Teams in Club

jtown

So – thinking of going to manage a club team next year and want to get going on what type of stats I will keep..

Anyone here has history of this…?

I’m thinking of a spreadsheet of stats cause usually they don’t lie and picking the team can be a lot easier if you have excel sheet to show are players.
No buddy buddy system then and all players know exactly what they have to do to make the team

Some ideas.
1pt play in club comp
1pt over 35 pts
2pts over 38 pts etc etc
Practice match – 3pts win/ 1pt halve

Every time the players play they know it will count towards the making of the team - Encourage them never to give up on those Sunday morning - Encourage them to practice more and more


Does anyone have anything like this in place in their club?

Cheers

slingerz

jtown wrote: »

So – thinking of going to manage a club team next year and want to get going on what type of stats I will keep..

Anyone here has history of this…?

I’m thinking of a spreadsheet of stats cause usually they don’t lie and picking the team can be a lot easier if you have excel sheet to show are players.
No buddy buddy system then and all players know exactly what they have to do to make the team

Some ideas.
1pt play in club comp
1pt over 35 pts
2pts over 38 pts etc etc
Practice match – 3pts win/ 1pt halve

Every time the players play they know it will count towards the making of the team - Encourage them never to give up on those Sunday morning - Encourage them to practice more and more


Does anyone have anything like this in place in their club?

Cheers

I think that is quite a good idea and should be equitable across all interested parties.

Wouldnt work in our club as we often only get the bare numbers for teams anyway

jtown

slingerz wrote: »

I think that is quite a good idea and should be equitable across all interested parties.

Wouldnt work in our club as we often only get the bare numbers for teams anyway

Maybe getting bare numbers is cause people know the same fellows are always on.
Give the Excel sheet to all managers - for all club teams is what I'm thinking

Dbu

jtown wrote: »

So – thinking of going to manage a club team next year and want to get going on what type of stats I will keep..

Anyone here has history of this…?

I’m thinking of a spreadsheet of stats cause usually they don’t lie and picking the team can be a lot easier if you have excel sheet to show are players.
No buddy buddy system then and all players know exactly what they have to do to make the team

Some ideas.
1pt play in club comp
1pt over 35 pts
2pts over 38 pts etc etc
Practice match – 3pts win/ 1pt halve

Every time the players play they know it will count towards the making of the team - Encourage them never to give up on those Sunday morning - Encourage them to practice more and more


Does anyone have anything like this in place in their club?

Cheers

Will this be a foursomes team...like purcell or bruen?

jtown

Dbu wrote: »

Will this be a foursomes team...like purcell or bruen?

Yip and all other teams - Junior Cup etc

gman127

I like the sound of it.

At least you'd know whether you were looking like making a team or not.

And it could probably make some practice matches a better indicator of who would perform best in an interclub scenario if you felt you were playing under a bit of pressure to make the team.

jtown

gman127 wrote: »

I like the sound of it.

At least you'd know whether you were looking like making a team or not.

And it could probably make some practice matches a better indicator of who would perform best in an interclub scenario if you felt you were playing under a bit of pressure to make the team.

Yes that's exactly it - We have learned a valuable lessons after this year!
Reward the players who are playing best in the club who are on the panel.
If you play in club competitions and perform well all year you should be rewarded with representing the club

Dbu

Id have to disagree, well from my own experience anyway.(purcell)
Junior cup is obviously different as its singles
Problem I saw first hand was that there were loads of guys able to score well in weekly club singles.
Put him into a foursomes match and ask the same guy to hole a downhill 3 footer for a win and you see a completely different dude.
We got our club to organise as much foursomes competitions as they could and based the team on those results.

Playing matchplay is far more beneficial that have having an spreadsheet imo. Spreadsheets dont tell you when a guy freezes under pressure or his weak shot under pressure is a big push right for example.

