Do small suckler cows make more money?

Buford T. Justice XIX

An American publication, but the principles are pretty much the same.

http://beefmagazine.com/blog/do-small-cows-make-more-money

Iirc, wasn't there something in the Teagasc Newfarm(?) suckler herd about breeding smaller suckler cows as well?

tractorporn

Well they certainly eat less for a start. We have Charolais cows here and they definitely eat more than the pen of smaller Angus cows.

Who2

Are people really farming their farms efficiently enough that they can say the size of their cow is going to impact that much on their overall income especially with sucklers.

ZETOR_IS_BETTER

1,000-pound cows on the working university ranch in Wyoming are weaning more pounds of beef than any other category of cows up to 1,400 pounds. Because they can be run at higher stocking rate, this ends up being more total pounds of beef produced per acre

That's a key point for me in that study. smaller cow out performs the big cow but only because you have more smaller cows. More work, more sheds, higher stocking rate to deal with

Bass Reeves

ZETOR_IS_BETTER wrote: »

That's a key point for me in that study. smaller cow out performs the big cow but only because you have more smaller cows. More work, more sheds, higher stocking rate to deal with

Neither of these two may apply. You may need a bigger tank for storage not because of more slurry but because of nitrate regulations. However you would get more cows/pen. Most suckler farms are at low stocking levels so again stocking level would not be an issue.

It is really down to calf price would it be economical to calf down large Continental cows for a weaning price of 2-2.4/kg. If you were going for a smaller cow HEX, AAX or LMX and calving down to an AA/HE bull you could finish these cattle after one winter. The economics of a larger cow is dependent on being able to carry there prodgney to 400+kg DW as bulls or bullocks, Next year may tell a story where these are concerned.

patsy_mccabe

Small cows with big pelvic openings that can be crossed to a big easy calving bull. Hard to beat that.
70 cows at 550 kgs will eat the same as 55 cows at 700 kgs.

Who2

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Small cows with big pelvic openings that can be crossed to a big easy calving bull. Hard to beat that.
70 cows at 550 kgs will eat the same as 55 cows at 700 kgs.

Now do you really think that's the case or is it based on another average percentage pulled out of their arses by a 22 year old in Teagasc. If it's down to figures surely there's an amount that's needed to keep all animals alive and then no more than humans or most other species there's ones with faster and slower metabolisms and then there's greedier eaters, but it's just too easy for Teagasc to say an animal will eat x percent of their body weight therefore lighter animals are more profitable. No more than their piss poor valuations on culls which are usually well below the value of what gets sold in suckler based areas. Would 55 good cows not be better than 70 half arsed cows that need twice the watching at calving, a ball of meal to get them back in calf another bit to get them back in calf to suit your calving period and a lifetime studying ai catologues so as you can get an easy calving bull that might throw a calf your not ashamed of in the mart at the back end.

Bass Reeves

Who2 wrote: »

Now do you really think that's the case or is it based on another average percentage pulled out of their arses by a 22 year old in Teagasc. If it's down to figures surely there's an amount that's needed to keep all animals alive and then no more than humans or most other species there's ones with faster and slower metabolisms and then there's greedier eaters, but it's just too easy for Teagasc to say an animal will eat x percent of their body weight therefore lighter animals are more profitable. No more than their piss poor valuations on culls which are usually well below the value of what gets sold in suckler based areas. Would 55 good cows not be better than 70 half arsed cows that need twice the watching at calving, a ball of meal to get them back in calf another bit to get them back in calf to suit your calving period and a lifetime studying ai catologues so as you can get an easy calving bull that might throw a calf your not ashamed of in the mart at the back end.

Most of this is proven, the economics of the big cow is based at present on selling there male prodgney at 400kgs+ DW. Some of the biggest calves at weaning are those from milky cows. TBF to Tegasc they have proven in the that an LMX cow produces a calf with the most weight at weaning. Cull value favours the bigger cow anyway.

The real nub of the issue is if carcass weight are forced down to sub 380kgs how will this change the economics of a large 3/4 bred continental cow versus a smaller LMX HEX or AAX cross. The biggest issue with AAX cross cows is too many are bred from easy calving bulls and the better quality heifer is slaughtered at 18-20 months.

