Are we mad? 90k extension on 3 bed semi.

comerla

Hi,

We live in an area that we like a lot - and have an 1100 square foot 3 bed semi with one bathroom. We have a tracker so it would cost us 10k extra a year in interest alone to move to a bigger house but we might end up doing this in 10 years when kids get bigger and the house is paid off.

After thinking about it for years we bit the bullet this year and hired an architect - drawings are being finalised currently for an extension that will give us a utility room, bathroom, and allow us to use the front room as a kids room/ guest bedroom. The architect has had some great suggestions - this will open up 40 square meters in the main area in back living area/ kitchen, well lit with velux windows etc. (its south west facing at the back). We will however need to move the kitchen to the interior of the house, so all plumbing, electrical fittings etc need to be moved too. The bathroom/ utility will be right in the middle of the house (only way you could do this without putting it out the back).

The build cost we're looking at 60k minimum (will be going to tender). We want to put in a nice kitchen with quartz counter tops, cooker in the island etc (13k max). Also I've been quoted 10k to push back the garden, build a new retaining wall and tier and landscape the garden. So including contingency we're looking at 90k.

My inlaws are saying we'd be crazy to spend this, that a 3 bed semi is a 3 bed semi, we'll lose the money, and that we should just stick a bathroom onto the back of the house (thereby blocking out the light coming into the living area). We wouldn't mind living in a nice house at this stage though!

Are they right, or are we likely to get - say - half of the cost back if we sell?

Any advice/ opinions appreciated.

BryanF

looking at 30m2 extension and external envelop of existing building coming in with budget figures of 70 ex vat
Probably 15/20k renewable heating on top of this and then there's 500€ for skips and scaffolding at 4.5k !

Building is not cheap, but are we at the lower end of property prices? And my real question to you is - if you could guarentee lower energy costs and internal 21deg comfort al year round, would this factor into your decision?

Calahonda52

I suppose one way of looking at it is:
Current market value is say 300k
Current mortgage is 150k
So at worst it will now be 300 less 240 which is still positive equity.

If the math stacks and you can afford the new debt having done some interest rate stress testing then I would do it.
Your in-laws are forgetting the fact that living in a brightly lit comfortable house that you like and look forward to coming home to and living in and entertaining etc has hugh value, as does having a kids room where your kids are where you know they are.

We did something similar years ago, moving the kitchen down the back, sort of into the garden and we never regretted it.

However this seems not what you are doing
We will however need to move the kitchen to the interior of the house: that's regressive

Tigger99

Even excluding that that's a very optimistic budget I think you are taking a big risk with the design of an interior kitchen. What if you hate it or have problems selling as buyers hate it.

comerla

Thanks both for comments so far

Calahonda52 wrote: »

I suppose one way of looking at it is:

We will need to move the kitchen to the interior of the house: that's regressive

Interesting feedback - in my original ideas I had left the kitchen where it was (along the side of house) but Architect was saying that given location of new fittings for bathroom, would make sense to move kitchen inside near bathroom, so the living room basically will be opening into the garden. I dont know much about architecture/ design - this is what my parents have in their extension so it makes sense. Might revisit this point with architect.

trishasaffron

On the principle of making your house suitable for you to live in its a no brainer - life is short and where and how you live is most important. Many older people don't get this.......they don't see how miserable and gloomy their houses are cos refurbishment is a relatively recent phenomenon.

If you want to reduce costs you can. You can get a great kitchen for 5k. Also - with respect - your design sounds v architect driven. Architects view kitchens as similar to utility rooms - a functional space that can be in the dark middle. Nonsense, the kitchen is number one priority and should be in prime bright position. My architect kept pushing my kitchen away from the windows and every time the drawings were done I had to raise hell to get it back to the sun. It was worth it.

comerla

trishasaffron wrote: »

On the principle of making your house suitable for you to live in its a no brainer - life is short and where and how you live is most important. Many older people don't get this.......they don't see how miserable and gloomy their houses are cos refurbishment is a relatively recent phenomenon.
.

My sentiments exactly.

Was worried we've just been watching too much room to improve and will come to regret it - hence the thread.

