Quotes from Builders

ms34

Hi,
This will be the first of hopefully not many threads I'll start as I enter into refurbing a house I've bought. It's all new to me and I'm not particularly handy diy wise but hopefully it will go smoothly.
So the house is small and I'm looking to extend it out the back. This extra space will be a dining room and downstairs bathroom. I've had a few builders come and talk to me and I'm waiting on quotes to come. Its all within the planning regulations and seeing as I'm only putting in three extra walls and a flat roof (not enough height for a pitch) I'm not going to engage a architect.
What I'm wondering is if they quote say 20000 are they then obliged to stick to that? I know there can be unforeseen circumstances and I will keep money aside for that possibility but how rigid are quotes?
Thanks

Dudda

Are they working off the back of a matchbox or do you have detailed drawings? If it's 'I met a builder and we agreed a price of €20,000' then it will probably cost you €30,000 to €40,000 and as you have no experience/not particularly handy diy wise and have nobody overseeing the builder so you could end up getting a very poor job that doesn't comply with building regulations for that price. If you have detailed drawings done by an architect or engineer the builder will review them and they could quote €25,000 but you'd end up paying €25,000 which could go up to €30,000 if you start changing stuff but you'll still have a very good quality finished project.

Why would you be willing to spend so much money but not have someone to design, draw, oversee it? You need these people with knowledge on your site when unforeseen items arise.

Gumbo

A quote is just that, a quote.
You won't know what your getting, what finish, what windows? What insulation?
Who is designing the structural elements?
Will you expect a certificate of compliance on completion?

How will you know that builder A and builder B are quoting for the same finish. One might quite 20k and the other 23k but one could be giving you 5k worth of materials extra above and beyond.

At the very least, I would have a technician prepare a plan, rough specification and then get the builders to quote from that.

Calahonda52

well a flat roofed extension is going to make the existing house very dark.
Consider an A roof ?? to existing with a good wide valley and a velux or 2 to throw light into the existing.

as above re the quotes, the less detail you agree and tie down the greater the scope for getting screwed under all the headings mentioned above, simple as.
Penny wise pound foolish

JonathonS

A quote, if accepted, is a legal contract, an estimate is just a guess and is not binding, so be be sure to get it in writing, headed "quotation".
having said that, as you will be spending c€1,500+ per sq meter it is definitely being penny wise and pound foolish not to have a professional on board to guide you.

ms34

Hi,
Firstly thanks for the replies and secondly apologies for taking so long to reply.

As regards the drawings, I have given the builders drawings I have done myself of how I want the extension to look. Its nothing too fancy. Essentially its one big room divided into two allowing for a small bathroom. There was previously a downstairs bathroom so luckily the plumbing is already there and only has to be extended out. Same with heating. I have already had the house rewired and got the electrician to run the necessary cables out and upgrade the fuse box. I have done all the measurements as regards the planning and am well within the limits.

All the builders who have quoted on it are very experienced and all come recommended from friends and family. I have seen the quality of the work and have been in to see the "builders finish" with two of them. They have all met with me and seen the plans and are happy that it makes perfect sense to them.

With the roof I am a little stuck. Now that builders have been in they all say the flat roof is my only option. Around me there are many extensions in other properties and all have flat roofs. All also have said velux windows at an angle will give sufficient light. All of the other extensions have this and I have dropped in to my neighbours and asked to see them and they all do give plenty of light. This coupled with the fact the back of the house, except for the bathroom which will have its own window, will be nearly all glass makes me confident there will be plenty of light.

The replies here have been very helpful and I thank you all again. I have definitely been considering using my extra fund to bring in an architect since starting the thread but is there nothing to be said for trusting in my builders experience. I know what I want from the job and will be in the house every day so will be able to speak daily with the builder about where we are on the job and if he is encountering any issues.

sydthebeat

What flat roof finish are these trusted builders proposing?

If any mention touch on felt or butuyl rubber run away.

ms34

JonathonS wrote: »

A quote, if accepted, is a legal contract, an estimate is just a guess and is not binding, so be be sure to get it in writing, headed "quotation".
having said that, as you will be spending c€1,500+ per sq meter it is definitely being penny wise and pound foolish not to have a professional on board to guide you.

Thanks for the info on the quote.

ms34

sydthebeat wrote: »

What flat roof finish are these trusted builders proposing?

If any mention touch on felt or butuyl rubber run away.

I haven't got the quotes in front of me but can I ask why I should run away from these?

Dudda

ms34 wrote: »

sydthebeat wrote: »

What flat roof finish are these trusted builders proposing?

If any mention torch on felt or butuyl rubber run away.

I haven't got the quotes in front of me but can I ask why I should run away from these?

This is again why I think you need someone on your side. We can preempt some items here to look out for like roof coverings but you really need an architect, technician, engineer, clerk of works or even a friend, cousin, relation with good building knowledge and experience that can look over the quotes and visit the site 3-4 times during construction.

Builders which are "very experienced and all come recommended from friends and family" are generally builders who are easy to work with and friendly but that doesn't mean they know or build to current regulations. While the work might look great it when completed doesn't mean their structurally sound or it'll protect you and your family if a fire breaks out.

DOCARCH

Dudda wrote: »

Builders which are "very experienced and all come recommended from friends and family"

Generally builders with good plasterers and painters. Nice finish!

Dudda wrote: »

While the work might look great it when completed doesn't mean their structurally sound or it'll protect you and your family if a fire breaks out.

+1

tcif

It doesn't have to be an architect - an engineer can provide you with a detailed set of drawings, the specifications the builders need to comply with to meet current regulations and sign off on the compliance at the end of the project.

