Blast from the past - old exam papers

spurious

Here is the Inter. Cert. 1979 paper, which I found recently during a rummage. It was the year after I did mine.

http://www.dublin1850.com/oldexams/oldpapers.html

**the link is picture-heavy, for those on a mobile**

Some Group Cert. papers to follow tomorrow.

2011abc

So History teachers how does it compare with today ? I know Maths comparisons are embarrassing .Ordinary Level now is sub Foundation .And Honours Maths standards have plummeted also . From a casual browse over various subjects it's shocking how many have questions which JUST require reading comprehension.Effectively free marks .It was never like that in past .

spurious

I've uploaded the Group Cert,. papers now. Apologies for the quality of some of the images.

Group Cert Geography 1976
Group Cert History 1978

I recall that the Group was a more difficult exam to prepare for than the Inter., given that there was only two years to do it and the course seems much broader.

I think the Group Geography is particularly difficult, especially having to know where various features, rivers etc. were and having to enter them on blank maps.

Not a lot of use learning off 'sample' answers would have been to candidates in the old days.
**EDIT**
Just spotted the Group History was only 1 hour 15 minutes long. You'd be fairly pressed for time.

icebergiceberg

spurious wrote: »

I've uploaded the Group Cert,. papers now. Apologies for the quality of some of the images.

Group Cert Geography 1976
Group Cert History 1978

I recall that the Group was a more difficult exam to prepare for than the Inter., given that there was only two years to do it and the course seems much broader.

I think the Group Geography is particularly difficult, especially having to know where various features, rivers etc. were and having to enter them on blank maps.


Not a lot of use learning off 'sample' answers would have been to candidates in the old days.
**EDIT**
Just spotted the Group History was only 1 hour 15 minutes long. You'd be fairly pressed for time.

Thanks for sharing these.
The font and all that stuff brings back memories. The actual exam papers themselves were the oddest shape and certainly not A4. I have some Inter Cert and Leaving Cert papers from that approx time myself. Blue was Ol and an orangey colour was Honours I think. Am not quite sure why I kept them. But I would look at them occasionally and I would remember former classmates and so on.

Have you noticed that the spacing for the answers compromises some students' handwriting? And consequently their performance. Shockingly, even today's workbooks suffer in the same way. When I consider buying a new text and workbook (at up to €30 mind you) I always have a check on the workbook and specifically what kind of space is given for students to answer.

Almost without exception while the questions are very suitable there is simply no space for a student to write a proper answer. I think the second Q8 in the Geography above has some examples of that. So whoever is responsible for making those workbooks I don't think a practising teacher was involved.

TMJM96

Hope I'm not derailing anyone but what was the difference between a Group Cert and Inter Cert? Was it that one prepared you for further study in secondary and the other for those who decided to leave school early?

spurious

TMJM96 wrote: »

Hope I'm not derailing anyone but what was the difference between a Group Cert and Inter Cert? Was it that one prepared you for further study in secondary and the other for those who decided to leave school early?

The Group Cert. (or 'Day Vocational Cert.') was afaik only taken in Vocational or Technical schools. Most of the students that left following it would have headed to trades or technical/office training, while 'Inter. Cert' people might have headed to the Civil Service or stayed on for the Leaving.

In the later years of the old Inter. there was also the Vocational Preparation and Training Programme as an option instead of the standard LC, where they did Work Experience one day a week, a large amount of practical subjects and were paid the princely allowance of 30 pounds per month. "Money to stay in school!!!" screamed the rabble.

There were also things like the Career Foundation courses, the Senior Cert. etc, all precursors to the present set-up.

TMJM96

spurious wrote: »

The Group Cert. (or 'Day Vocational Cert.') was afaik only taken in Vocational or Technical schools. Most of the students that left following it would have headed to trades or technical/office training, while 'Inter. Cert' people might have headed to the Civil Service or stayed on for the Leaving.