Water John

There is quite the possibility, since you like the area, that having done the upgrade, you may not move at all.
If its within your budget and its what you want to do, go for it, but as others have said, don't hide away the kitchen. Don't know your layout but usually attach it to the living space, distinct but a common area.
Architects and Engineers are there to advise you, but believe me I have seen some brutal designs in my time. Its your house.

mrsWhippy

I definitely wouldn't move the kitchen to the interior, unless there was a way of getting direct light to the area.

You could post up some floor plans (with the details blanked out) and you might get some suggestions as to how to rework the space.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

comerla

edit

murphaph

90k for an additional 13m²? Is that correct?

comerla

murphaph wrote: »

90k for an additional 13m²? Is that correct?

yes - actually just looking again it looks like 18 meters additional space.

External build will be 28 sq meters with the rest internal, as per the plan in total 46 square meters to be built.

Turtle_

trishasaffron wrote: »

Architects view kitchens as similar to utility rooms - a functional space that can be in the dark middle. Nonsense, the kitchen is number one priority and should be in prime bright position. My architect kept pushing my kitchen away from the windows and every time the drawings were done I had to raise hell to get it back to the sun. It was worth it.

I work with lots of architects and have never, ever found that to be the case. Especially where families are concerned, any I've worked with have seen it as a really important integral part of modern living.

The proposed layout seems to make a lot of sense - the plumbing is concentrated in one area and there's lots of light coming in from windows and rooflights. It's also open plan without being loopy - there's nothing worse than complete open plan with the noise of washing machines echoing through it and kids TV blaring and so on. This gives a good quality family living space, and also sections off the noisier and messier aspects of family life (kids toys, washing machines)...

What's currently there (if it's in the return at the back) is a pokey galley kitchen (No offence, OP, it just is..) and in terms of function and light the best place for a kitchen is where the architect has put it. There'll be light all day - in the morning through the rooflights and the rest of the day it'll also come through the windows. Moving it further to the back just means you end up with a darker room because the kitchen will block the full length windows.

Why not ask your architect to do a sketchup model? (Or if you're handy with a PC you could do one yourself from the plans). It'd give you a feel for it.


Also, your inlaws are mad. There's a huge difference between a 3 bed semi that's never been modernised and a 4 bed semi that is light and bright and has all the mod cons, is nice and warm, has proper storage, an extra living room and downstairs bathroom.

Dudda

Think it's a nice layout. Don't skimp on the velux (or similar brand) rooflights. Keep them large, get them white / moisture coating so steam from the kitchen doesn't damage them. These will provide most of the light to the kitchen area.

I'd also make the new window opening to the left of the kitchen as big as possible to let as much light in as you can even if the view isn't great.

Don't see the point in trying to retain the tiny bit of wall of the existing rear extension which will have the new 1600mm wide high level window in it. You'd be as well as rebuilding this rather than trying to retain it.

It's not cheap but you'll have a great open plan bright, warm and comfortable open plan family space with a utility to hide stuff which can only add value to the house. I'd definitely do it.

blb83

Your house is first and foremost a place you need to live in day in, day out so you might as well make it a home you like going back to.

This 'investment' thinking that you will never get your 90k back is ridiculous. You get your 90k back in the sense that you have a much higher quality of life and you actually enjoy living there.

Turtle_

blb83 wrote: »

Your house is first and foremost a place you need to live in day in, day out so you might as well make it a home you like going back to.

This 'investment' thinking that you will never get your 90k back is ridiculous. You get your 90k back in the sense that you have a much higher quality of life and you actually enjoy living there.

Spot on.


OP, another way of looking at it is "I want a certain quality and quantity of space. How much will it cost me to move and buy that space, and much will it cost me to change what I have to get that space?". There's a programme called Double Your House for Half The Money that deals with exactly this.


If you are doubting yourself after the in-laws, think about it this way. If you were looking to buy a house, would you pay more for one renovated the way you want, or one with an afterthought bathroom on the back?

comerla

I actually started this from a sketchup model to see what we could do with the space 3 years ago.

comerla

Turtle_ wrote: »

Spot on.


OP, another way of looking at it is "I want a certain quality and quantity of space. How much will it cost me to move and buy that space, and much will it cost me to change what I have to get that space?". There's a programme called Double Your House for Half The Money that deals with exactly this.


