Competitor using our .ie domain name

Seve OB

Just bought a company.

The company has no website, but we are setting one up. It turns out a local competitor has got our website.ie domain name.

it is www.ourname.ie

it is a one page website, with phone number details and one click option, which when you click, you get brought to their website. of a totally different name

whats even more gauling, is the scoundrels are telling everyone in the local business, that we have no gone out of business and they have taken over.

forget about them telling tales, but is there anyway I can get our website back? I though .ie websites were supposed to be very strict on giving only the website to whoever owned the company?

jimmii

They would have needed to be able to make some form of valid claim on the domain to be able to register it or at least that should be the case. You could try contacting IEDR (complaints@iedr.ie) regarding the decision to issue them the URL and show your claim to it.

Very strange for them to be telling people they have taken over surely it will look bad when it becomes apparent that clearly isn't the case?

mahoganygas

Seve OB wrote:

Just bought a company.

How was this not the first thing you checked when buying the company?

MeatTwoVeg

mahoganygas wrote:

How was this not the first thing you checked when buying the company?

So OP should invent a time machine? Useful suggestion.

mrawkward

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

So OP should invent a time machine? Useful suggestion.

This the most basic commercial due dilligence that you can even do yourself. However it is what it is and the task at hand is to stop them misrepresening OP/themselves. Cease and desist letter from a solicitor in addition to domain register complaint.

Seve OB

mahoganygas wrote: »

How was this not the first thing you checked when buying the company?

mahoganygas wrote: »

How was this not the first thing you checked when buying the company?

Of course we checked it. We have secured .com a couple of months ago but only closed deal last week so now it is ours.

Are you suggesting we should not have gone ahead with the deal because someone else had control of the website?

:rolleyes:

jimmii

Seve OB wrote: »

Of course we checked it. We have secured .com a couple of months ago but only closed deal last week so now it is ours.

Are you suggesting we should not have gone ahead with the deal because someone else had control of the website?

:rolleyes:

Its just some random new account going round posting on random things they likely have no idea about.

elastico

Seve OB wrote: »

Of course we checked it. We have secured .com a couple of months ago but only closed deal last week so now it is ours.

Are you suggesting we should not have gone ahead with the deal because someone else had control of the website?

:rolleyes:

How long have they had control of the domain name?

Did you know, when negotiating your purchase, that the domain name was not included?

Seve OB

elastico wrote: »

How long have they had control of the domain name?

Did you know, when negotiating your purchase, that the domain name was not included?

Don't know and yes.

What has that got to do with my questions?

ironclaw

I wish you the best of luck with IEDR, they wouldn't honor a domain when we had a clear business requirement for it e.g. Registered business, trading etc. We even proved the owner tried to sell it, against IEDR regulations, and they didn't help.

Great agency with good regulation, little enforcement however.

smash

Did the company you purchased operate under that .ie domain name when you bought it?

Seve OB

smash wrote: »

Did the company you purchased operate under that .ie domain name when you bought it?

no. they had no website before

smash

Seve OB wrote: »

no. they had no website before

Well before you bought the company that you bought, did the current owners of the .ie operate under that domain.

Seve OB

smash wrote: »

Well before you bought the company that you bought, did the current owners of the .ie operate under that domain.

yes. I thought I made all that pretty clear earlier on

although, not that they operate anything on the website, it just has a click one button, which redirects you to their website of a totally different name

mrawkward

what have you done so far?

smash

Seve OB wrote: »

yes. I thought I made all that pretty clear earlier on

although, not that they operate anything on the website, it just has a click one button, which redirects you to their website of a totally different name

Well no, you said "It turns out a local competitor has got our website.ie domain name" when the truth is that they always had the domain name and always used it disregarding if it's a one page website or not. If this is the case then they clearly had a right to the domain and have been using it legitimately.

Bear in mind it costs only €20 to register a business name in order to obtain a .ie domain. A business will also have the right to register a .ie domain if it's a phrase that relates to their business. Hell, I've even successfully registered .ie domains for not-for-profit hobby websites without having any related registered business name.

Seve OB

mrawkward wrote: »

what have you done so far?

Not much. Some searches on the web, discussions with my colleagues on a plan of action. I can't and won't do anything without laying out a plan of action first and want to get as much information as possible first before we jump to quick and make mistakes. I called IEDR and they have told me to send them an email and they will look into it.

smash wrote: »

Well no, you said "It turns out a local competitor has got our website.ie domain name" when the truth is that they always had the domain name and always used it disregarding if it's a one page website or not. If this is the case then they clearly had a right to the domain and have been using it legitimately.

