Dual purpose Breeding bull

sthilmick

Lads just looking for decent options on the best replacement bull to invest in. We currently have 2 bulls both simmentals running with the cows 35 dairy Friesian and 15 X simmental sucklers. The young bull is grand but the older one is nearly finished a terrible pity as he provided some top quality calves in the past few years Infact we topped the store cattle in the local mart a few times. We've ran a few different breeds of bull in the last 30 years but keep coming back to the simmental seems to tick the boxes as far as we're concerned the calves are hardy low mortality rate and reasonably easy calving and are good to utilise grass and don't require a lot of meal to produce what the finishing men want any thoughts we've had CH and AA and Hereford what's the Parthenise like or any other suggestions

Genghis Cant

sthilmick wrote: »

Lads just looking for decent options on the best replacement bull to invest in. We currently have 2 bulls both simmentals running with the cows 35 dairy Friesian and 15 X simmental sucklers. The young bull is grand but the older one is nearly finished a terrible pity as he provided some top quality calves in the past few years Infact we topped the store cattle in the local mart a few times. We've ran a few different breeds of bull in the last 30 years but keep coming back to the simmental seems to tick the boxes as far as we're concerned the calves are hardy low mortality rate and reasonably easy calving and are good to utilise grass and don't require a lot of meal to produce what the finishing men want any thoughts we've had CH and AA and Hereford what's the Parthenise like or any other suggestions

You sound like a man that is happy with the Simm. Buy the best Simm bull you can and stay with what's working for you.

sthilmick

Genghis Cant wrote: »

You sound like a man that is happy with the Simm. Buy the best Simm bull you can and stay with what's working for you.

Yeah we weren't unhappy with the AA either the CH caused us lots of problems just looking around no harm in mixing it up if you didn't we'd be still at shorthorns. I wouldn't mind that I like them but the market dictates

GiantPencil

Play to your market, you seem happy with what you have right now so if I was in your shoes I'd be looking to invest good money in a replacement Simm with good breeding. Head to a society show & sale and you should find what you want there with plenty variety available

sthilmick

GiantPencil wrote: »

Play to your market, you seem happy with what you have right now so if I was in your shoes I'd be looking to invest good money in a replacement Simm with good breeding. Head to a society show & sale and you should find what you want there with plenty variety available

Yeah well the young bull is fine came from good stock with a long reputation for quality animals as for the show cattle often are pumped up for the look and to win prizes I'd say we'll stick to breaders who produce for breading just seeing what others are using and what results they're getting with crossing different breads

GiantPencil

sthilmick wrote: »

GiantPencil wrote: »

Play to your market, you seem happy with what you have right now so if I was in your shoes I'd be looking to invest good money in a replacement Simm with good breeding. Head to a society show & sale and you should find what you want there with plenty variety available

Yeah well the young bull is fine came from good stock with a long reputation for quality animals as for the show cattle often are pumped up for the look and to win prizes I'd say we'll stick to breaders who produce for breading just seeing what others are using and what results they're getting with crossing different breads

Visit those show breeders on farm and you might see the stock in a more natural appearance so. Nothing wrong with shopping around!

Waffletraktor

The simmental dairy version Fleckveigh? the bulls are meant to be extremely dangerous though normally only ai

sthilmick

Waffletraktor wrote: »

The simmental dairy version Fleckveigh? the bulls are meant to be extremely dangerous though normally only ai

Not in our experience I guess they can be a bit bold if they get too fat in the shed

Waffletraktor

sthilmick wrote: »

Not in our experience I guess they can be a bit bold if they get too fat in the shed

Its not the simmental its their very close relation the Flekveigh from bavaria germany/austria i mean, like a simxhol type animal but the bulls are meant to be lethal, to the rate they wont sell you one only through ai unless a1 facilities. Put out alot of milk with decent beef calves. apparently.
I may be the one muddled up here!

Future Farmer

I have some experience with Dairy Simmental/Fleckvieh:

Milked in two farmers that ran them:
One place you needed to get cows with Loader or Tractor (the farmer had young children - bull should never have been kept). Bull was eventually culled.

Other place bull was a nightmare to handle, 3 or 4 man operation to move him, then turned out he was infertile. That farmer also had a DS before that and the calving difficulty was a nightmare (also culled because he was difficult to handle), couldn't believe he'd bought another one, he's AIing now and has two AA & a Beef Simmental for cleaning up.

It pisses me off that:
a) farmer's their lives and their families lives at risk with these cranky bull around
b) on Donedeal NO ONE should be allowed advertise a bull as quiet - they kill people too

patsy_mccabe

Advertising a bull as quiet means just that. It means that the bull has being quiet to date. Most experienced farmers know this. I don't see a problem with it.
My worst experiences have been with mad cows not mad bulls.