Best of luck though..it will drive you insane:D

jtown

Dbu wrote: »

Id have to disagree, well from my own experience anyway.(purcell)
Junior cup is obviously different as its singles
Problem I saw first hand was that there were loads of guys able to score well in weekly club singles.
Put him into a foursomes match and ask the same guy to hole a downhill 3 footer for a win and you see a completely different dude.
We got our club to organise as much foursomes competitions as they could and based the team on those results.

Playing matchplay is far more beneficial that have having an spreadsheet imo. Spreadsheets dont tell you when a guy freezes under pressure or his weak shot under pressure is a big push right for example.

Best of luck though..it will drive you insane:D

This is only a small bit of the stats I would keep.. I would be bringing in lots more (GIR, Fairways, putts, up and downs etc) - The manager would keep these and let all players see the stats - If player not performing it would ask them to think should they hit the practice range before the next match!

The Rape of Lucretia

We have something similar :

3 points if a friend of that team Captain
1 point for each year that you have played on that team previously
1 point if a member for longer than 5 years, 2 points if longer than 10, 3 points if longger than 20 years
5 points if you are a known bandit and unashamed about it
1 point for each other team that you are on that same year, with a bonus 10 points if you are on 5 including this one
4 points if on the mens committee
4 points if on the council, and bonus 4 points if on both
5 points if you had have played at a higher level interclub in the past, but have let your handicap go out and only play at the old level when playing for the club
3 points if you dont know the rules of golf
10 points if a member of one of the patrician families of the club
3 points if you prefer home games and wont travel to any opposition club that is more than an hours drive away

Its open. Players with highest points wins. Doesnt bring us much success, but at least everybody knows how it works, so seems fair enough.

Kingswood Rover

Some clubs literally would barely have enough interested players in certain handicap ranges, mine included But in saying that that is an excellent way of keeping tabs on potential panelists. Masterscore board is a brilliant tool to gauge par to bogey ratio's, how many times a person records no score on a hole etc. In saying that though some players have that proven interclub bottle and which rightly so IMO can be hard to ignore even when the person has not playing particularly well in club competitions prior to selection.

Kingswood Rover

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

We have something similar :

3 points if a friend of that team Captain
1 point for each year that you have played on that team previously
1 point if a member for longer than 5 years, 2 points if longer than 10, 3 points if longger than 20 years
5 points if you are a known bandit and unashamed about it
1 point for each other team that you are on that same year, with a bonus 10 points if you are on 5 including this one
4 points if on the mens committee
4 points if on the council, and bonus 4 points if on both
5 points if you had have played at a higher level interclub in the past, but have let your handicap go out and only play at the old level when playing for the club
3 points if you dont know the rules of golf
10 points if a member of one of the patrician families of the club
3 points if you prefer home games and wont travel to any opposition club that is more than an hours drive away

Its open. Players with highest points wins. Doesnt bring us much success, but at least everybody knows how it works, so seems fair enough.

leave

Uncle Ben

jtown wrote: »

This is only a small bit of the stats I would keep.. I would be bringing in lots more (GIR, Fairways, putts, up and downs etc) - The manager would keep these and let all players see the stats - If player not performing it would ask them to think should they hit the practice range before the next match!

A lot of work involved when looking after a team of 12. As previous posters have said in a lot of cases its already a nightmare in getting lads to play. I've tried sticking posters up looking for volunteers. I've approached players and asked them to come on board. Then when the game is on a Tue/Wed/or Thursday it becomes a whole new ballgame with lads committed to work etc and pretty soon your stock of players are diminished.

I wish you well but after looking after various club teams for the last five years I'll be glad to put the feet up next summer.

Hoof Hearted2

When stats tell you someones personality and how they interact with different partners, you'll have a fool proof system

martinkop

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Some clubs literally would barely have enough interested players in certain handicap ranges, mine included But in saying that that is an excellent way of keeping tabs on potential panelists. Masterscore board is a brilliant tool to gauge par to bogey ratio's, how many times a person records no score on a hole etc. In saying that though some players have that proven interclub bottle and which rightly so IMO can be hard to ignore even when the person has not playing particularly well in club competitions prior to selection.

