ones? Will an upward revision occur in the next Callander year?
No one appears clear on this situation.

What point ones?? As I understand it he can't get any more point ones that year unless he gets a cut

Golfgraffix

In terms of the actual handicap the aditional .1s after 1sl has been reached have no bearing and are not retained for adjustment in the following year.

However the handicap software sholuld collect this data and report it to the handicap commitee when a player has had 7 x .1's in a row. This is known as CONTINUOUS HANDICAP REVIEW and is new this year Clause 23. It will be then up to the commitee to decide if this warrants an upward adjusment, if they decide it does they inform the GUI who have the final say.

If a player breaks the run of 7 x .1's then theay come off the report and start again.

Outside of that the player could possibley be adjusted under the general play provision and/or the Annual Review in November.

J

A New earth

gerrymadden1 wrote: »

A player has accumulated ten point ones in the current year... His current handicap is exactly one shot more than his lowest in the current year...
Started at 9.6 and now 10.6.
He continues to play in singles competitions and fails to break standard scratch.
When he plays below the buffer zone, there is no upward revision of his handicap, despite the fact that he is nine point ones away from getting a shot back.
What is happening to these points ones? Will an upward revision occur in the next Callander year?
No one appears clear on this situation.

As you correctly say, under new handicap rules this year the most your handicap can increase is one shot on your lowest of the year, which in this case is 10.6. Therefore there are no further point ones no matter how bad the score is. Next year they will start again until handicap reaches 11.6 when they will again stop. Hope that is clear.

gerrymadden1

I've been between 8 and 10 handicap for 20 years so I'm not especially interested in accumulating point ones...
However, I have noticed a trend recently where people are no longer entering competitions once they've reached the max of point ones. This will have serious long term implications for golf clubs.

BigChap1759

gerrymadden1 wrote: »

I've been between 8 and 10 handicap for 20 years so I'm not especially interested in accumulating point ones...
However, I have noticed a trend recently where people are no longer entering competitions once they've reached the max of point ones. This will have serious long term implications for golf clubs.

I just don't understand the logic behind this - why wouldn't you enter a competition if you can't get 0.1 back??!?

Some people fail to grasp that your handicap is a view to your potential, not what you should always play to. Form can be fleeting but you got down to a certain handicap by playing better and getting cut.

Armchair Andy

BigChap1759 wrote:

I just don't understand the logic behind this - why wouldn't you enter a competition if you can't get 0.1 back??!?

I wouldn't say it's because they can't get .1, it's because they can't on current form hit the buffer or better.

BigChap1759

Armchair Andy wrote: »

I wouldn't say it's because they can't get .1, it's because they can't on current form hit the buffer or better.

So just give up - how on earth do they expect to improve their form then??

Armchair Andy

That's what's happening, as the OP suggested in post 5.

Dtoffee

BigChap1759 wrote: »

So just give up - how on earth do they expect to improve their form then??

Maybe not everyone is capable of improving ? single figure golfers will have a lot more consistency in their play than a high handicapper who hits one good round a year and gets cut 0.4 per shot better than the comp standard scratch. I agree a young golfer with a high handicap will probably improve, but chances are most senior golfers will not due to a variety of issues related to their age and health.

Golf is a game for all ages and currently if a 24 handicap senior hits say 42pts on his once a year lucky day ..... it will now take him two years to get back to his once a year scoring handicap. An 8 handicapper shooting the same score will be cut less (0.2 per shot) and chances are he can earn that back in a year. This is where I see the issue and it is the older players who know they will never improve that are the ones losing heart and quitting playing as they know they cant compete. The danger is if these guys walk away and take up bowls, then the clubs suffer and that is not something anyone wants.

Having said that, if a high handicapper is winning regularly then by all means he should be cut and this is why I believe maintaining a league table on the notice board of who wins what throughout the year is a great way of seeing who is taking the most out of the club in prizes.

newport2

Dtoffee wrote: »

Maybe not everyone is capable of improving ? single figure golfers will have a lot more consistency in their play than a high handicapper who hits one good round a year and gets cut 0.4 per shot better than the comp standard scratch. I agree a young golfer with a high handicap will probably improve, but chances are most senior golfers will not due to a variety of issues related to their age and health.