You may not care about the paperwork now but if you ever need or want to sell - and it's very hard to ever say never - an uncertified extension will cause you huge headaches as banks don't want to give mortgages for them.

Turtle_

Op, an architect pays for themselves. Seriously, you're being VERY foolish by refusing to take ANY professional advice

Just because the builder knows how you want it to look doesn't mean that enough detail is specified. What happens if they dig out foundations and hit sand? What type of insulation? What about ventilation? How do you know the radon barrier will be correctly tucked and folded? What about the flashing around opes?

You're going about this foolishly. A professional will not charge a lot for this type of job and they will ensure that the end result is compliant and better than what you would get by yourself. Look at all the responses you're getting - people are unanimous in stating that you need someone on your side. There's a reason for that. I work with lots of builders and architects on lots of different jobs and can tell you from experience that having someone on your side will pay for itself.

ms34

Thanks for your response. I have taken the day off work today to meet with an architect recommended to me by my builder of choice. They have worked together previously so I imagine they are a good team.
The help and advice given here has been excellent so many thanks to all who have contributed.

Turtle_ wrote: »

Op, an architect pays for themselves. Seriously, you're being VERY foolish by refusing to take ANY professional advice

Just because the builder knows how you want it to look doesn't mean that enough detail is specified. What happens if they dig out foundations and hit sand? What type of insulation? What about ventilation? How do you know the radon barrier will be correctly tucked and folded? What about the flashing around opes?

You're going about this foolishly. A professional will not charge a lot for this type of job and they will ensure that the end result is compliant and better than what you would get by yourself. Look at all the responses you're getting - people are unanimous in stating that you need someone on your side. There's a reason for that. I work with lots of builders and architects on lots of different jobs and can tell you from experience that having someone on your side will pay for itself.

BryanF

ms34 wrote: »

Thanks for your response. I have taken the day off work today to meet with an architect recommended to me by my builder of choice. They have worked together previously so I imagine they are a good team.
The help and advice given here has been excellent so many thanks to all who have contributed.

Why take a day of work?
Can't you meet three architects in the evening time?
Get three quotes and compare services?
Is it a good idea to have your builder recommending an architect?

DOCARCH

BryanF wrote: »

Can't you meet three architects in the evening time?

:rolleyes: Architects have lives too you know!

Turtle_

BryanF wrote: »

Why take a day of work?
Can't you meet three architects in the evening time?
Get three quotes and compare services?
Is it a good idea to have your builder recommending an architect?

Why meet three architects? Usually you meet with an architect, if you like their ideas and get along with them, then go ahead and work with them. Architects don't competitively tender for business!

As for builder recommending an architect, it's not necessarily a bad idea. It's someone that the builder gets along with and will be happy working with, so if the client gets along with the architect then great, no tension before the works even start. It also means you're likely to get someone who does a lot of similar work. What I reckon you're getting at, though, is a potential conflict of interest... I wouldn't be so hugely concerned about that - the architect is employed by the client, not by the builder. They act for their client. Plus, OP, it'll make it easier to sell down the line if you have all the proper certification done for the works at the time of the works.

mrsWhippy

Turtle_ wrote: »

Why meet three architects? Usually you meet with an architect, if you like their ideas and get along with them, then go ahead and work with them. Architects don't competitively tender for business!

As for builder recommending an architect, it's not necessarily a bad idea. It's someone that the builder gets along with and will be happy working with, so if the client gets along with the architect then great, no tension before the works even start. It also means you're likely to get someone who does a lot of similar work. What I reckon you're getting at, though, is a potential conflict of interest... I wouldn't be so hugely concerned about that - the architect is employed by the client, not by the builder. They act for their client. Plus, OP, it'll make it easier to sell down the line if you have all the proper certification done for the works at the time of the works.

I would meet at least 3 architects. In fact, I think I met 5 before hiring someone for my new build.

It's important to find someone who has the same design ideas as you, has the knowledge around designing energy efficient and airtight houses, and someone who you will be happy to work with for maybe 2+ years.

average_runner

DOCARCH wrote: »

:rolleyes: Architects have lives too you know!

Yes but if they want the work they meet in the evening or at the weekend. At the end of the day you go out of your way for the customer and not the other way around!

DOCARCH

average_runner wrote: »

Yes but if they want the work they meet in the evening or at the weekend. At the end of the day you go out of your way for the customer and not the other way around!

Hmmm.

I've never been able to meet my accountant, solicitor or dentist in the evenings or at weekends?

sydthebeat

average_runner wrote: »

Yes but if they want the work they meet in the evening or at the weekend. At the end of the day you go out of your way for the customer and not the other way around!

want work????

architectural offices are incredible busy these days.
some might agree to meet by appointment on a saturday morning...
but dont expect every architect to do 'after office' hours during the week as par for the course.

the vast majority wont.

Calahonda52

ms34 wrote: »

Thanks for your response. I have taken the day off work today to meet with an architect recommended to me by my builder of choice. They have worked together previously so I imagine they are a good team.
....

yep, 2 of them against one of you, with your chips on the table.: this forum is littered with these sort of arrangements, many of whom go sour.

RoryW

Where are you based ?

re architect, if one is local he may be able to meet you on his way home ? Or an hour before finishing work so no need to take a day off.

re meeting architects, make sure if it is an architect that you want that they are architects ! I met a number of people who alluded to being architects and they were architect technicians (or technologists as they call themselves now). So check the register of architects.

( I appreciate architects will say "pick me" and technologists will say "save money and pick me" and give you their own pros and cons - but that is another story)