The Poulter "Postman" effect

Domo1982

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

When stats tell you someones personality and how they interact with different partners, you'll have a fool proof system

Elite Singles?

Rikand

Uncle Ben wrote: »

A lot of work involved when looking after a team of 12. As previous posters have said in a lot of cases its already a nightmare in getting lads to play. I've tried sticking posters up looking for volunteers. I've approached players and asked them to come on board. Then when the game is on a Tue/Wed/or Thursday it becomes a whole new ballgame with lads committed to work etc and pretty soon your stock of players are diminished.

I wish you well but after looking after various club teams for the last five years I'll be glad to put the feet up next summer.

I keep thinking this year is my last year but then I look at how other teams are ran and I know nobody will run it better than I do so I'll stay on till I'm not asked anymore

Kingswood Rover

Rikand wrote: »

I keep thinking this year is my last year but then I look at how other teams are ran and I know nobody will run it better than I do so I'll stay on till I'm not asked anymore

Yep, some team managers are pants with no preparation other than what do you want for the after match meal. If you have a good panel i think the hardest thing is trying to workout how to minimize the home advantage if the away team. Preparation wise because we have a small membership we have a lot of crossover between teams with a lot of the guys all playing in the Barton, Provincial Towns and Jimmy Bruen. What are peoples thoughts on approaching an away match with 5, 7 or 9 games??

Kingswood Rover

martinkop wrote: »

The Poulter "Postman" effect

Had to google that, Poulter was asked what drove him on in Matchplay, he thought for a few seconds and said "absolute pure hatred to loose" that's the attitude you need on your teams in any code. I remember playing an interclub game last year and our opponents said hello on the 1st and shook hands with us on the 16th saying totally nothing to either of us for the duration of the match other normal match requests marking, who's turn is it to play etc. That steely determination the 2 guys had really impressed me, we lost by the way.

slingerz

jtown wrote: »

Maybe getting bare numbers is cause people know the same fellows are always on.
Give the Excel sheet to all managers - for all club teams is what I'm thinking

possibly but we changed managers this year for purcell and still no good. i made both teams so had no issues with either manager

WheresMyPar

jtown wrote: »

This is only a small bit of the stats I would keep.. I would be bringing in lots more (GIR, Fairways, putts, up and downs etc) - The manager would keep these and let all players see the stats - If player not performing it would ask them to think should they hit the practice range before the next match!

Your asking a bit much hear every player is different its not how but how many,
I play for teams its simple you compete for your place in the format the comp is played,
And as a manager you will never keep everybody happy

blue note

I like the idea of it op, but I just don't think it'll work. I also think it would be quite unfair on a retired person compared to a man with a young family - he might get out as often as he can but the retired guy could be paying twice a week. So even if the retired guy isn't playing as well on average he'd likely be in ahead of the other guy.

That said, it would be great if you'd do something like that and use it for part of your selection.

Hoof Hearted2

Domo1982 wrote: »

Elite Singles?

Exactly, playing partners are more important in inter club comps than playing ability, especially in foursomes, Purcell, Bruen etc.

PARlance

jtown wrote: »

So – thinking of going to manage a club team next year and want to get going on what type of stats I will keep..

Anyone here has history of this…?

I’m thinking of a spreadsheet of stats cause usually they don’t lie and picking the team can be a lot easier if you have excel sheet to show are players.
No buddy buddy system then and all players know exactly what they have to do to make the team

Some ideas.
1pt play in club comp
1pt over 35 pts
2pts over 38 pts etc etc
Practice match – 3pts win/ 1pt halve

Every time the players play they know it will count towards the making of the team - Encourage them never to give up on those Sunday morning - Encourage them to practice more and more


Does anyone have anything like this in place in their club?

Cheers

Nice fair idea but probably a bit too nice for most interclub comps if you want to be successful.

In the least cynical way possible, you may be left with a group of improving golfers (who may struggle to play to new HC's) rather than steady, more experienced golfers.

