Privately paid teacher pay

janes1234

Are there any privately paid teachers out there getting paid less than the pay scale rates? My friend just secured a job in a private school and he is pretty unhappy that the school are paying him about 2000 less than if he were on department contract. I know they don't have to match the salaries but in my experience I have always been paid the same and have worked in 2 private schools.

What are your thought? I guess he's taking the job as he has no other options and is grateful for the work

evolving_doors

janes1234 wrote: »

Are there any privately paid teachers out there getting paid less than the pay scale rates? My friend just secured a job in a private school and he is pretty unhappy that the school are paying him about 2000 less than if he were on department contract. I know they don't have to match the salaries but in my experience I have always been paid the same and have worked in 2 private schools.

What are your thought? I guess he's taking the job as he has no other options and is grateful for the work

It's becoming more common now unfortunately. Originally the union had an informal agreement with schools but alas some schools deem fit to treat some teachers unfairly.

Tell your friend to make it their mission to get out of the school and into dept. hours asap.

janes1234

Gebgbegb wrote: »

It's becoming more common now unfortunately. Originally the union had an informal agreement with schools but alas some schools deem fit to treat some teachers unfairly.

Tell your friend to make it their mission to get out of the school and into dept. hours asap.

I wish it were that simple but he wanted his own hours and that is important as well. I've a feeling he'll be staying there at least for a while such as shame.

mtoutlemonde

Gebgbegb wrote: »

It's becoming more common now unfortunately. Originally the union had an informal agreement with schools but alas some schools deem fit to treat some teachers unfairly.

Tell your friend to make it their mission to get out of the school and into dept. hours asap.

+1 on this. There is a private school close to me who have advertised in a subject for the third time this summer. There are more disadvantages than advantages i.e. longer working hours, Easter/Christmas revision courses, no summer pay and always being afraid of what the students are saying about you to the management. I remember a few years ago, the same school advertised every two months because the students were complaining.

janes1234

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

+1 on this. There is a private school close to me who have advertised in a subject for the third time this summer. There are more disadvantages than advantages i.e. longer working hours, Easter/Christmas revision courses, no summer pay and always being afraid of what the students are saying about you to the management. I remember a few years ago, the same school advertised every two months because the students were complaining.

I've worked in private schools and have been quite happy in them. It comes down to management at the end of the day. I don't think generalisations about private schools are in any way helpful. After all, some teachers work in them and are quite happy. As for Easter revision etc., I have never been asked to do these nor would I. I find this a hugely generalised and untrue comment.


My query was in relation to the pay aspect of things, not the working conditions. There are also plenty of public schools who abuse their staff in ways you have mentioned above.

I'm not trying to start an argument just wanted to point this out as sweeping statements are often made on this section of boards.

mtoutlemonde

janes1234 wrote: »

I've worked in private schools and have been quite happy in them. It comes down to management at the end of the day. I don't think generalisations about private schools are in any way helpful. After all, some teachers work in them and are quite happy. As for Easter revision etc., I have never been asked to do these nor would I. I find this a hugely generalised and untrue comment.


My query was in relation to the pay aspect of things, not the working conditions. There are also plenty of public schools who abuse their staff in ways you have mentioned above.

I'm not trying to start an argument just wanted to point this out as sweeping statements are often made on this section of boards.

I'm only saying what I know from the school close to me, not all private schools. But I would assume there would be more stress as the students are paying the wages. I only agreed with the previous poster regarding getting out to get department paid hours. It might be the best school he ever works in and fair play if it is.

mirrorwall14

Take the job and continue job hunting. If it's a half decent principal they will understand that you want to get onto the public system pay scales. Source:worked for two years in a private school on qualifying and he understood when I asked for a reference to keep looking. He didn't have public hours in my subject to keep me. When I walked in over the summer to tell him I didn't have to open my mouth, he said where are you off to.

On a separate note I found it a very different system and not my cup of tea. The atmosphere is odd and I really felt I rejoined normality and my own social class when I returned to the public school system

implausible

janes1234 wrote: »

I wish it were that simple but he wanted his own hours and that is important as well. I've a feeling he'll be staying there at least for a while such as shame.

Does your own hours matter? I didn't think you could get a CID on private hours.

janes1234

Yes you can most private schools give CIDs. Otherwise they would presumably have no staff.

implausible

janes1234 wrote: »

Yes you can most private schools give CIDs. Otherwise they would presumably have no staff.

Mea culpa, thought CIDs were only for department-paid teachers.

janes1234

implausible wrote: »

Mea culpa, thought CIDs were only for department-paid teachers.

Maybe somebody could clarify? I'm pretty sure you can get a CID as privately paid. There must be some privately paid teachers out there who are permanent. I would love to hear from you

mirrorwall14

Yes you can be CID but the terms and conditions of your contract do not have to be the same as a dept paid teacher but the protections like transfer to another job if the numbers fall etc aren't the same. It's more like the private sector where they can't let you go unless they make the role redundant asfaik

r93kaey5p2izun

CIDs come from legislation and apply to all workers. So yes, privately paid teachers can gain CID. But legally CID is only after 4 years so there would be no obligation to follow the Ward circular 2 year rule. I would also imagine it's easy enough for such a school to argue objective grounds for not awarding CID based on the fact the hours rely on fees paid by students rather than DES money and are not sustainable in the future. But I do know teachers who have received privately paid CIDs, it certainly does happen. But a school paying less than the pay scale sounds like one likely to be awkward about a CID.

implausible

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Yes you can be CID but the terms and conditions of your contract do not have to be the same as a dept paid teacher but the protections like transfer to another job if the numbers fall etc aren't the same. It's more like the private sector where they can't let you go unless they make the role redundant asfaik

But if you're not paid over the summer, surely that breaks the continuous contracts requirement for a CID?

mirrorwall14

implausible wrote: »

But if you're not paid over the summer, surely that breaks the continuous contracts requirement for a CID?

