deus vult the war against Catholicism

alma73

ISIS has come out saying they are going to kill more priests. Can there be any dialogue ISIS?

Cabaal

I don't see how, who exactly do you speak to?

In addition, its hard to negotiate with a group who believe they are right by gods will and the other side is wrong. This of course can just as easily apply to other religions too of course.

alma73

Cabaal wrote: »

I don't see how, who exactly do you speak to?

In addition, its hard to negotiate with a group who believe they are right by gods will and the other side is wrong. This of course can just as easily apply to other religions too of course.

So what action does Europe take? Is islam incompatible with our values?

Sad that some muslims I know left Muslim countries to get away of the religious control there.. and yet they find themselves in the crossfire with fanatics in the west.

Giacomo McGubbin

Cabaal wrote: »

I don't see how, who exactly do you speak to?

In addition, its hard to negotiate with a group who believe they are right by gods will and the other side is wrong. This of course can just as easily apply to other religions too of course.

And people who don't have any religion, but just think they are right even when they are wrong.

lazybones32

Dialogue? Ha..."any last words?" and put the bullet in their head before they start speaking. I'd personally consider burying them with pig flesh but that might be a step too far.

It's other Muslims who are bearing the brunt of their crusade. Christians are suffering too but nowhere near as much and I think Daesh are only claiming credit for what happened in France because of the reaction (didn't they initially claim credit for the Orlando shooting too...until it emerged it was a homosexual man possibly taking revenge of sorts).

There can be no dialogue with people like this. Understanding their reasons, their pain, their motivation isn't likely to help them see sense or that killing God's creation because they have different beliefs is wrong. But I think this is only the beginning...

Giacomo McGubbin

The simple fact is, as history shows, people who want to maim and murder human beings for their own power kicks will find a convenient "cause" to hide behind and gather those of similar mind. If it wasn't Islam, these people would just as easily find another "cause". It can be nationalism, skin colour, communism, religion, money, ethnicity, etc. to name just a few. Same play over and over, just different actors.

Cabaal

alma73 wrote: »

So what action does Europe take? Is islam incompatible with our values?

Europe or the catholic church?
After all this thread is about a "war" on Catholicism (Europe does not equal all catholics).

For a starters the pope might want to understand that religion must certainly can be and is a cause for terror and war, history has shown us that.

However he doesn't seem to believe this - http://www.thejournal.ie/pope-world-at-war-2899089-Jul2016/

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

The simple fact is, as history shows, people who want to maim and murder human beings for their own power kicks will find a convenient "cause"

Very true,
However religion has been used for thousands of years as that cause, if it isn't a religious war its burning witches, denying advances in science or profiting off of single mothers and being against a government providing single mothers with benefits or denying women rights. All in the name of religion and what "god" wants.

At one time it was the christian faiths doing such awful things, now its simply the turn of another faith. Round and round we go,

smacl

alma73 wrote: »

So what action does Europe take? Is islam incompatible with our values?

Conflating Islam with ISIS is akin to conflating Christianity with the Ku Klux Klan, not to mention very much part of the ISIS agenda. And I say that as an atheist with no great respect for any major religion. Thankfully we're moving to a more secular society in Europe where people can happily co-exist regardless of their religious affiliations (or lack thereof).

lazygal

Hasn't ISIS killed more Muslims than those of any other or no faith?

Delirium

Where did ISIS state they will only be killing Roman Catholic priests?

Cabaal

lazygal wrote: »

Hasn't ISIS killed more Muslims than those of any other or no faith?

Yes, but that doesn't create catchy news headlines about religious wars. The media don't really concentrate on Muslims killing Muslims so much

smacl

Cabaal wrote: »

Yes, but that doesn't create catchy news headlines about religious wars. The media don't really concentrate on Muslims killing Muslims so much

Or anyone killing anyone else for that matter, just so long as they don't do it our neighbourhood. How many shot or drowned Syrians, or Boko Haram slaves does it take to get the equivalent media coverage of one dead European ISIS victim?

Cabaal

I suppose so many people are falling into a trap here,
This isn't a "war" against catholics, or a war against the french or Europeans or even our way of life, this is a war against people that just hold different views to the other side. Race, colour or religion doesn't come into it, they'll just as easily kill a muslim as they do an atheist or christian.

All it takes is for you to hold a different view to them, sadly people feel the need to label it as a war against a certain group, that is clearly not the case. Its a war against just other human beings.

beach_walker

Cabaal wrote: »

Yes, but that doesn't create catchy news headlines about religious wars. The media don't really concentrate on Muslims killing Muslims so much

Err they would if it were happening in the west. Not much of any of the mass slaughter in the ME makes as much headlines as when it happens somewhere close by.

(didn't they initially claim credit for the Orlando shooting too...until it emerged it was a homosexual man possibly taking revenge of sorts).

Well there's no evidence for that.


As for topic, there's increasing persecution of Christians across Africa and the ME. It's sad to see history being erased in particular by ISIS. I don't know what the answer is, but it's certainly not hate on our part.


I attended a Mass and follow-on-even about a month ago for the intentions of all the trouble in the ME. There was a huge number of recently arrived Syrian/Iraqi Catholic refugees and they partook in a procession before the service. Was extremely humbling realising how much these people had seen. Heartbreaking. At the same time, the outpouring of the community to welcome our brothers and sisters in Christ was something to behold.

The Archbishop of Rouen, Dominique Lebrun, who was attending a Catholic gathering in Poland, said: "I cry out to God with all men of goodwill. I would invite non-believers to join in the cry.

