Is it possible to debate with feminist groups or feminists regarding common goals?

steddyeddy

Every time I see a debate with a self professed feminist on some issue there seems to be either a backlash of people representing men's groups or simply a desire to bring some issues that effect men to light. Now on both sides of the debate you'll get lunatics e.g. Milo et al. Now women do lack rights in some parts of the world and men do face issues because of their gender such as child custody and suicide rates ect.

Now both advocacy groups disagree with or resent some of the claims the other is making. When men talk about suicide some feminists say the fault is with men's gender roles and some men disagree with feminists on exactly what defines oppression against women.

Can there be reasoned debate between the two groups to bring about common goals i.e. equality or are some people just looking to vent or be outraged?

silverharp

I guess you would need to have discussions about discussions . for instance I think its possible to have a reasoned debate with a feminist who acknowledges that men and women have different ranges of abilities and "wants" . I don't think it possible to have a reasoned debate with a feminist that thinks our maleness and femaleness are total constructs

ancapailldorcha

Of course it is! The only caveat is that the trolling which is promoted by certain news outlets and social media is removed as it is prohibitive to constructive debate. The feminists I've met have fairly reasonable goals; repealing the 8th, free from judgement based on their appearances, ending sexualisation of girls, etc... The problem is that social media promotes vanity and narcissism which is anathema to debate. Professional trolling unfortunately sells and does so very well hence the wide array of trendy feministas, PUAs, Milo, etc... This sort of binary tribalisation (Gender war, Trump/Clinton, etc...) needs to stop and stop soon. Here is a good video on the subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc

bb1234567

steddyeddy wrote: »

Every time I see a debate with a self professed feminist on some issue there seems to be either a backlash of people representing men's groups or simply a desire to bring some issues that effect men to light. Now on both sides of the debate you'll get lunatics e.g. Milo et al. Now women do lack rights in some parts of the world and men do face issues because of their gender such as child custody and suicide rates ect.

Now both advocacy groups disagree with or resent some of the claims the other is making. When men talk about suicide some feminists say the fault is with men's gender roles and some men disagree with feminists on exactly what defines oppression against women.

Can there be reasoned debate between the two groups to bring about common goals i.e. equality or are some people just looking to vent or be outraged?

Makes me laugh when women blame mens gender roles when they support so many of them. How many times have you heard stuff like I like manly strong men from women, yes men also support these gender roles in equal part but to blame it solly on men is ridiculous

Outlaw Pete

With "moderate feminists" online you can have reasoned debate, for sure, but there is little or no point with debating with those type of feminists as they are not feminists with any power or influence. The feminists that do wouldn't waste their time debating with dissenting voices anyway and pretty much live within a bubble. A bubble where they are very very happy to remain by the way and given that they have society's empathetic ear 24/7 within it, who could blame them.

I've seen lots of third wave feminists lose debates on news channels and TV shows down the years but it changed nothing. Nobody cared. The die (for what is happening today) was cast a very very long time ago and even the so called 'anti-third-wave-feminists' like Christina Hoff Sommers and Camille Paglia etc (that do still have a little tinch of influence) still struggle to be heard (both literally and figuratively) and so what hope anyone else. It's a pessimistic view I know but some things are too far in motion to be stopped and instead can only be weathered... for the time being at least.

lazybones32

steddyeddy wrote: »

Can there be reasoned debate between the two groups to bring about common goals i.e. equality or are some people just looking to vent or be outraged?

Seeing as feminism advocates for Women's rights only, I can't see any common ground that hasn't already been legislated for. Why in the World should I canvass or lobby for Laws that are privileging one sex over the other...all in the name of equality?

Pawwed Rig

You will rarely see reasonable debate in the media as the moderate normal voice
do not make good TV. The extremist produce a much more marketable argument and when you consider that the go to people that make up the panels are themselves media figures that occupy the extremes then there can only be one outcome.
Have these debates with the normal people of the world. Listen and be heard. Try to ignore the hystericals.