Golf is a game for all ages and currently if a 24 handicap senior hits say 42pts on his once a year lucky day ..... it will now take him two years to get back to his once a year scoring handicap. An 8 handicapper shooting the same score will be cut less (0.2 per shot) and chances are he can earn that back in a year. This is where I see the issue and it is the older players who know they will never improve that are the ones losing heart and quitting playing as they know they cant compete. The danger is if these guys walk away and take up bowls, then the clubs suffer and that is not something anyone wants.

That's a good point. I like the new rule limiting to 1 shot increase, but perhaps higher handicap categories should be allowed a higher allocation of .1's a year.

Russman

Dtoffee wrote: »

This is where I see the issue and it is the older players who know they will never improve that are the ones losing heart and quitting playing as they know they cant compete. The danger is if these guys walk away and take up bowls, then the clubs suffer and that is not something anyone wants.

This exactly ^^

Most of the more senior gents I'd play with or see at weekends aren't really going out "hoping to improve" or to show their potential etc. That's all well and good for a young guy who thinks every Saturday morning that this is another chance to get cut. On the flip side, they're certainly not actively accumulating 0.1s either, but they (generally) feel once they've hit the ten 0.1s barrier that there's not much point in entering. Most of them still do enter at the moment though. The vast majority just want to play their game and feel that they have something of a chance, should they have a good day, and if they don't have one, that their handicap will reflect that.

I also think part of the problem is that for years or decades, most golfers have always viewed their handicap as what they should play to, as opposed to what they should shoot on a good day. Rightly or wrongly this view is massively prevalent. Lots of club golfers have no interest whatsoever in the intricacies of "the system", they simply think "I'm off 18, I should be mostly shooting in or around 18 over par". Whether that view is a result of bad communication from the governing bodies or just people taking a very logical/simple view of things is another debate !!:)

BigChap1759

Russman wrote: »

This exactly ^^

Most of the more senior gents I'd play with or see at weekends aren't really going out "hoping to improve" or to show their potential etc. That's all well and good for a young guy who thinks every Saturday morning that this is another chance to get cut. On the flip side, they're certainly not actively accumulating 0.1s either, but they (generally) feel once they've hit the ten 0.1s barrier that there's not much point in entering. Most of them still do enter at the moment though. The vast majority just want to play their game and feel that they have something of a chance, should they have a good day, and if they don't have one, that their handicap will reflect that.

I also think part of the problem is that for years or decades, most golfers have always viewed their handicap as what they should play to, as opposed to what they should shoot on a good day. Rightly or wrongly this view is massively prevalent. Lots of club golfers have no interest whatsoever in the intricacies of "the system", they simply think "I'm off 18, I should be mostly shooting in or around 18 over par". Whether that view is a result of bad communication from the governing bodies or just people taking a very logical/simple view of things is another debate !!:)

I must be totally off the wall and romantic - I thought the majority played golf for the love of the game, not to win competitions via the handicap system :rolleyes:

Russman

BigChap1759 wrote: »

I must be totally off the wall and romantic - I thought the majority played golf for the love of the game, not to win competitions via the handicap system :rolleyes:

I'm not really sure where you got that from my post, its not what I'm suggesting at all. There's a big difference between playing to win competitions via the handicap system, and going out thinking you might have a chance if you play well. But by your logic, if they play for love of the game, why pay the entry fee into the competition at all in that case ?

BigChap1759

Russman wrote: »

I'm not really sure where you got that from my post, its not what I'm suggesting at all. There's a big difference between playing to win competitions via the handicap system, and going out thinking you might have a chance if you play well. But by your logic, if they play for love of the game, why pay the entry fee into the competition at all in that case ?

My post wasn't directed at you in any way shape or form.

I guess I just have an issue with people taking their ball and going home if they don't feel they can win off their handicap.

Also, if I genuinely wasn't playing well enough to think I was anywhere near my handicap then perhaps I wouldn't pay the competition fee, but I would still play and I certainly wouldn't be leaving the club because of it.