It is unlikly that any good quality young cows that I have described above would require a ball of meal to get in calf there ability to live off poorer ground is recorded and it is more likly the larger continental would be the cow with an issue regarding body condition at breeding and calving.

ZETOR_IS_BETTER

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Neither of these two may apply. You may need a bigger tank for storage not because of more slurry but because of nitrate regulations. However you would get more cows/pen. Most suckler farms are at low stocking levels so again stocking level would not be an issue.

It is really down to calf price would it be economical to calf down large Continental cows for a weaning price of 2-2.4/kg. If you were going for a smaller cow HEX, AAX or LMX and calving down to an AA/HE bull you could finish these cattle after one winter. The economics of a larger cow is dependent on being able to carry there prodgney to 400+kg DW as bulls or bullocks, Next year may tell a story where these are concerned.

I see where your coming from, but now we have built new slurry storage for nitrates (how much will that cost?), and say for every 10 big cows how many small cows will take their place 12, 14, 16? There is an increase in stocking rate. If you have to replace 50 big cows with 70 small you are gonna need a bigger boat shed.

Another issue with the article is that there is no ratio of cow numbers given.(correct me if I missed it) So we dont know how many small cows there were per big cow were used in the study. There was a weight comparison.

Also in Irelands case suckler farming is primarily part time. Who is going to invest all that effort to subsidise the beef industry. Its a race to the bottom, how many cows can one person manage before the back breaks.

Sam Kade

Some farmer having cows calving in June says he's making more profit.

Count Mondego

You'd wonder about these carcass specs. I sent a load of cattle off a few weeks ago and some of the DWs were 460-480kg and I got no penalty and still got the BB 12 cent bonus.

Utdfan20titles

Sone think so but there just suckers

patsy_mccabe

Count Mondego wrote: »

You'd wonder about these carcass specs. I sent a load of cattle off a few weeks ago and some of the DWs were 460-480kg and I got no penalty and still got the BB 12 cent bonus.

It all depends on how scarce finished cattle are. Some things never change.

Count Mondego

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

It all depends on how scarce finished cattle are. Some things never change.

When the beef forum meet how does that argument stand up I wonder?

Tight supply = no spec
plentiful supply = spec and penalties.

Supposedly the whole driver for this is the English retailer and housewife who want a smaller cuts of beef. Does she change her preference when she reads about the tight supply on the Farmer's Journal?

I also wonder is Larry finishing Continental , FR/AA, FR/HE in his feedlots?

Bass Reeves

Count Mondego wrote: »

You'd wonder about these carcass specs. I sent a load of cattle off a few weeks ago and some of the DWs were 460-480kg and I got no penalty and still got the BB 12 cent bonus.

Cattle are a bit scarce at present processors will buy cattle for throughput. They will only compete for as they describe as inspec cattle if they have contracts to fill. We can all remember 2014 when processors dropped the price of everything but really hit cattle that they considered out of spec such as over 30 months, poorer quality cattle ( for a while they hit P- cattle by over 50c/kg) and had inposed the weight limes to as low as 380kg and refused to pay QA on then if they did not hit them with a penelty as well.

Who2

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Most of this is proven, the economics of the big cow is based at present on selling there male prodgney at 400kgs+ DW. Some of the biggest calves at weaning are those from milky cows. TBF to Tegasc they have proven in the that an LMX cow produces a calf with the most weight at weaning. Cull value favours the bigger cow anyway.

The real nub of the issue is if carcass weight are forced down to sub 380kgs how will this change the economics of a large 3/4 bred continental cow versus a smaller LMX HEX or AAX cross. The biggest issue with AAX cross cows is too many are bred from easy calving bulls and the better quality heifer is slaughtered at 18-20 months.

It is unlikly that any good quality young cows that I have described above would require a ball of meal to get in calf there ability to live off poorer ground is recorded and it is more likly the larger continental would be the cow with an issue regarding body condition at breeding and calving.