In the later years of the old Inter. there was also the Vocational Preparation and Training Programme as an option instead of the standard LC, where they did Work Experience one day a week, a large amount of practical subjects and were paid the princely allowance of 30 pounds per month. "Money to stay in school!!!" screamed the rabble.

There were also things like the Career Foundation courses, the Senior Cert. etc, all precursors to the present set-up.

Thanks spurious! Not sure why but I find the older education systems very interesting and like seeing how they developed into the modern system!

spurious

TMJM96 wrote:

Thanks spurious! Not sure why but I find the older education systems very interesting and like seeing how they developed into the modern system!

I have a colleague who could nearly tell you what every circular ever issued was about.

It's interesting how our education system changed from being quite varied in terms of curricula offered in different types of schools, to today's situation where everywhere more or less offers the same.

sunbeam

I sat the Group Cert in 1987 in a rural vocational school. It was viewed in our school as preparation for the Inter Cert and from second year we focussed on the Inter Cert syllabus, particularly in English, Irish and Maths.

At that time there was no transition year, so we had three sets of state exams in five years. The vast majority of students stayed on for Leaving Cert and it was assumed that many of us would be going on to third level. There was no other vocational training programme available apart from a PLC secretarial course where the students had one day of work experience per week. About half the students taking that course were usually repeating one or two Leaving Cert subjects for extra points.

After a bit of recent googling, I was astonished to find that some vocational schools didn't even start to offer the Leaving until the late 80s. My school had quietly started to offer it back in the 1960s before they were technically allowed to do so. For the first few years they were never certain that the exam papers were actually going to turn up, but they did. Apparently the Department of Education didn't seem to notice until the school went looking for extra funding in the early 70s, when they were told to stop and send the senior cycle student to the nearby secondary school. That didn't happen.

The teachers in school sent their own children there, even those that came from other towns. Until I went to university in 1990, I had no idea that our school was any different from a typical secondary school other that the fact that we sat an extra state exam in second year.

gaiscioch

While every school was different, where I was in secondary the Group was done by "the lads", all of whom wore 14-hole docs and studded belts (your manliness was counted by the size of said belts and said docs). These lads would all stand along a certain corridor and we first years had to brave them on both sides (occasionally to theme music provided by bangs on lockers and howls, always to slagging).

Ireland's finest then went forth to fourth year which for them was composed of a "Pre-Employment" course, which for some reason they called "Pre-Enjoyment" (the jokes were never the best), which I think had some connection with ANCO. They then usually didn't get any employment at all before they were driven to the airport.

sunbeam

gaiscioch wrote: »

While every school was different, where I was in secondary the Group was done by "the lads", all of whom wore 14-hole docs and studded belts (your manliness was counted by the size of said belts and said docs). These lads would all stand along a certain corridor and we first years had to brave them on both sides (occasionally to theme music provided by bangs on lockers and howls, always to slagging).

Ireland's finest then went forth to fourth year which for them was composed of a "Pre-Employment" course, which for some reason they called "Pre-Enjoyment" (the jokes were never the best), which I think had some connection with ANCO. They then usually didn't get any employment at all before they were driven to the airport.

So were you separated into a Group Cert class and an Inter Cert Class in second year?

We were streamed alphabetically at first, then separated for English, Irish and maths. By Leaving Cert most honours classes consisted of about 80 percent girls and 20 percent boys and vice versa for pass. Maths was about 50-50. Woodwork and Mechanicql Drawing classes were mostly boys. Home Ec and Accounting were mostly girls.

We never had anything as exotic as pre-employment courses.

gaiscioch

sunbeam wrote: »

So were you separated into a Group Cert class and an Inter Cert Class in second year?

We were streamed alphabetically at first, then separated for English, Irish and maths.