H3llR4iser

steddyeddy wrote: »

Now women do lack rights in some parts of the world..

That is probably one of the most important and most overlooked points. While the feminist discussion harps on about some stupid poster in a train station or work issues that cold hard data and statistic prove to be non existent or self-inflicted, young women are denied a basic education, sold into marriage at 10 years old and even slain by their siblings for "bringing shame to the family" - sometimes right under our noses. Of course, the excuse that "ah shur, it's just that they have a different culture, we can't interfere!" makes it all right...

steddyeddy wrote: »

...some men disagree with feminists on exactly what defines oppression against women.

I find most of the classic feminist arguments to be fairly offensive and discriminatory...towards women; They basically depict women as both mentally and emotionally frail, delicate, ready to break with the smallest of breezes. It does feel to me like the most vocal of the feminist groups/activists don't actually pursue any equality and want the idea of women always needing "protection" to persist...otherwise, their own role would become redundant.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

...free from judgement based on their appearances, ending sexualisation of girls, etc...

When addressing these "issues", emotional reactions need to be left behind and a rational approach should be pursued.

The very first thing to realize is that all of these issues are not strictly women's issues anymore, they affect both gender at an equal level, but it's usually happening that the proverbial "blind eye" is turned when the "damaged" party doesn't happen to be a woman.

This often results in reverse double standards - the most obvious example is the one regarding overweight people; A man will always and continuously be called up and insulted about it, while we have "body image acceptance" groups and movements for women. Not getting into the merits, just pointing out the different attitudes.

Same goes, say, for ads and posters - oddly, people seem to only notice and deem "damaging" or "insulting" the ones with thin, athletic female models and seem to have a built-in blinkers for the ones showing bare chested, chiseled-muscles-where-no-human-should-have-any guys...

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The problem is that social media promotes vanity and narcissism which is anathema to debate. Professional trolling unfortunately sells and does so very well hence the wide array of trendy feministas, PUAs, Milo, etc... This sort of binary tribalisation (Gender war, Trump/Clinton, etc...) needs to stop and stop soon.

And that's the point, but the phenomena isn't going to stop anytime soon. "Proper" feminism, the one that recognizes there are issue both sides that can be addressed, isn't ever going to beat the sensationalist cr@p in any debate. It's the so called "mud-slinging machine" of debate - no matter if what you say is right or wrong, as long as it plays with people's emotional chords and swings them in your favour. We live in the age of factual irreleveance afterall, ask Nigel Farage or Donald Trump...

Letree

Any articles yet gloating about the girls wiping the floor with the boys in the leaving cert? The common goal should be to ensure both are doing well. But its not presented as an issue at all when the boys do worse. Its seen as a welcome victory for the girls.

ancapailldorcha

H3llR4iser wrote: »

That is probably one of the most important and most overlooked points. While the feminist discussion harps on about some stupid poster in a train station or work issues that cold hard data and statistic prove to be non existent or self-inflicted, young women are denied a basic education, sold into marriage at 10 years old and even slain by their siblings for "bringing shame to the family" - sometimes right under our noses. Of course, the excuse that "ah shur, it's just that they have a different culture, we can't interfere!" makes it all right...

I'm given to agree with you here. The straight white male remains the only socially acceptable target in society today.

H3llR4iser wrote: »

I find most of the classic feminist arguments to be fairly offensive and discriminatory...towards women; They basically depict women as both mentally and emotionally frail, delicate, ready to break with the smallest of breezes. It does feel to me like the most vocal of the feminist groups/activists don't actually pursue any equality and want the idea of women always needing "protection" to persist...otherwise, their own role would become redundant.

+1

H3llR4iser wrote: »

When addressing these "issues", emotional reactions need to be left behind and a rational approach should be pursued.

