The Big Guy Problem

creeper1

Anyone have an experience like this?

BTW I am not in Ireland anymore so this isn't a local club.

You have been doing bjj or judo for a few years. You are a most def a hobbyist. You may do it once or twice a week and sometimes life or work gets in the way and you take long breaks.

Nevertheless you think you can handle yourself against any beginner. I mean you have experience and that.

Then comes into your club a very strong Russian or Pole - actually it could be any nationality it just so happens big, tough Eastern Europeans was my experience.

These guys are strong but have no training. You can tell by the way they move - all power little in the way of technique.

However being underneath these guys is no fun. And dealing with the "spaz" type movements is actually scary.

Embarrassingly I have to say to them just so the beginner has no mistakes - "you know tap means submit right" . Not for his safety but my own.

And this is not just a problem at club level - even at the very top you had Brock Lesnar beating the submissions magician Frank Mir.

Don't get me wrong I think bjj is one of the best arts there is but even that has limitations.

The Codemaster

You're comparing Brock, an NCAA heavyweight wrestling champion to someone that has "all power little in the way of technique" with "spaz" movements?

RoboRat

I am a reasonably big guy 6 foot, approx 100kg and that generally means that when the beasts arrive at the club, they are passed to me.

I am 39 with 2 rebuilt knees and carrying a multitude of old injuries. I do BJJ for fun and exercise and like yourself, work and family often get in the way. I have trained with the type of lads you are talking about and it can be dangerous and very uncomfortable but I find that I just have to weather the storm and let them tire themselves out before going to work. I tend to air on the side of cautious and if they start getting a sub, I will tap as they might not be able to control their leverage and I have no issues with tapping to a newbie to save a broken arm or worse.

It used to bug me, but now I just use this to my advantage and test myself. Their inexperience generally tends to leave massive openings for sweeps and subs and I just work with what I get and let them power out until they gas... and they will gas. Once I get a good position, I then use as much pressure as possible and work slowly and methodically to get what I am after and leave as few gaps as possible.

Every MA has limitations but when you look at the likes of Marcelo, miyao brothers, Jeff Glover etc... those guys are small and they are well able to handle larger guys. I also train with a lot of guys who are a lot smaller and can deal with my size advantage.

One thing generally stands is that larger guys, especially lifters have power and pressure but lack in regards to dexterity, speed and stamina (this is not always the case though and there are plenty of guys who have everything) so IMO, that somewhat levels out the playing field.

Anyhow, that's my 2 cents :-)

darced

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creeper1

I always thought Brock Lesnar was a man of sheer power. That his thing was not technique as such but muscle.

So I could rebut "there was nothing to stop Frank Mir taking Brock Lesnar's back and chocking him out/ having his way with him"

It could be I am totally wrong about that since mma involves striking, ground and pound and Brock is a wrestling champion.

It could be a case of comparing apples and oranges.

And yeah i am a hobbyist.

Still I suspect it doesn't always go the skillful guys way.

darced

This post has been deleted.

SVJKarate

creeper1 wrote: »

Then comes into your club a very strong Russian or Pole - actually it could be any nationality it just so happens big, tough Eastern Europeans was my experience.

These guys are strong but have no training. You can tell by the way they move - all power little in the way of technique.

I think this is a universal issue in MA. Inexperienced beginners who have a high level of physical strength are a real challenge, as they are likely to cause injury to themselves or to others in the club. The only safe solution is to ensure they only partner with senior members in the club, so that the chances of injury are reduced. As the "big guy" gains more skill and is more in control of their own actions they are less likely to cause such injuries.

pearsquasher

Interesting topic - Its not really an issue with Bujinkan ( a kinda Japanese jujutsu) because strength is the thing you're trying to discourage from being used most in the encounter. Why? Well if you assume the attacker IS stronger then using weaker strength against them is inherently a bad strategy. (This does't mean you don't improve your strength for its own sake as of course it helps in all other areas other than just brute force). The Big Guy in your club maybe able to power his way through "weaker" beginners but against bigger guys or skilled MAers his power is not what he need to train with. From day one this is managed, so having them mix with other beginners is fine.

So when the new Big Guy starts to use his strength instead of other things (angling, timing, flow, structure, distance, weapons etc), its up to the teacher to notice and get them to stop immediately end-of-story. Because beginners should start off slow too, this is relatively easily reprogrammed. If they keep doing it and other students are feeling the brunt, well they need to tell him first, or the teacher. If he's thick about it well theres other issues going on really and maybe "another art will suit you better".