The Rape of Lucretia

Genuinely, I think its a great idea. Fair play.
If you access, time, and motivation, I would go through the results from the previous year. Dont think I would give points for just playing, but would give some weight to good scores, if not quite as much as to ones from this year. Something like a 'Golfer of the year' system for those in the handicap range - that itself could be worth a look through and allocate some points depending on where you eligible golfers finished on it).
While I understand the temptation to include the less quantifiable elements of experience, matchplay sang froid, and shots-in-the-bag banditry as useful elements to improve a teams chances, I still think your algorithm is more just.

(And lets face it, in the handicap team comps at least, no honest team can really get very far, let alone win one, so picking a team on genuine merit is a more equitable way to pick a losing team than just on whim, heresay, reputation, etc).

jtown

Thanks to all who posted!

Few things -

1. We have a large amount of players to pick from in the h/c ranges as we have a big membership but lots of people don't play for lots of reasons and that's fair enough. However lots of people don't play because they have practised all year and been messed around when team was selected (usually the buddy of the management gets picked ahead of players in form)
2. I want to make it completely transparent on selection so if (and when) we lose there is no disapproval on team selection
3. I did a very simple look at most improved golfer report I have access to in the club and it was amazing to see who lost and who potentially should have been on the team – usually stats don’t like and our case was correct bar 1 pairing (hence maybe 1 captain’s pick could be an idea)

@blue note
If a “young fellow” plays every day and gets 4x.1s back and “retired guy” plays once and is in the buffer zone he will be ahead however that’s why we give points for comps played also – again I need to sit down and actually think about how to work the excel sheet

WheresMyPar

It all sounds good but cant see it working

mafc

WheresMyPar wrote: »

It all sounds good but cant see it working

In theory it sounds good but putting it into practice will prove very difficult.

Availability , form , suitability (foursomes)
and ability to play away courses will be high on the agenda. Of course match play records have to be taken into account. Some food for thought is that the best golfers don't always make the best match play players.

The Rape of Lucretia

WheresMyPar wrote: »

It all sounds good but cant see it working

Why not ? Or does it depend what you mean by working (picking a team with a transparent criteria, or picking a winning team ?) ?.
No reason why his numerical points system will not end up with a team picked openly and fairly.
(Sure it 'fails' if the aim is to pick his buddies, or to try to win by identifying the most manipulated handicaps - but it seems that is not what the op is trying to do).

jtown

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Why not ? Or does it depend what you mean by working (picking a team with a transparent criteria, or picking a winning team ?) ?.
No reason why his numerical points system will not end up with a team picked openly and fairly.
(Sure it 'fails' if the aim is to pick his buddies, or to try to win by identifying the most manipulated handicaps - but it seems that is not what the op is trying to do).

My aim is to pick a team that deserves to play, who play in club competitions, play in practice matches, who put the time into trying for the team and more importantly representing their club with pride.

If the team wins it wins but by the stats you give the best opportunity to IMO.

What I want to stop is practice for 6 weeks and then 2 weeks to go a "buddy" of the management comes along plays 1 practice match (wins) and then starts the team.

Imagine if the Ryder Cup Teams were picked by management only and not the points table!

opinionated3

I wish the op well in this endeavour. I like how he is striving for openness and transparency. Our club is very much in the old school ways. .....a few trials in the weeks running up the opening match (which not everyone can make sure to working shift etc) and then the inevitable team selection consisting of older lads who either played in the comp before or who are friends with the relevant team manager. It's very demoralising for those of us that feel like who are playing well but can't make all the trials for one reason or another so the manager selects those who he is familiar with. It has resulted in our teams making very little progress in purcell, bruen etc even though i would class the level of golfer playing in our club to be of a high standard. Whilst not wishing to copy the OP's super idea i may attend our agm this year with a view to raising the issue and maybe demonstrating that there are viable alternatives to the current "system" that passes for selecting teams for national comps. Best wishes OP

jtown

opinionated3 wrote: »