Bear in mind it costs only €20 to register a business name in order to obtain a .ie domain. A business will also have the right to register a .ie domain if it's a phrase that relates to their business. Hell, I've even successfully registered .ie domains for not-for-profit hobby websites without having any related registered business name.

I've checked. They have it for 3 years. They don't have any business name registered. They are not a company. They are a sole trader operating themselves under a completely different name.

I appreciate they have control of it and it will be hard to convince anyone they don't deserve it, but I won't lie down and roll over without a fight

smash

Seve OB wrote: »

I've checked. They have it for 3 years. They don't have any business name registered. They are not a company. They are a sole trader operating themselves under a completely different name.

It is a term or phrase that relates to their business offerings?

GerardKeating

Seve OB wrote: »

Just bought a company.

The company has no website, but we are setting one up. It turns out a local competitor has got our website.ie domain name.

Seve OB wrote: »

I've checked. They have it for 3 years. They don't have any business name registered. They are not a company. They are a sole trader operating themselves under a completely different name.

So it's more like your company is using their name ???

elastico

Seve OB wrote: »

Don't know and yes.

What has that got to do with my questions?

Your original post stated somebody is using "our" domain name when in fact that's not the case.

I don't know what you can do to be honest, apart from offer to buy it from them. They own it and are entitled to use it as they choose.

Seve OB

GerardKeating wrote: »

So it's more like your company is using their name ???

No. Our company is going over 20 years and the name is well known. I have already pointed out, they have a completely different company name. they have control of a website with our company name.ie which redirects traffic to their website of different name. :rolleyes:

Seve OB

elastico wrote: »

Your original post stated somebody is using "our" domain name when in fact that's not the case.

I don't know what you can do to be honest, apart from offer to buy it from them. They own it and are entitled to use it as they choose.

I think my original post was quite clear in spelling out the situation. Yes they own the website. No it is not our website. Yes they are using our name.

They are not allowed to sell it.

smash

So I'll ask again.... It the domain name a term or phrase that relates to their business offerings?

mrawkward

Seems like a straight case of "passing off" irrespective of domain name ownership. One for the leagle eagles, as I earlier advised.

See this http://smallbusinesslawireland.com/tag/passing-off/

FAILSAFE 00

Open a dispute with iedr and seek legal advice.

Seve OB

mrawkward wrote: »

Seems like a straight case of "passing off" irrespective of domain name ownership. One for the leagle eagles, as I earlier advised.

See this http://smallbusinesslawireland.com/tag/passing-off/

Thanks for this. Looks like an interesting read.

Why is everyone else so hell bent on following in your namesake and being awkward. I simply came on asking here in the hope I might get a bit of helpful advice and most of the responses have been pretty petty.

Atlantic Dawn

Is your company name actually registered to your business and this exactly matches the .ie domain name they are using?
If your business was called a generic term lets say Carparts and they had the domain carparts.ie it would be very difficult to argue that you had exclusive use of the term in the country.

Seve OB

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Is your company name actually registered to your business and this exactly matches the .ie domain name they are using?

yes

dbran

Hi

Registering a .ie domain name is on a first come first served basis. It does not matter if you are in business 20 years and they are just newcomers.You say they are a competitor of yours and therefore are probably operating in your industry. So it follows that that they more then likely have a legitimate claim to the name that you want. In that case there is not a lot you can do.

You could try and prove that they took the name in bad faith but that will be a very long drawn out process and may be very difficult to prove not to mention expensive. They are clearly using it as a re-direct so this is unlikely to succeed.

You could also sue them if you believe they are attempting to pass themselves off as you but again, an expensive, long drawn out and a difficult process. You will easily see a few €1000 go by in legal fees without anything to show for it.

So, your only option is to take stock of what online presence that you do have. How can you make it a better offering then your rivals. How can you make it rank higher in the search engines?

Otherwise this bird has flown I am afraid.

dbran

Seve OB

dbran wrote: »

Hi

Registering a .ie domain name is on a first come first served basis. It does not matter if you are in business 20 years and they are just newcomers.You say they are a competitor of yours and therefore are probably operating in your industry. So it follows that that they more then likely have a legitimate claim to the name that you want. In that case there is not a lot you can do.

You could try and prove that they took the name in bad faith but that will be a very long drawn out process and may be very difficult to prove not to mention expensive. They are clearly using it as a re-direct so this is unlikely to succeed.

You could also sue them if you believe they are attempting to pass themselves off as you but again, an expensive, long drawn out and a difficult process. You will easily see a few €1000 go by in legal fees without anything to show for it.

So, your only option is to take stock of what online presence that you do have. How can you make it a better offering then your rivals. How can you make it rank higher in the search engines?