Panch18

sthilmick wrote: »

Lads just looking for decent options on the best replacement bull to invest in. We currently have 2 bulls both simmentals running with the cows 35 dairy Friesian and 15 X simmental sucklers. The young bull is grand but the older one is nearly finished a terrible pity as he provided some top quality calves in the past few years Infact we topped the store cattle in the local mart a few times. We've ran a few different breeds of bull in the last 30 years but keep coming back to the simmental seems to tick the boxes as far as we're concerned the calves are hardy low mortality rate and reasonably easy calving and are good to utilise grass and don't require a lot of meal to produce what the finishing men want any thoughts we've had CH and AA and Hereford what's the Parthenise like or any other suggestions

And what do you do with the beef calves? Mart, Factory, a bit of both, bulls or steers?

croot

"Future wrote:

It pisses me off that:
a) farmer's their lives and their families lives at risk with these cranky bull around
b) on Donedeal NO ONE should be allowed advertise a bull as quiet - they kill people too

Ah come on. Everyone, even non farming people know bulls are dangerous. I'd say complacency or over familiarity are the cause of livestock accidents in 99% of cases.

Markcheese

A friend had a beef simmental a few years back.. great bull till he got to about 5 yo. He got cranky .. started facing down people.. wouldnt leave the cows go to the gate.. up the ramp...
Great calves though..

KatyMac

croot wrote: »

Ah come on. Everyone, even non farming people know bulls are dangerous. I'd say complacency or over familiarity are the cause of livestock accidents in 99% of cases.[/QUOTE

Once heard a fella say, "mad bulls don't kill anyone because people are always careful and watch themselves around them. It's the quiet ones that get ya."

whelan2

KatyMac wrote: »

Once heard a fella say, "mad bulls don't kill anyone because people are always careful and watch themselves around them. It's the quiet ones that get ya."

never trust any bull, full stop.

J.O. Farmer

whelan2 wrote: »

never trust any bull, full stop.

I think that was the point. People automatically don't trust mad bulls but are complacent with quiet bulls.

sthilmick

Panch18 wrote:

And what do you do with the beef calves? Mart, Factory, a bit of both, bulls or steers?

Mart at 18 months

sthilmick

Panch18 wrote:

And what do you do with the beef calves? Mart, Factory, a bit of both, bulls or steers?

Sell them as store cattle at 18 months approx

sthilmick

Markcheese wrote:

A friend had a beef simmental a few years back.. great bull till he got to about 5 yo. He got cranky .. started facing down people.. wouldnt leave the cows go to the gate.. up the ramp... Great calves though..

Unfortunately it's the only way.
We had one once threw me across the yard playing then he smelt the fear and only for a round feeder in the yard I was f####d propper ended up clearing a gate Linford christy wouldn't get over old fella told me ya must have rose him few weeks later he got a taste of him and then off to the factory when they were loading him he tore the ring out of his own nose. Bull are dangerous I'm very weary of them since

pedigree 6

Should never show fear to any animal.
I know not easy but as you say they pick up on it very quickly.
Always have bulls here. You don't treat them like a pet but you don't act afraid either and don't abuse them.
They are usually more afraid of you and will defend themselves if they have to and don't get between them and cows.
Never had any trouble with bulls (touch wood). If they get in a routine with milking cows they know what to expect and usually calm enough.
But always look after yourself and don't act the hero or eejet with a bull.

mistybluehills

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Should never show fear to any animal.
I know not easy but as you say they pick up on it very quickly.
Always have bulls here. You don't treat them like a pet but you don't act afraid either and don't abuse them.
They are usually more afraid of you and will defend themselves if they have to and don't get between them and cows.
Never had any trouble with bulls (touch wood). If they get in a routine with milking cows they know what to expect and usually calm enough.
But always look after yourself and don't act the hero or eejet with a bull.

Wise advice
Good point earlier about the cows too can be deadly.
All cattle can go a bit crazy also if they are sick. Had a strong weanling went for me one time (he had seriously high temperature). Apparantlt they can get hallucinations and go for people.
Same thing if you ever saw a suckler cow with tetany.
Anyways buy the best you can, mind him (esp the feet) and be careful!!!!

sthilmick

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Should never show fear to any animal.
I know not easy but as you say they pick up on it very quickly.
Always have bulls here. You don't treat them like a pet but you don't act afraid either and don't abuse them.
They are usually more afraid of you and will defend themselves if they have to and don't get between them and cows.
Never had any trouble with bulls (touch wood). If they get in a routine with milking cows they know what to expect and usually calm enough.
But always look after yourself and don't act the hero or eejet with a bull.