My most senior student is a massive guy - bloody tree trunk legs and solid as a big rock. He used to power through stuff needlessly. Now he's like a freight-train on a bed of feathers and using all the other good stuff I mentioned to deal with attacks with pretty much zero effort. I graded him recently based on that alone.

creeper1

I used to do Bujinkan or "ninjitsu" as I called it. Is that the same art where Sensei Hatsumi is the head in Japan?

I looked him up. Here is a video of him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIkCyo78myY

This is something I moved far, far away from. It's just not for me anymore. As I say I am looking for a judo or bjj perspective on this.

Chairman Meow

creeper1 wrote: »

I used to do Bujinkan or "ninjitsu" as I called it. Is that the same art where Sensei Hatsumi is the head in Japan?

I looked him up. Here is a video of him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIkCyo78myY

This is something I moved far, far away from. It's just not for me anymore. As I say I am looking for a judo or bjj perspective on this.

Wow. Once youve done BJJ or any "real" MA you really can see through the garbage stuff like thatt is (in terms of real world appication). It certainly looks nice and fancy, and no doubt if id seen that back when i was younger id have been like "wow! that guys a total badass ninja!!" but i feel like even i could double leg that purple haired dude and armbar him now!

As for the big guy thing i think that really just depends on your skill level. I know if a big dude came into the gym tomorrow, on his first day he could probably slam me on the ground and sit on me til the pressure causes me to tap. But my technique is still terrible and im not good at escapes. But someone mroe experienced could handle it alot better, im sure.

cletus

My game plan with those guys you're talking about was always to play a tight conservative open guard (butterflies can work as well) or half guard game at the beginning, let them try and squash you into the ground. Arm drags and sweeps generally present themselves easily enough, as these guys don't really have 'base', and taking the back can be a very good option, as darced suggested. Ibe been able to take the back from an open guard without even arm dragging, because these guys just don't know what you're doing

Mellor

I think the big strong guy with no experience shouldn't be hard to handle for a decent blue belt. Pretty much as darced said;

darced wrote: »

Most good blue belts and any proper purple belt will handle a newcomer of any size easily. There is nothing to stop a good grappler taking a new guys back straight away as they dont know what is going on so cant stop it.

The big guy with a small bit of experience is the real pain the the ass for the novice hobbyist. The big guy can't do much, but he knows enough to not get swept and/or holds the smaller guy in place. The other guy knows he is better at jiu jitsu, but unable to utilize it.

The trade off between size and skill is ongoing. A big blue belt will trouble a smaller purple belt. And so on up the ranks. Nothing is absolute.

creeper1 wrote: »

I always thought Brock Lesnar was a man of sheer power. That his thing was not technique as such but muscle.

So I could rebut "there was nothing to stop Frank Mir taking Brock Lesnar's back and chocking him out/ having his way with him"

It could be I am totally wrong about that since mma involves striking, ground and pound and Brock is a wrestling champion.

You are totally wrong tbh. Brock was an elite collegiate wrestler. 4 time all-american, 4 NCAA national HW champ etc.
The wrestling is on right now on the Olympics, it's absolutely a skill.
Going into that fight, Mir had more submmission experience. But Lesnar probably had more grappling experience.

On a related note, there's a chance that these big eastern european guys have more technique than you realise. They might not move like BJJ guys, but there's other effective ways to move.

Peetrik

SVJKarate wrote: »

The only safe solution is to ensure they only partner with senior members in the club, so that the chances of injury are reduced.

Sparring with some beginner mongo is the absolute last thing I would do either myself or to an experienced club member who might have a fight coming up, it's a guaranteed recipe for injury. Much better to babysit them sparring, telling them to 'stay calm' and 'watch the power' the whole time until they get it.

Mellor wrote: »

The trade off between size and skill is ongoing. A big blue belt will trouble a smaller purple belt. And so on up the ranks. Nothing is absolute.

+1, no such thing as an easy spar against someone who is bigger than you

Ush1

It's all about trying to find gaps where their size isn't such an advantage or where they feel uncomfortable.

I spar kickboxing with a 19 year old black lad who I'd be technically better than, but he's about 5 inches taller than me, heavier and with a much longer reach. Very hard for me to fight him on the outside but on the inside he panics as he's not used to it. The other thing is to move a lot and try to tire them out.