Otherwise this bird has flown I am afraid.

dbran

thank you. good constructive answer. I totally see what you are saying regarding industry, but the website is more company name specific than industry.

Obviously I don't want to give names away here or anything, but I will start a dispute process with IEDR soon and update on any results.

Thanks for the information

Mumha

Seve OB wrote: »

thank you. good constructive answer. I totally see what you are saying regarding industry, but the website is more company name specific than industry.

Obviously I don't want to give names away here or anything, but I will start a dispute process with IEDR soon and update on any results.

Thanks for the information

If you get nowhere, and is a continued cause for irritation, would it not be worth a name change of the company where you can secure .ie & .com ? Maybe a similar name even....

smash

Seve OB wrote: »

the website is more company name specific than industry.

I feel as though you're being deliberately evasive here as you still haven't answered me. Is the domain name a term or phrase that relates to their business offerings?

mrawkward

The other guy has much to fear from a passing off action. As a sole trader, all his personal assets are on the line. My guess is dbrans advice is too windy, go in full on, hard and fast...he will buckle like a baby. Far too much poncing around on the topic here on soft side issues... real business people just do it

smash

mrawkward wrote: »

The other guy has much to fear from a passing off action. As a sole trader, all his personal assets are on the line. My guess is dbrans advice is too windy, go in full on, hard and fast...he will buckle like a baby. Far too much poncing around on the topic here on soft side issues... real business people just do it

This is probably the worst advice so far.

mrawkward

smash wrote: »

This is probably the worst advice so far.

That you do not even understand that I gave solid commercial pragmatic advice speaks volumes....

smash

mrawkward wrote: »

That you do not even understand that I gave solid commercial pragmatic advice speaks volumes....

When you suggest "go in full on, hard and fast...he will buckle like a baby." Without even knowing the details speaks volumes about you. Do you work for a debt collector or something?

The owner of the domain had a claim to the domain or they would not have got it. They've also operated a page on the domain for over 3 years now without objection.

This guy bought a business without proper investigation relating to the future web channel of the business which he deems important. He has now decided that he doesn't like what a competitor is doing and what they have been legitimately doing for the last few years. And your advice is to jump in feet first and bully them? Give me a break...

Seve OB

smash wrote: »

I feel as though you're being deliberately evasive here as you still haven't answered me. Is the domain name a term or phrase that relates to their business offerings?

I am being evasive as I don't want to give the game away. The website name is the name of our company. It has a reference to what we do.

Axwell

Seve OB wrote: »

I've checked. They have it for 3 years. They don't have any business name registered. They are not a company. They are a sole trader operating themselves under a completely different name.

Are you 100% certain of this and have done thorough checks? If they have been awarded the .ie domain name you can be 99% certain they have a business name registered that is close enough to the domain or shows a clear relationship between the business name and the domain or they would not have been approved it.

If that's the case then they will have a legitimate entitlement to it and have had it for 3 years without objection. You may find it hard to convince the IEDR otherwise but that would be the best route initially and see what they say before considering legal action that could end up costing you a lot of money or a full on hard and fast approach that could bite you in the ass if you don't have all the facts.

Seve OB

smash wrote: »

When you suggest "go in full on, hard and fast...he will buckle like a baby." Without even knowing the details speaks volumes about you. Do you work for a debt collector or something?

The owner of the domain had a claim to the domain or they would not have got it. They've also operated a page on the domain for over 3 years now without objection.

This guy bought a business without proper investigation relating to the future web channel of the business which he deems important. He has now decided that he doesn't like what a competitor is doing and what they have been legitimately doing for the last few years. And your advice is to jump in feet first and bully them? Give me a break...

Again. We did investigate. We knew the position. It is not a decision we just now made that we don't like what they are doing, we always knew the lie of the land. We decided it was not a deal breaker and the venture was still worth undertaking. We paid out a lot of money for the company and paid a lot of money doing due diligence.

I only came on here to ask if anyone knew how we might be able to do stake a claim on the website. I have found out that it is not going to be easy, but that I can register a complaint and it probably won't go any further. But I will lodge a complaint and when I know what the outcome is I will let you know. Till then, unless anyone else has some information that can be of benefit to me, I'm done.

mrawkward

If the OP is to be believed, the competitor is diverting the goodwill of his new business dishonestly to his own benefit and to the detriment of the OP. That they are using a website/domain name that may or may not be validly held is incidental to the issue of passing off. The means is not the real issue but rather the actions. If the OP is sure of his facts, he instructs solicitors to go in hard, the damage limitation is time critical. Expecting the .ie domain regulator to act quickly and effectively is simply not going to solve the damage being done quickly, if ever!

smash

Seve OB wrote: »

I am being evasive as I don't want to give the game away. The website name is the name of our company. It has a reference to what we do.