I wish the op well in this endeavour. I like how he is striving for openness and transparency. Our club is very much in the old school ways. .....a few trials in the weeks running up the opening match (which not everyone can make sure to working shift etc) and then the inevitable team selection consisting of older lads who either played in the comp before or who are friends with the relevant team manager. It's very demoralising for those of us that feel like who are playing well but can't make all the trials for one reason or another so the manager selects those who he is familiar with. It has resulted in our teams making very little progress in purcell, bruen etc even though i would class the level of golfer playing in our club to be of a high standard. Whilst not wishing to copy the OP's super idea i may attend our agm this year with a view to raising the issue and maybe demonstrating that there are viable alternatives to the current "system" that passes for selecting teams for national comps. Best wishes OP

Thanks for the message, I would like peoples feedback on my scoring sheet once I make an initial start on it

Looks like the general feedback about my approach is positive

WheresMyPar

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Why not ? Or does it depend what you mean by working (picking a team with a transparent criteria, or picking a winning team ?) ?.
No reason why his numerical points system will not end up with a team picked openly and fairly.
(Sure it 'fails' if the aim is to pick his buddies, or to try to win by identifying the most manipulated handicaps - but it seems that is not what the op is trying to do).

I Agree it will pick a team openly and fairly,
But will it pick a winning team,
Its a managers job to win that's how he is judged he has to pick his strongest team,
1 or 2 could be buddies but somebody will always have a say so and so is playing because,
And identifying manipulated handicaps if there is such a thing,

Hoof Hearted2

jtown wrote: »

Thanks to all who posted!

Few things -

1. We have a large amount of players to pick from in the h/c ranges as we have a big membership but lots of people don't play for lots of reasons and that's fair enough. However lots of people don't play because they have practised all year and been messed around when team was selected (usually the buddy of the management gets picked ahead of players in form)
2. I want to make it completely transparent on selection so if (and when) we lose there is no disapproval on team selection
3. I did a very simple look at most improved golfer report I have access to in the club and it was amazing to see who lost and who potentially should have been on the team – usually stats don’t like and our case was correct bar 1 pairing (hence maybe 1 captain’s pick could be an idea)

@blue note
If a “young fellow” plays every day and gets 4x.1s back and “retired guy” plays once and is in the buffer zone he will be ahead however that’s why we give points for comps played also – again I need to sit down and actually think about how to work the excel sheet

Hey jtown, a quick heads up for you re:managing an interclub team, there is no need for long drawn out explanations, those who have managed teams in the past understand the variables involved and as such are very unlikely to criticize in public but may have a quite word in private, while those who haven't managed a team tend to be quick to judge and be vocal in their public criticism, so the way to answer the public critics is not to bombard them with statistics or long drawn out explanations, but simply say you gave it your best shot and put it up to them that if they think they can do a better then they should put themselves forward next year.

jtown

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

Hey jtown, a quick heads up for you re:managing an interclub team, there is no need for long drawn out explanations, those who have managed teams in the past understand the variables involved and as such are very unlikely to criticize in public but may have a quite word in private, while those who haven't managed a team tend to be quick to judge and be vocal in their public criticism, so the way to answer the public critics is not to bombard them with statistics or long drawn out explanations, but simply say you gave it your best shot and put it up to them that if they think they can do a better then they should put themselves forward next year.

Of course - I completely understand that. It is noting about criticism. Its about rewarding players for their practice and competition golf and them making the team. I think IMO that those players then have the best chance of winning - If we loose we loose but the best team tried.

The history says that they haven't tried this and the history hasn't been kind to us. Its about trying something different to see if that works.

Hoof Hearted2

jtown wrote: »

Of course - I completely understand that. It is noting about criticism. Its about rewarding players for their practice and competition golf and them making the team. I think IMO that those players then have the best chance of winning - If we loose we loose but the best team tried.

The history says that they haven't tried this and the history hasn't been kind to us. Its about trying something different to see if that works.

I'm all for try something different, but there is a danger of becoming overly technical over analysing stats ect. Remember the quote "lies, damned lies and statistics".

IMO it's more about a positive attitude, in the past, Killarney teams I have played against seem to play with a fear of failure, and inevitably beat themselves, anyway enjoy the experience and have a positive outlook.