Senna

I know of 3 players at my club that have stopped entering comps as they have reached their 10x0.1's. The three of them are bandits and so I'm delighted that the rules are effecting them, by this stage last year they would have had a good few comps won between them, this year they have yet to feature.
As for the rest of the club, many people have reached the 1 shot maximum and they haven't stopped entering comps.

Russman

BigChap1759 wrote: »

My post wasn't directed at you in any way shape or form.

I guess I just have an issue with people taking their ball and going home if they don't feel they can win off their handicap.

Also, if I genuinely wasn't playing well enough to think I was anywhere near my handicap then perhaps I wouldn't pay the competition fee, but I would still play and I certainly wouldn't be leaving the club because of it.

Ahh no, I'd actually agree with you in principle, and I don't think I've seen anyone not enter a comp just yet, but its been a topic of conversation alright.
I mean, really, does one shot mean that much ?
I think there needs to be a balance between the ideal scenario of everyone trying to get as low as they can, and the reality for a huge proportion of joe blogs club golfers.

Montgolfier

The rule is there for a reason and a good one at that. Having an inflated handicap means you don't have to try as hard, and by saying you can't play off your handicap is pure whinging. If you earn a certain handicap that's your potential with a bit of practice and effort.
Now if a golfer doesn't want to practice and just show up nd whinge when he can't play off his handicap that's not my problem. I put effort in to maintaining my handicap.
So stop screwballing over 0.1's because that's what's killing the game.

alxmorgan

I don't understand how this is stopping people entering comps. Say you get a 0.1 that would increase you by a shot but doesn't. That's 1 point in stableford.
So you go shoot 38 and it would have been 39.
I mean you would need another 10 x 0.1s before it becomes 2 pts or 20 x 0.1s before it becomes 3 pts.

It seems to me that 1 point is hardly enough to be complaining about. I enter most comps knowing I won't win mainly because I'm sh*t

So what about the guy who is 17.5 and is going along nicely but not well enough to win. Does he start thinking about the 1 point he will be down next week and start pulling ?

Russman

Montgolfier wrote: »

If you earn a certain handicap that's your potential with a bit of practice and effort.
Now if a golfer doesn't want to practice and just show up nd whinge when he can't play off his handicap that's not my problem. I put effort in to maintaining my handicap. .

Its might not be your problem, or mine, but it could become golf's problem.
Your handicap is you potential, not your potential with practice and effort. There's no rule that says practice and effort are a prerequisite to having a handicap. Obviously I'm not suggesting we should have carte blanch to carry as many shots as we want, but I think the old regime of two per year was fine.
You can't seriously suggest to, for example, a 75 year old 18 handicapper that he needs to practice a bit more to play to his handicap surely ? Or say to him, ahh sure wait til the annual review.
For most of us its a weekend pastime, not a penance.

BigChap1759

Russman wrote: »

Its might not be your problem, or mine, but it could become golf's problem.
Your handicap is you potential, not your potential with practice and effort. There's no rule that says practice and effort are a prerequisite to having a handicap. Obviously I'm not suggesting we should have carte blanch to carry as many shots as we want, but I think the old regime of two per year was fine.
You can't seriously suggest to, for example, a 75 year old 18 handicapper that he needs to practice a bit more to play to his handicap surely ? Or say to him, ahh sure wait til the annual review.
For most of us its a weekend pastime, not a penance.

No, but what difference then are a few more 0.1s going to do anyway? I'd assume at that age that you're physical abilities are in decline and naturally your handicap will increase correspondingly - just life no?

It's the opposite of a new young golfer who's improvement outpaces his decreasing handicap - these two situations are always going to be a challenge to any handicap system.

Russman

BigChap1759 wrote: »

No, but what difference then are a few more 0.1s going to do anyway? I'd assume at that age that you're physical abilities are in decline and naturally your handicap will increase correspondingly - just life no?

It's the opposite of a new young golfer who's improvement outpaces his decreasing handicap - these two situations are always going to be a challenge to any handicap system.

Absolutely agree. Its needs the best balance that they can find, and purely IMHO, I think a limit of one shot over your lowest in a given year is too tight. As someone mentioned in the other thread about this, no system will stop any genuine handicap cheats, so why hammer the vast majority of honest golfers. OK, hammer is probably a little OTT, but you know what I mean.