And it has reference to what they do?

ironclaw

My understanding of the OP's position is this:

OP is called Bray Cleaners

Other business is called Wicklow Cleaners

BrayCleaners.ie is currently a single page that directs a customer to WicklowCleaners.ie

Unless the customer is being mislead on BrayCleaners.ie to believe they are interacting with the OPs business, I can't see any passing off occurring.

It would be quite different if:

OP is called 'Do It All Cleaners'

Other business is called 'DIA Cleaners'

'Do It All Cleaners'.ie is a single page that makes a customer believe they are interacting with the OP, but in fact are redirected to 'DIA Cleaners'.ie

Without more information, its pure speculation.

mrawkward

ironclaw wrote: »

My understanding of the OP's position is this:

OP is called Bray Cleaners

Other business is called Wicklow Cleaners

BrayCleaners.ie is currently a single page that directs a customer to WicklowCleaners.ie

Unless the customer is being mislead on BrayCleaners.ie to believe they are interacting with the OPs business, I can't see any passing off occurring.

It is passing off if a reasonable person were to look at the site and think they were dealing with BrayCleaners!
Add to that from post #1 "is the scoundrels are telling everyone in the local business, that we have no gone out of business and they have taken over"
Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, most likely a duck!

ironclaw

mrawkward wrote: »

It is passing off if a reasonable person were to look at the site and think they were dealing with BrayCleaners!
Add to that from post #1 "is the scoundrels are telling everyone in the local business, that we have no gone out of business and they have taken over"
Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, most likely a duck!

But that's the critical point, does 'BrayCleaners.ie' make it out to be that the consumer is dealing with the OPs business? Or are they just being told about cleaners in Bray, which happen to operate under the name 'Wicklow Cleaners' and you are redirected to that site instead?

As regards the 'they are shut down etc etc', you'd want to have that on paper or in print media, otherwise its hearsay.

OP hasn't given enough information to make that call and its quite a subtle but important point.

FAILSAFE 00

Could it be possible that this other business isn't aware you bought this company so assumes it has closed it doors.

mrawkward

ironclaw wrote: »

My understanding of the OP's position is this:

OP is called Bray Cleaners

Other business is called Wicklow Cleaners

BrayCleaners.ie is currently a single page that directs a customer to WicklowCleaners.ie

Unless the customer is being mislead on BrayCleaners.ie to believe they are interacting with the OPs business, I can't see any passing off occurring.

It would be quite different if:

OP is called 'Do It All Cleaners'

Other business is called 'DIA Cleaners'

'Do It All Cleaners'.ie is a single page that makes a customer believe they are interacting with the OP, but in fact are redirected to 'DIA Cleaners'.ie

Without more information, its pure speculation.

ironclaw wrote: »

But that's the critical point, does 'BrayCleaners.ie' make it out to be that the consumer is dealing with the OPs business? Or are they just being told about cleaners in Bray, which happen to operate under the name 'Wicklow Cleaners' and you are redirected to that site instead?

As regards the 'they are shut down etc etc', you'd want to have that on paper or in print media, otherwise its hearsay.

OP hasn't given enough information to make that call and its quite a subtle but important point.

I am with you on the lack of all pertinent information. It is also important that it is understood the IEDR or Business/Company Name registration affords next to no legal name protection. Registered/unregistered marks are much more solid in that regard and supported by passing off law/remedies in infringement.

mrawkward

If it were my business I would be scouting out a proper litigation solicitor with expertise in the whole Intellectual Property area, does not need to be one of the big firms either.

VincePP

How important is the domain name to the business?

Will you be selling online or is it a showroom site?

Can you change the name slightly by adding and 's' or even deleting part of the name?

At the end of the day, good seo and prominent stating of the domain name will win out.

Nuttzz

Targeted correctly and with proper SEO your .com site will outrank any redirected .ie site within a matter of weeks

mneylon

It's not clear if the company name and domain name are "unique" or more "generic"
If the company name and the corresponding name are "unique" (think "Yahoo" versus "Dublin Cleaners") then the position is quite different to one where the name is more generic.

If the competitor is, as is being suggested, "passing off" then you should probably seek legal advice. A good solicitor would be able to advise on what the best course of action is, but a "cease and desist" letter might solve the matter.

With respect to the domain name itself, if the OP feels that it was registered in bad faith then they can use the IEDR's dispute resolution process:
http://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/cctld/ie/