Actually now that you mention it we had streaming and the three most academic classes did the Inter; the three least academic classes did the Group. This divide was kept from 1st year until 3rd year. If you really wanted to do the Inter you could work and they'd move you up so there was some incentive. I think, though, practically everybody was doing the Inter by the time it was replaced by the Junior Cert and nobody was doing the Group at that stage.

dory

Very interesting, thanks for posting. I have the Irish leaving very papers at home from 1975-1980. Much harder back then!
Compiling old papers would make a good project some time. Would make for interesting reading.

evolving_doors

Looking for 1989 leaving cert tech drawing? I remember our teacher said there was a question that was only solvable by trial and error.

Mardy Bum

When everyone talks about harder papers in the past they seem to forget about participation rates which is the most important factor to take into account when creating an assessment for primary and secondary education.

They tried to make kids take ridiculous hard exams (Tory government thinking everyone goes to Eton) in English primary schools this year and in most schools 50% of kids failed them.

NewbridgeIR

evolving_doors wrote: »

Looking for 1989 leaving cert tech drawing? I remember our teacher said there was a question that was only solvable by trial and error.

I did my Leaving in 1989. Didn't sit Technical Drawing but a couple of friends did. The results were shocking at higher level. In a class of 14, C - 1, D - 1, E - 12
The teacher was the guy who wrote the book for the syllabus. Purple cover, surname O'Broin. Good teacher (had him for Mechanical Drawing to Inter Cert) so could never understand why the class did so badly.

NewbridgeIR

I wrote an article about the infamous 1987 Inter Cert English paper I some years ago. The paper is scanned for the piece along with a letter from our principal.

https://wheresgrandad.wordpress.com/2012/06/06/what-were-the-skies-like-when-you-were-young-when-inter-cert-english-became-nebulous/

MacGyver007

evolving_doors wrote: »

Looking for 1989 leaving cert tech drawing? I remember our teacher said there was a question that was only solvable by trial and error.

http://archive.maths.nuim.ie/staff/dmalone/StateExamPapers/

This site has exam papers (Leaving Cert, Inter/Junior Cert, Group Cert) in maths, applied maths, the sciences, tech drawing and other subjects going right back to 1925.

brightseasons

I am looking for text books used in leaving certificate History in 1973. Would you have any idea where I can source these please.

Exiled1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121301193#Comment_121301193

Did LC history in 1972. Not sure about the text books. There were two courses available, Renaissance history or Irish/European history 1800-1921. My history teacher stopped in 1916 because he claimed he would have been biased from there onwards. The exam consisted of five big essay type questions in 2.5 hours.

Exiled1

Some very interesting comments above. I taught English and was a LCHL examiner from 1980 to 2000. At our first examiner's conference the chief inspector, a man of bishop-like portentousness, informed us there was unlikely to be any answer that deserved full marks. The implicit threat was that you were in bother if you gave full marks to any answer. A grades - 1%, B - 10%, C - 35%, D - 48% E/F - 6% approx on exam papers that were quite brutal. Indeed that had been an improvement of 1973 when, reportedly, only six candidates scored A grades in LCHL English.

The course pre - 1983 consisted mainly of texts that might perhaps, be enjoyed by an academic reader. It was horrible to teach and we sympathised with students who had to plough through Senior Prose, Coriolanus and a Shaw play. Matters improved somewhat with the dropping of Senior Prose, the grammar question and the addition of a few books more interesting to younger readers (and a new chief examiner).

By 2000 all had changed. 'Soundings' was gone with its fifty five poems, some of which were very demanding. Poetry became five poets (some of dubious quality but politically correct) with about six handy poems by each. This was the beginning of our current dog's dinner. A few texts representing each of the LGBT+ agendas and utterly predictable exam questions marked so generously that there is now little difference between an outstanding candidate and a thoroughly mediocre one. Inter Cert higher level 1987 = Leaving Cert higher level 2013.

The final nail in the coffin of grade inflation arrived this year in the words of our bewildered Minister who took credit for adding 8% to Leaving Cert marks that had already been inflated.