I know last year for example, I had hit the two shot limit by early August and gone out from 6 to 8. I certainly don't want shots back, I still think I can get back down to a decent handicap, but I was playing pure rubbish. Continued to play that way and had another, I dunno, 10 or 15 rounds well outside the buffer that I didn't get 0.1 for. Never even threatened to break CSS. Now, as I say I didn't want the 0.1s, but it could be easily argued that my handicap was nowhere current (potential or otherwise). I know I felt I was wasting my time every weekend, I'd imagine guys who have hit the one shot limit already this year could potentially get disillusioned.

First world problems, eh !!

Dtoffee

Imagine the handicap system was dropped altogether .... best man wins end of ?

how long would it be before theres only the talented few left in the club (if theres a club at all tbh)?

Golf is a compeditive sport and the addition of a handicap system allows it to attract a much wider player base and also enables it to be a life long sport as opposed to the physical contact sports. Just because you are getting old, it is no given that you will lose your compeditiveness and in my opinion I think its that compeditiveness that keeps us all going .... otherwise golf IS just a good walk spoiled.

Montgolfier

Russman wrote: »

Its might not be your problem, or mine, but it could become golf's problem.
Your handicap is you potential, not your potential with practice and effort. There's no rule that says practice and effort are a prerequisite to having a handicap. Obviously I'm not suggesting we should have carte blanch to carry as many shots as we want, but I think the old regime of two per year was fine.
You can't seriously suggest to, for example, a 75 year old 18 handicapper that he needs to practice a bit more to play to his handicap surely ? Or say to him, ahh sure wait til the annual review.
For most of us its a weekend pastime, not a penance.

Well those people your talking about enter competitions. So they obviously are competitive and wish to do better. If not why not just play casual golf and make up your own handicap.
If I want to win any other race or game I'd have to practice! Why is golf any different.
I don't think Bolt would be impressed if I was given a 50m head start in the 100m because I couldn't be bothered practicing (he'd still win).

The biggest problem in golf is slow play, so if you have lads just showing up collecting 0.1's, no effort put in no practice. They'll spend have the round looking for balls. If you want to play competitive golf you got to show a little interest in improving. Instead of waiting till the 0.1's catch up with your real handicap and you win a prize. If lads would spend the money on lessons that they spend on open comps trying to inflate their handicap the golf course would be a better place for all.

Russman

Montgolfier wrote: »

Well those people your talking about enter competitions. So they obviously are competitive and wish to do better. If not why not just play casual golf and make up your own handicap.
If I want to win any other race or game I'd have to practice! Why is golf any different.
I don't think Bolt would be impressed if I was given a 50m head start in the 100m because I couldn't be bothered practicing (he'd still win).

But does that not take the argument back almost to "why have handicaps at all ?"
How do you differentiate between player A who might have little talent at all and plays off say 16, getting everything he can out of his game, going to the range 3 times a week and taking lessons, and player B who also plays off 16 but only plays twice a month, if he played more he'd probably be off 12 ? They're both legitimately of 16 but player B is clearly much better. Its just the way the system is. If player B plays more he'll get cut and his handicap will be more current to his additional playing time but I don't buy the argument that he should be 12 now, and let him find the practice time to play to it.

I do think it also goes back to years and years of misconceptions about handicaps and what they, in theory, are meant to be. IMHO that's not going to change anytime soon.

Russman

Montgolfier wrote: »

Instead of waiting till the 0.1's catch up with your real handicap and you win a prize..

That's basically the way the system is supposed to work, if you substitute handicap cuts for prizes. You have a level of play, you have a good round, get cut, and your next 6 or 7 rounds will more than likely be poor and you'll go back up in handicap. Its how guys are off the same handicap range for years or more.

Montgolfier

Russman wrote: »

That's basically the way the system is supposed to work, if you substitute handicap cuts for prizes. You have a level of play, you have a good round, get cut, and your next 6 or 7 rounds will more than likely be poor and you'll go back up in handicap. Its how guys are off the same handicap range for years or more.