As far as I'm aware most contracts run through the summer. At least my privately paid hours did or I wouldn't have taken the job as quickly

r93kaey5p2izun

implausible wrote: »

But if you're not paid over the summer, surely that breaks the continuous contracts requirement for a CID?

This has come up many times at adjudication and at the Employment Appeals Tribunal. Not being paid during summer has been rejected as a reason for not awarding CID every time.

rainbowtrout

implausible wrote: »

But if you're not paid over the summer, surely that breaks the continuous contracts requirement for a CID?

There is something in legislation that says if the break was not for more than 3 months and you are given a new contract for the same job then it doesn't constitute a break. I assume that was in direct reference to teaching. Otherwise schools could have teachers on a never ending series of fixed term contracts and never give out CIDs.

evolving_doors

janes1234 wrote: »

Maybe somebody could clarify? I'm pretty sure you can get a CID as privately paid. There must be some privately paid teachers out there who are permanent. I would love to hear from you

Yup, Cid's for dept are unique, any other job on fixed term contracts are entitled to CID after 4years..

Inspector Coptoor

I work in a private school and was given a CID last year after 3 years.
Colleagues of mine got CIDs this summer after two years.

The school I'm in pays us the same rate as the Dept and we don't pay the pension related deduction.

We have the option of paying into a private pension and the option of earning extra money by being rugby coaches, doing night study etc.

Given that it's been 6 years since the Dept paid me, and id now be on the newer, crapper pension, there is no incentive for me to ever go Dept paid again.

evolving_doors

CID info for non-dept-paid teachers is here...
teachers-and-fixed-term-contracts/.
Although keep in mind this is not an official govt. website and could be out of date.

If an employee is employed on 2 or more successive fixed term contracts in continuous employment for a period of 4 years then any attempt to give that employee a further fixed term contract is unlawful and void and the employees is entitled to a contract of indefinite duration.

So I suppose the school can decide to give you the CID after 2 years if they want... or ... wait 4 years then have to give it to you. But of course there are grounds that they can object on (such as the subject mightn't have any demand after 4 years etc)

For teacher's who are dept. paid then that is covered under Haddington Road (at least it was a while ago!).

evolving_doors

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I work in a private school and was given a CID last year after 3 years.
Colleagues of mine got CIDs this summer after two years.

The school I'm in pays us the same rate as the Dept and we don't pay the pension related deduction.

We have the option of paying into a private pension and the option of earning extra money by being rugby coaches, doing night study etc.

Given that it's been 6 years since the Dept paid me, and id now be on the newer, crapper pension, there is no incentive for me to ever go Dept paid again.

Would you say at a rough calculation! that the tax relief on the privately paid pension is more beneficial than the dept pension (if both were commenced at the same time... say aged 38)?

Geuze

Tax relief on all pension types is the same.

dazzeremo

A friend of mine has been offered a post that is paid by the school. He is unsure about it. What questions should be asked about the contract? Obviously, are holidays paid being the main one.

evolving_doors

dazzeremo wrote: »

A friend of mine has been offered a post that is paid by the school. He is unsure about it. What questions should be asked about the contract? Obviously, are holidays paid being the main one.

Is it in line with dept pay scale and increments? Increments are the clincher, otherwise the school will have you begging for a paltry pay rise after 10 years. Even at that, believe NOTHING of what you are told until a contract is produced, then contact the union to go through it (ASTI accept privately paid teachers, TUI do not).
Even if your friend accepts the job they should say nothing and keep applying elsewhere for dept paid.
In the past the decent thing was to gradually move school paid over to dept. paid and seniority counted for something... now it's dog-eat-dog and I've spoken to excellent privately paid teacher whos been shafted by school when dept paid posts for same subject come up (nepotism),.
In short : take it if their stuck. But keep looking elsewhere.

evolving_doors

dazzeremo wrote: »

A friend of mine has been offered a post that is paid by the school. He is unsure about it. What questions should be asked about the contract? Obviously, are holidays paid being the main one.

Is it in line with dept pay scale and increments? Increments are the clincher, otherwise the school will have you begging for a paltry pay rise after 10 years. Even at that, believe NOTHING of what you are told until a contract is produced, then contact the union to go through it (ASTI accept privately paid teachers, TUI do not).
Even if your friend accepts the job they should say nothing and keep applying elsewhere for dept paid.
In the past the decent thing was to gradually move school paid over to dept. paid and seniority counted for something... now it's dog-eat-dog and I've spoken to excellent privately paid teacher whos been shafted by school when dept paid posts for same subject come up (nepotism),.
In short : take it if their stuck. But keep looking elsewhere.

r93kaey5p2izun

Consider that if they don't do a day's Dept or ETB-paid subbing within 26 weeks of their last day, then they will be put on the new inferior pension. Of course this doesn't apply if already a post 2013 entrant.