The biggest calves at weaning aren't always the one to make the most profit. Will a 3/4 bred limo cow really eat 200 more than a hex cow? I see all this info being pushed down our throats about traditional breeds, cross breds from the dairy herd and all the other little things they want that basically says goodbye to the export market, maybe I'm sceptical but it's all to convenient that it will leave us with a great big batch of cattle that will have to be killed in this country rather than animals that we can ship off for some other country to finish.

J.O. Farmer

Count Mondego wrote: »

When the beef forum meet how does that argument stand up I wonder?

Tight supply = no spec
plentiful supply = spec and penalties.

Supposedly the whole driver for this is the English retailer and housewife who want a smaller cuts of beef. Does she change her preference when she reads about the tight supply on the Farmer's Journal?

I think she changes her mind when she sees what's on special offer down the local supermarket.

charolais0153

On the dairy thread Holstein's are eating 18-20kg DM day compared to 14-16kg DM from a suckler . go figure had a Holstein cow last year to rear some calves and she was always eating compared to the more continental cow

Limestone Cowboy

Sam Kade wrote: »

Some farmer having cows calving in June says he's making more profit.

I had a few June calves last year and sold them as yearling bullocks. Left as much as any weanling I sold last back end. Had good March/April born heifers from last year I sold a few weeks ago and I would have nearly as much got for them last back end and I put a lot of feeding into them unlike the bullocks. Hard to know what the right thing is at times. Heifers averaged 70kg heavier than the bullocks and 30e less!

patsy_mccabe

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

........Hard to know what the right thing is at times. Heifers averaged 70kg heavier than the bullocks and 30e less!

Heifers were hit more than bullocks by Brexit.

galwayhillbilly

Looked into the small cow angle a few years ago, was looking at the Galloway/highland dexter type animal to suit soft land but our fearless leaders state that a beef cow whether she is 400kg or 700kgs produces xkg of nitrates I am sure someone will give the precise figure, similarly the calves from these cows and their weanlings etc will produce the exact same amount of nitrates as a BBxCH. Now as someone who wants to maximise profit from my land I can put as much stock on it as nitrates and grass will allow. With the small cow I will run out of nitrate allowance before I run out of grass with the big cow it will be the other way around + add heavy poaching to the mix. With the small cow I can out-winter but then I am restricted to 120kg nitrates which I would be ok with, if they based it on the breed of the cow like they do with sheep.
With sheep I can have a mix of lowland and mountain sheep which allows me to have a higher stocking density than pure lowland and gives me good quality replacement ewes. It allows me to get the most from my small parcel of land but my missus is fed up of the work involved and wants me to change to a low input beef system which would ideally be small cows crossed with a limousine bull out wintered and progeny sold on before second winter be they finished or stores. But the lack of flexibility in the nitrates rules wont allow me to stock the land to it's full carrying capacity. Any advantage that a small cow has over a big cow will be swallowed up in nitrates for any farmer who wants to carry as many animals as the land will allow

Who2

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

I had a few June calves last year and sold them as yearling bullocks. Left as much as any weanling I sold last back end. Had good March/April born heifers from last year I sold a few weeks ago and I would have nearly as much got for them last back end and I put a lot of feeding into them unlike the bullocks. Hard to know what the right thing is at times. Heifers averaged 70kg heavier than the bullocks and 30e less!

Early autumn calves are the ones leaving money here. They calve outside and are over all the hardship by the time they go in at the backend. A kilo of meal a day and you'll have nice weanlings with a decent bloom on them to sell in February and March. Cows go on cleaning out after the spring calvers at a minimal cost. My aim for next year is an eight week calving spread over July and August, any bit later and it usually means having to throw the cows a kilo or two of meal for a while to get them back in calf on time but that just eats profits.

grassroot1

Try this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYhutFlWL5M

Count Mondego

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I think she changes her mind when she sees what's on special offer down the local supermarket.

Are the fillet and T-bone steaks from a 440kg carcass all thrown in the bargain bin in the supermarkets?

welton john

not all continental cows have to be 800kg tanks.with a few years breeding a nice handy 550kg cow is achievable.

_Brian

Should the title not be less of a loss ?

Limestone Cowboy

_Brian wrote: »

Should the title not be less of a loss ?

Hilarious, your always banging the same drum.

blue5000

_Brian wrote: »

Should the title not be less of a loss ?