Can't speak for other subjects but, anecdotally, the pattern has been very similar.

mariaalice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121301193#Comment_121301193

Ireland since the famine FS Lyones, Maybe

brightseasons

Very interesting read thank you. I sat the Leaving Cert in 1973,we had a brilliant history teacher unfortunately she dictated miles of words and yes it was academic level but I really wish I could find the text book we also used it was definately the European/Irish module.

Nigel Fairservice

While not Junior/Leaving cert exam papers I saw my Dad's civil service exam papers from 1966 recently. They looked difficult enough. Much more difficult than when I joined the civil service nearly 40 years after him.

bobbyss

I had been doing a bit of spring cleaning recently and I came across lots of old school stuff which I recycled. Time to move on. I did Latin for a year or two and I still have Latin for Today. The Exploring English series -Green and Orange and ? - I also had until recently enough.

There was also another book, I think different from the Exploring English series which was a prose book as I recall. It had Burke's Reflections on the French Revolution, something about roasting a pig as well. Stuff by Hazlitt. Very turgid. I also remember having a 'free class' when we marched to the TV room to watch Gus Martin on Telefis Scoile talking about Yeats or somebody like that. I remember being enraptured when we did Great Expectations. We all read a bit every week wondering what would happen. Nobody ever read in advance of the class.

Leaving Cert European History was a dry affair. The text was by Stokes & Stokes. Reams of writing some stuff from the blackboard. In Irish history we had a slight book by Michael Tierney. I may still have it somewhere. There was a section of about seven lines about Developments in Irish railways in the 19th century. The exam asked for an essay on the same topic! I can't recall ever getting extra notes on any aspect of the course.

jrmb

It would be fascinating to see how MFL papers have evolved but I haven't been able to find anything from before 1995. Does anyone know where I could find some?

NewbridgeIR

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121319496#Comment_121319496

The third Exploring English was blue & contained prose. Charles Lamb’s A Dissertation On Roast Pig & Hilaire Belloc’s The French Kings were two that stood out.

The Leaving Cert prescribed prose book was also blue. That one had the Edmund Burke essay. You could also go for the unprescribed prose in the exam but that was risky. My English teacher said that the general poetry question was “the refuge of the D student”.

I agree that the Leaving Cert history texts were dull. Modern Ireland by Mark Tierney - red cover with photos of Lemass, Parnell etc. The European book was blue & in the same style. We were also encouraged to broaden our horizons so I bought FSL Lyons’ Ireland Since The Famine & David Thomson’s Europe Since Napoleon. I did my special topic on the Vietnam War - having got my info from Orbis’ Nam magazine partwork (1987).

Our class of 28 in Leaving Cert history was split 50/50 between higher & ordinary level. The teacher would spend 5 minutes with us and then announce “Now I must go over and talk to my pass friends”. Every exam was marked extremely harshly & nobody got more than 50%. Yet 8/14 got A grades in the higher Leaving Cert which was a big surprise.

bobbyss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121320580#Comment_121320580

Yes. That Prose book I was thinking about was for the Leaving Cert. I also bought that Thomson book but I think it remained unopened.

But there would have been no special topic in the 70s or 80s?

NewbridgeIR

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121322294#Comment_121322294

There was in 1989. Albeit I ended up not answering it in the exam - there was a question on Ulster Unionism which I did instead.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121319713#Comment_121319713

Not what you are looking for, but someone in Maynooth has an archive of STEM papers going back to 1925. It's interesting to see how maths and science papers evolved and that there were different papers in some subjects for girls and boys. Technical Drawing is a good example.

jennyrp

Great insights- I did my Inter in 1986, did the school’s first Transition year and then to Leaving in 1989. I’ve become slightly obsessed with the standard of our leaving cert texts versus what children are using now and so far have sourced some books online: current search is for the title of LCH Ireland history (I have the Mark Tierney European since 1870) if anyone can remind me?

I'm not surprised to hear the direction given at the time -it’s all relative. An A in the 80s was an absolute achievement whereas not so sure now and true talent in a subject, especially English, is lost with perhaps more conventionally rated A standards.