The very first thing to realize is that all of these issues are not strictly women's issues anymore, they affect both gender at an equal level, but it's usually happening that the proverbial "blind eye" is turned when the "damaged" party doesn't happen to be a woman.

This often results in reverse double standards - the most obvious example is the one regarding overweight people; A man will always and continuously be called up and insulted about it, while we have "body image acceptance" groups and movements for women. Not getting into the merits, just pointing out the different attitudes.

Same goes, say, for ads and posters - oddly, people seem to only notice and deem "damaging" or "insulting" the ones with thin, athletic female models and seem to have a built-in blinkers for the ones showing bare chested, chiseled-muscles-where-no-human-should-have-any guys...

Fair points but some of these disproportionately affect women. There has been a multi billion pound beauty industry telling women they don't look good enough for decades now. Yeah, men have to deal with a measure of it as well but the recent bodybuilding craze is just that, recent. Not all issues affect every demographic equally.

H3llR4iser wrote: »

And that's the point, but the phenomena isn't going to stop anytime soon. "Proper" feminism, the one that recognizes there are issue both sides that can be addressed, isn't ever going to beat the sensationalist cr@p in any debate. It's the so called "mud-slinging machine" of debate - no matter if what you say is right or wrong, as long as it plays with people's emotional chords and swings them in your favour. We live in the age of factual irreleveance afterall, ask Nigel Farage or Donald Trump...

This is more about the nature of the beast and discourse as a whole than specifically feminism. I was talking about feminists I have met in real life, women with actual jobs as opposed to sinecures moaning about patriarchy in a international publications. Pawwed Rig made the point that calm, respectful discourse makes for poor viewing. I wouldn't 100% agree with this but society does seem to be making a beeline for lowest-common-denominator, braindead level of debate where the idiot is glorified and the expert vilified.

Fair points but some of these disproportionately affect women. There has been a multi billion pound beauty industry telling women they don't look good enough for decades now. Yeah, men have to deal with a measure of it as well but the recent bodybuilding craze is just that, recent. Not all issues affect every demographic equally.

Men have always had their own side of this. I'm 6ft3in tall and built like a surfboard. I'm also quite gentle about physical contact. Trust me, that other men often throw their perception of what a man should be (physcially strong, manly behavior, etc), just as much as women.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

Men have always had their own side of this. I'm 6ft3in tall and built like a surfboard. I'm also quite gentle about physical contact. Trust me, that other men often throw their perception of what a man should be (physcially strong, manly behavior, etc), just as much as women.

Think I've only had that happen to me once or twice my entire life.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Think I've only had that happen to me once or twice my entire life.

It happened to me a lot in Ireland, and Australia... but then I think there's a strong lad's culture which I never fitted into.

El_Duderino 09

That's not true in light of all the progress towards equality in recent decades. The mad yolks are more entertaining and are much more likely to get on TV. Most feminism takes place without any fanfare and becomes the norm. That's why the rate of women in decent jobs is on the increase and the likes.

The squeaky wheel draws the attention but the other wheels are doing all the work.

Charizard

For me Feminists and there male equivalents are some of the most ignorant people around, I see them in the same light as Black/White/Etc power people. What on earth makes these people think they deserve this special treatment, just because they were wronged in the past doesnt mean they deserve something for it now. Like Egalitarians are guys you can get behind, they want everyone treated the same. But it will be a cold day in hell where Ill be ok for a woman to get a position over me because shes a woman.

Charizard

Deleted User wrote: »

Men have always had their own side of this. I'm 6ft3in tall and built like a surfboard. I'm also quite gentle about physical contact. Trust me, that other men often throw their perception of what a man should be (physcially strong, manly behavior, etc), just as much as women.

I get this, I never drank and it was seen as super strange, the sure how are you going to get a woman got thrown around a awful lot. Id rather sit at home and read a book tbh than that. It was only when I went to Australia I was comfortable being me, now I dont struggle with it at all but back in the day it was a big deal to me