I've been using small cows for the last 10 years here, I'm not a millionare yet. Brian sums it up nicely,
they are cheaper to keep,
easier to get back in calf,
can go to grass earlier, be kept out later without poaching, therefore less silage needed.

Only time you lose out with a small cow is when you slaughter them, but they fatten off grass.

Eggie99

Blue 5000 any harm in asking what bread of "small" cow you keep??? And what do you cross them too????? If you don't want to post openly the formula for a successful Suckler farm pm me please I'd like to start making money from farming

blue5000

Started with A BIG angus bull, crossed him with mostly fresian cows. On those daughters I used a terminal blonde. Then a few years later bought an aubrac because I bulled about 28 angus heifers one year.

Joined ICBF then who were able to tell me my aubrac bull was 5 star maternal. So after that, 5 star angus x fr cows went to the aubrac and poorer aa x fr cows went to the blonde. I still had about 10 fr cows who went in calf to the old angus bull.

Got almost wiped out with tb then in 2014-15. I bought in another maternal angus bull and used him on any blonde (terminal) heifers, and all the aubrac sired heifers/cows.

This year I used some terminal ai on blonde cows, I used the young angus bull on any small blondes and anything related to the aubrac bull. I used the aubrac bull on most of the older angus sired cows. The last few fr cows went with tb.

So it's basically criss cross over and back angus sired cows go in calf to aubrac and vice versa with a bit of terminal ai on low star maternal cows. My angus bulls wouldn't be what a dairy farmer would want. Mature cows are around 550-600kg.

That's basically what I'm at, and no I'm not making a fortune out of it, everything finished at present and I only buy in a stock bull every 3 years roughly. I'm trying to build up numbers to where they were before tb hit that's why there's so much maternal breeding going on.

J.O. Farmer

Count Mondego wrote: »

Are the fillet and T-bone steaks from a 440kg carcass all thrown in the bargain bin in the supermarkets?

Not to the best of my knowledge but then the housewife you refferred to is supposedly looking at the cost of the package of meat so probably not buying many T-bones and fillets anyway but maybe if the retailer has it on special offer she'll splash out.

Bass Reeves

Count Mondego wrote: »

Are the fillet and T-bone steaks from a 440kg carcass all thrown in the bargain bin in the supermarkets?

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Not to the best of my knowledge but then the housewife you refferred to is supposedly looking at the cost of the package of meat so probably not buying many T-bones and fillets anyway but maybe if the retailer has it on special offer she'll splash out.

Beef competes against white meat. You will get pork chops for 70c- a euro each and medium sized chicken fillets at about a euro each. Against this you have steak look at most supermarkets and they seem to stock steaks in pack whereby steaks cost 3-4 euro each ie 6-8 for two. 5 euro seems to be a cut off point for a steak.

Special offers are immaterial if they are not in this price band. I see some lads have a huge mental block about this. The average butcher's heifer killed in Ireland is 220-250kgs. most butchers will not kill above this weight. The English and Irish supermarket spec is 280-330 kgs ideally. That is the reality we may not like it but next year we will all learn about it I think.

J.O. Farmer

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Beef competes against white meat. You will get pork chops for 70c- a euro each and medium sized chicken fillets at about a euro each. Against this you have steak look at most supermarkets and they seem to stock steaks in pack whereby steaks cost 3-4 euro each ie 6-8 for two. 5 euro seems to be a cut off point for a steak.

Special offers are immaterial if they are not in this price band. I see some lads have a huge mental block about this. The average butcher's heifer killed in Ireland is 220-250kgs. most butchers will not kill above this weight. The English and Irish supermarket spec is 280-330 kgs ideally. That is the reality we may not like it but next year we will all learn about it I think.

The comment on the steak being on special offer and her splashing out was a bit tongue in cheek.
What you're saying is correct and if the housewife goes in to buy beef but there's 2 chickens for a fiver I think chicken is going to be on the menu. However if she goes in and one of the cheaper cuts of steak is on offer that might make it onto the menu in place of mince.

Ard_MC

Sure she rearing a couple of calves..of course she is going to eat more compared to a cow thats rearing 1!!!