Well I was 13/14 and I was afraid

sthilmick

mistybluehills wrote: »

Wise advice
Good point earlier about the cows too can be deadly.
All cattle can go a bit crazy also if they are sick. Had a strong weanling went for me one time (he had seriously high temperature). Apparantlt they can get hallucinations and go for people.
Same thing if you ever saw a suckler cow with tetany.
Anyways buy the best you can, mind him (esp the feet) and be careful!!!!

A neighbour of ours was nearly killed by a cow who had just calved and I saw another cow chase he tail like a dog while calving she flung the calf clean out of herself another time we were cranging weaning bulls and one calf charged at the chap doing the cranging when we let him outta the crush in the heel of the hunt cattle are dangerous gotta be aware when dealing with them.

mistybluehills

sthilmick wrote: »

A neighbour of ours was nearly killed by a cow who had just calved and I saw another cow chase he tail like a dog while calving she flung the calf clean out of herself another time we were cranging weaning bulls and one calf charged at the chap doing the cranging when we let him outta the crush in the heel of the hunt cattle are dangerous gotta be aware when dealing with them.

Wise words
It's the oul fellas farming I think are most at risk
Lads in their 70s, know their cattle but just can't get out of the way if something happens.

A crazed bovine coming at you full tilt is one of the scariest things that can happen....

sthilmick

Ok back to my question stick with simmental or something different

ZETOR_IS_BETTER

sthilmick wrote: »

Ok back to my question stick with simmental or something different

Keep the simmental on the dairy. Buy a Limousin for hybrid vigour on the Simx cows. Sit back and admire the quality

mistybluehills

sthilmick wrote: »

Ok back to my question stick with simmental or something different

I'dstick with the bull that suits your system
For me calving ease would be paramount and good feet but you might have different objectives.
I'm a bit old fashioned and a hereford fan but I won't attempt to influence you....

sthilmick

ZETOR_IS_BETTER wrote: »

Keep the simmental on the dairy. Buy a Limousin for hybrid vigour on the Simx cows. Sit back and admire the quality

Limo big money for 15 calves a year

sthilmick

mistybluehills wrote: »

I'dstick with the bull that suits your system
For me calving ease would be paramount and good feet but you might have different objectives.
I'm a bit old fashioned and a hereford fan but I won't attempt to influence you....

Been along time since we had Hereford be ok for easy calving but I think you'd nearly wanna be a full suckler man for them

ZETOR_IS_BETTER

sthilmick wrote: »

Limo big money for 15 calves a year

What's the price difference between a sim bull and lim bull?

sthilmick

ZETOR_IS_BETTER wrote: »

What's the price difference between a sim bull and lim bull?

Sucklers are the retirement home for the older bull for us

sthilmick

No problem with lomos just decent one are colossal money I don't see anything 5 star for less than 3K

mistybluehills

sthilmick wrote: »

Been along time since we had Hereford be ok for easy calving but I think you'd nearly wanna be a full suckler man for them

Ah ya, I just like the breed is all. Like I said- suit your system first and everyone's is different.

There's a lot of fads in breeding (just check out what a lot of the dairy men are at.... Jersey crosses god help us with runty bull calves and worthless cull cows.... when a british friesian would be the ideal beast for their system)
I like to stick with tradition... anyways rant over!!
Might be worth talking to a Tegasc advisor.... and main point, mind whatever bull you get, feet wise etc
I'm always amazd at chaps who buy a top of the range bull and neglect preventative foot care.
If he's physically b***xed, breeding doesn't matter a jot, cos he won't bull anything.... and he won't last

sthilmick

mistybluehills wrote: »

Ah ya, I just like the breed is all. Like I said- suit your system first and everyone's is different.

There's a lot of fads in breeding (just check out what a lot of the dairy men are at.... Jersey crosses god help us with runty bull calves and worthless cull cows.... when a british friesian would be the ideal beast for their system)
I like to stick with tradition... anyways rant over!!
Might be worth talking to a Tegasc advisor.... and main point, mind whatever bull you get, feet wise etc
I'm always amazd at chaps who buy a top of the range bull and neglect preventative foot care.
If he's physically b***xed, breeding doesn't matter a jot, cos he won't bull anything.... and he won't last

Yeah the big dairy men are trying to produce more solids with the replacement heifers the really don't care about the bulls they are just waste to them. As for foot care I'm 100% with you there our old boy is getting towards the end was thinking to mix it up a bit but it seems we're on the right track probably stick with the sim