Maybe I should stop improving then maybe I read this all wrong. After all its guys like that I have to compete against.
Let's be clear I'm not talking about your average Joe here, I'm talking about guys who hold there handicap and shoot 47pts on captains day when the course is set up at its hardest.

Russman

Montgolfier wrote: »

Maybe I should stop improving then maybe I read this all wrong. After all its guys like that I have to compete against.
Let's be clear I'm not talking about your average Joe here, I'm talking about guys who hold there handicap and shoot 47pts on captains day when the course is set up at its hardest.

i'd agree with you re the guys who do that alright, but realistically can they be stopped ? Or are there really that many of them in the first place ?
Chances are its the average joe who's struggling most of the time to hit his handicap.
Agh fk it, I dunno, it is the way it is.

mike12

Montgolfier wrote: »

Maybe I should stop improving then maybe I read this all wrong. After all its guys like that I have to compete against.
Let's be clear I'm not talking about your average Joe here, I'm talking about guys who hold there handicap and shoot 47pts on captains day when the course is set up at its hardest.

Last year he would have been able collect 20 .1s after the captains and another 20 the start of the following year to be 4 shots better off.
Now best he can do is 2 from his lowest.

Dublin Spur

As far as I am aware golf is an oddity in sport in that the best player(s) does not always win due to the handicap system. It acknowledge that the system is not perfect but without it club competitions would be pretty much non existent.

However does anyone know how other non-team sports handle the problem of the most talented players winning all the time. Do they employ handicap systems, I'm thinking about sports like Tennis, Squash, Badminton, Snooker?

Or do they just have age or ability banded competitions ?

Anyone know ?

BigChap1759

Dublin Spur wrote: »

As far as I am aware golf is an oddity in sport in that the best player(s) does not always win due to the handicap system. It acknowledge that the system is not perfect but without it club competitions would be pretty much non existent.

However does anyone know how other non-team sports handle the problem of the most talented players winning all the time. Do they employ handicap systems, I'm thinking about sports like Tennis, Squash, Badminton, Snooker?

Or do they just have age or ability banded competitions ?

Anyone know ?

I know tennis and squash have different bands/levels for differing abilities

joxer1988

mike12 wrote: »

Montgolfier wrote: »

Maybe I should stop improving then maybe I read this all wrong. After all its guys like that I have to compete against.
Let's be clear I'm not talking about your average Joe here, I'm talking about guys who hold there handicap and shoot 47pts on captains day when the course is set up at its hardest.

Last year he would have been able collect 20 .1s after the captains and another 20 the start of the following year to be 4 shots better off.
Now best he can do is 2 from his lowest.

Are there actual golfers who (assuming 5 euro entry) would effectively pay 50e for a shot back? Not the best return on investment even if you can win one of the big ones...

Russman

joxer1988 wrote: »

Are there actual golfers who (assuming 5 euro entry) would effectively pay 50e for a shot back? Not the best return on investment even if you can win one of the big ones...

I think the problem of so called 0.1 gatherers is vastly overstated tbh. Of course, there are a few no doubt, but I reckon most are just average Joes fitting the normal profile.
Maybe good old fashioned Irish begrudgery....who knows.

Senna

I think there is a lot of mythical players being proposed in this thread that will be effected by the new rules, reality is, very few are.
Adjustments can be made by the Committee and until someone can produce a segment of the golfing public being effected (other than bandits), this is all just "outrage on behalf of other people".

Dublin Spur

BigChap1759 wrote: »

I know tennis and squash have different bands/levels for differing abilities

Isn't it odd why golf is the only sport where a complex handicap system is deemed necessary in comparison with the other non-team sports

The Rape of Lucretia

joxer1988 wrote: »

Are there actual golfers who (assuming 5 euro entry) would effectively pay 50e for a shot back? Not the best return on investment even if you can win one of the big ones...