"The Catholic Church cannot take weapons other than those of prayer and brotherhood among men."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36892785

recedite

smacl wrote: »

Conflating Islam with ISIS is akin to conflating Christianity with the Ku Klux Klan..

Except that IS is guided by Islam, whereas the KKK is guided by ideas of white supremacy.
If the KKK re-branded as "Christian State" and embraced black Christians but started killing non-Christians, you might have a point.

lazybones32

beach_walker wrote: »

Well there's no evidence for that.

Yes to both parts. Early reports noted that ISIL claimed responsibility. Later reports stated that it may have been a revenge attack of some description.

beach_walker wrote: »

As for topic, there's increasing persecution of Christians across Africa and the ME. It's sad to see history being erased in particular by ISIS. I don't know what the answer is, but it's certainly not hate on our part.

There are a few points to consider:
1) God is in charge and He's allowing/tolerating this. He's as much in control in times of peace as in times of war.
2) History is also being made, so I wouldn't be too concerned about the past.
3) There is no hatred towards those who carry out those attacks on my behalf. But in the event of them or me they won't be shown mercy. Learn the difference between execution and murder.

Did you know the Israeli's thought about having packages of pig fat on buses to dissuade Muslim suicide-bombers from blowing themselves (and the passengers) up? If the potential to be killed while covered in pig flesh/blood can deter someone from killing, I'm all for its use.


Also, the consecrated members of the Church aren't allowed take up arms. The rest of us are.

beach_walker

lazybones32 wrote: »

Yes to both parts. Early reports noted that ISIL claimed responsibility. Later reports stated that it may have been a revenge attack of some description.

"...the FBI has found no evidence so far to support claims by those who say Mateen had gay lovers or communicated on gay dating apps"

As for the rest, I have no idea what it has to do with my post.

beach_walker

Sorz thought I'd already added to above ^^, you're not a believer so 1). meh. 3)I don't recall any hatred coming from you, but rather from right wing nuts and A&A extremists, so again not on you.

And I'm sleepy, mis-read your bit on the past 2). History and groupings in the regions are being wiped out. This is a tragedy for all humanity.


If you want to take up arms, I suggest the Military forum for advice.

beach_walker

Added: I'm the first to slate and mock the Guardian, but a good piece today "Father Jacques Hamel died as a priest, doing what priests do" Killed for his faith, Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them.
May they rest in peace.

Amen.

ceegee

recedite wrote: »

Except that IS is guided by Islam, whereas the KKK is guided by ideas of white supremacy.
If the KKK re-branded as "Christian State" and embraced black Christians but started killing non-Christians, you might have a point.

The kkk were very much guided by religion, especially the earlier iterations of it up until the 1940s. They were anti-Catholic and anti-Semetic, and were strongly motivated by puritanical Protestant teachings: they firmly supported prohibition for example.

Their focus on black people only really became a primary focus once the civil rights movement started.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

beach_walker

Disgusting.

smacl

recedite wrote: »

Except that IS is guided by Islam, whereas the KKK is guided by ideas of white supremacy.
If the KKK re-branded as "Christian State" and embraced black Christians but started killing non-Christians, you might have a point.

The KKK's goal was to return America to a country for white anglo-saxon protestants. So while they were all Christians, they specifically targeted other different Christians such as Catholics, much as ISIS attack other Muslims. The following blog covers it quite well.

While I'm no fan of Islam, I think that suggesting that ISIS are representative of broader Islamic sentiment is both wrong and damaging. At one level terrorism of all kinds works by trying to divide society along emerging fault lines and break it apart on that basis. My opinion is that this is something we need to be aware of and take a united front against.

Delirium

MOD NOTE

I've removed the linked video as it breaches the charter due to swearing contained with said video.

******

non-mod mode.

I'd echo beach_walkers comment of disgusting regarding the video.

for those that didn't see video:

In video, Sky News 'reporter' appears at church which has sign outside it reading 'all welcome'. Sky News person comments on lack of increased security at church.

Subsequently enters church, with cameraman waiting outside, only to reappear and state 'if I was a terrorist, I could have killed them all'.

One would be forgiven for thinking it was a satirical news show.

Also, if anyone finds the clip sans-swearing, feel free to post here

Giacomo McGubbin

Delirium wrote: »

MOD NOTE

I've removed the linked video as it breaches the charter due to swearing contained with said video.

******

non-mod mode.

I'd echo beach_walkers comment of disgusting regarding the video.

for those that didn't see video:

In video, Sky News 'reporter' appears at church which has sign outside it reading 'all welcome'. Sky News person comments on lack of increased security at church.

Subsequently enters church, with cameraman waiting outside, only to reappear and state 'if I was a terrorist, I could have killed them all'.

One would be forgiven for thinking it was a satirical news show.

Also, if anyone finds the clip sans-swearing, feel free to post here

Imagine if he walked into a creche or a school, or a theatre, or a pub, and started to boast that 'I could have killed THEM all' ? Bizzare.
Who's "them" ?

looksee

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6n8IhAhjKQ

This is the link with no swearing. I cannot see what the fuss is about. He is simply saying that the place is completely open with no security and if he had been a terrorist he could have walked in and killed everyone. Which is true. But what is the solution? Stop and search at every church door?

brian_t

Sky News had a special report on Iran this week.

They filmed inside a mosque where a "kalashnikov clutching cleric led prayers".

Jump to 1.30 min