Its a bit more complicated than that. Its not really a question of paying in to buy a 0.1. Rather, of when not in the the hunt for a prize of interest, then rather than end up with a score 1 or 2 better than CSS, they throttle back to avoid the cut. Or, given that most people will be within their buffer zone about half the time with no chance of being in the winners enclosure at all, then, instead of staying within it and having no adjustment to the h/c, they drop back a little again, and collect the .1.
Most will only beat CSS about once in 10 rounds, so a bit of 'management' of the other 9 can make all the difference to avoid little cuts, or non collection of .1s.
Done 'correctly', you are probably looking at being able to add a shot to your handicap about every 10 rounds (gain an extra 5 x 0.1, and avoid 1 or two differential cuts of about 0.5 of a shot also). So over time, it is very easy to bag an extra 3 or so shots above your true handicap without making it too obvious.

Senna

Dublin Spur wrote: »

Isn't it odd why golf is the only sport where a complex handicap system is deemed necessary in comparison with the other non-team sports

Name another amateur sport where there isnt leagues, divisions, classes, etc and someone with a large amount of talent plays against a beginner on a weekly basis?
Most competitive golf is against the course, not other players, the person who has the best score against the course wins.

Russman

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Its a bit more complicated than that. Its not really a question of paying in to buy a 0.1. Rather, of when not in the the hunt for a prize of interest, then rather than end up with a score 1 or 2 better than CSS, they throttle back to avoid the cut. Or, given that most people will be within their buffer zone about half the time with no chance of being in the winners enclosure at all, then, instead of staying within it and having no adjustment to the h/c, they drop back a little again, and collect the .1.
Most will only beat CSS about once in 10 rounds, so a bit of 'management' of the other 9 can make all the difference to avoid little cuts, or non collection of .1s.
Done 'correctly', you are probably looking at being able to add a shot to your handicap about every 10 rounds (gain an extra 5 x 0.1, and avoid 1 or two differential cuts of about 0.5 of a shot also). So over time, it is very easy to bag an extra 3 or so shots above your true handicap without making it too obvious.

There's some of that, no doubt. I honestly don't think its all that prevalent. But how do you tell between the fella doing it "deliberately" and the fella who turns in 20 pts, gets a bit jittery on the back nine because he's going well, and ends up with 13 pts on the back to shoot 33 pts, and probably get 0.1 ?
Its all about intent and that can never be proven really.

spacecoyote

Dublin Spur wrote: »

As far as I am aware golf is an oddity in sport in that the best player(s) does not always win due to the handicap system. It acknowledge that the system is not perfect but without it club competitions would be pretty much non existent.

However does anyone know how other non-team sports handle the problem of the most talented players winning all the time. Do they employ handicap systems, I'm thinking about sports like Tennis, Squash, Badminton, Snooker?

Or do they just have age or ability banded competitions ?

Anyone know ?

Pretty sure that snooker, at an amateur level does sometimes use a handicap system too. I've a friend that plays regularly & I'm 99% sure his club do. So depending on your ranking you get a certain number of points advantage (eg you might start with a 30 point lead if you're playing against a higher level of player)

PARlance

Dublin Spur wrote: »

As far as I am aware golf is an oddity in sport in that the best player(s) does not always win due to the handicap system. It acknowledge that the system is not perfect but without it club competitions would be pretty much non existent.

However does anyone know how other non-team sports handle the problem of the most talented players winning all the time. Do they employ handicap systems, I'm thinking about sports like Tennis, Squash, Badminton, Snooker?

Or do they just have age or ability banded competitions ?

Anyone know ?

If you go 4 legged you can find a similar situation in sport. Handicaps are fairly common in Horse Racing (weight) and Greyhound Racing (staggered distances).

RoadRunner

gerrymadden1 wrote: »

I have noticed a trend recently where people are no longer entering competitions once they've reached the max of point ones. This will have serious long term implications for golf clubs.

Would this not be good evidence that banditry was rampant in your club?

doublecross

Dublin Spur wrote: »

As far as I am aware golf is an oddity in sport in that the best player(s) does not always win due to the handicap system. It acknowledge that the system is not perfect but without it club competitions would be pretty much non existent.

However does anyone know how other non-team sports handle the problem of the most talented players winning all the time. Do they employ handicap systems, I'm thinking about sports like Tennis, Squash, Badminton, Snooker?

Or do they just have age or ability banded competitions ?

Anyone know ?

I used to play a bit of Tennis in the past and I remember some competitions using a handicap system. Some of the better players would be -15/-30 and some of the beginners might be +15 at the start of each game.