If you are doubting yourself after the in-laws, think about it this way. If you were looking to buy a house, would you pay more for one renovated the way you want, or one with an afterthought bathroom on the back?

This is exactly what we did - we looked at reasons for upgrading, pros and cons and can tick most of the boxes except one (one of the bedrooms will be a box room so smaller than we would like) at a fraction of the total cost of buying a new bigger house.

Turtle_

The important thing in all of this is that you're happy with what you're getting. Maybe your architect can bring you to visit a similar project and you can get a feel for it?

comerla

@Turtle we can see similar stuff he did on his website so probably not necessary (although some of the earlier comments here had me a little worried there for a bit!).

trishasaffron

Coming back to kitchens and light........for me there is nothing that comes close to having the sink in front of a window that looks out on the garden.........my architect just didn't get this and wanted to have it looking at the wall or in an island. Yes it would have had design advantages not to go that way but in quality of life terms I'm really glad I insisted. Standing at the sink looking out at the garden and birds is the most restful time in my day.

WestWicklow1

comerla wrote: »

Are they right, or are we likely to get - say - half of the cost back if we sell?

Any advice/ opinions appreciated.

It depends entirely on how long after extending you sell.

I spent IR£20k on an extension and got 10 times that back on top of the average value of the original 3 bed semi. But guess how long I kept it

Bicycle

We have an internal kitchen with a design somewhat similar to yours.

The sink is on an island in the middle, the cooker against a wall.

The person designing the renovations thought I was nuts. But I would prefer to have a sitting area overlooking the garden, with sliding doors I can open in summer, than having a good view from my sink. My plan was, and always has been , to spend more time sitting on my couch than up to my elbows in sink water.

A good lighting plan will make your kitchen far easier to use. Light coloured presses and reflective worktops helps. We have a peninsula with light coloured cupboards on one side facing into the kitchen and dark coloured cupboards facing towards the living area (and darker furniture). It acts as a lovely but functional space divider.

The space has been wonderful. Great for parties and family get togethers. The whole back wall is just 2/3 size windows with a sliding door in the middle. We have scented roses near the windows, so on a sunny day you can just open the windows and let the scent waft in.

Turtle_

trishasaffron wrote: »

Coming back to kitchens and light........for me there is nothing that comes close to having the sink in front of a window that looks out on the garden.........my architect just didn't get this and wanted to have it looking at the wall or in an island. Yes it would have had design advantages not to go that way but in quality of life terms I'm really glad I insisted. Standing at the sink looking out at the garden and birds is the most restful time in my day.

I totally get that, everyone's wish list is different and in the vast majority of cases, good design is striking a balance between what you want and what you're willing to sacrifice. In your case you have your beautiful view over the garden, but in the OP's case, to achieve that would be to sacrifice this:

Bicycle wrote: »

The whole back wall is just 2/3 size windows with a sliding door in the middle. We have scented roses near the windows, so on a sunny day you can just open the windows and let the scent waft in.

The OP's original design isn't half bad, and the architect has listened to it and produced something quite similar, but with a lot more light being allowed in. It all depends on your priorities and a good designer should listen and do the best possible design that suits those.

Sometimes an architect will suggest something that you didn't think you initially wanted, or other people can suggest things and people get confused about what they want. The best thing for this is to go back to the architect and honestly say "I can't visualize this, can you show me somewhere something similar has been done?". It's so much easier to make decisions when you can walk around somewhere and get a feel for the space.

The design the OP has is hugely suited to young families, especially the big windows that allow kids to come in and out of the garden, parents can keep an eye on them and see them in the garden from the kitchen/living room, whoever is cooking isn't cut off from everyone else and people can move easily from the table to the couch and have a glass of wine with the garden doors open...

It's a popular design for a reason - it really works for people. But it's not for everyone. But I suppose that's getting off the point, which is that it's a) cheaper than moving to get what the OP wants and b) definitely going to add value to the house.

mrsWhippy

I really like your layout actually, definitely the best use of space.

We came across a similar dilemma when gettting our plans drawn up. We could either have an internal kitchen (albeit with rooflights etc) and the sitting area near the windows, or alternatively the kitchen at the end of the room overlooking the garden.

My decision was made when I imagined making a cup of coffee on a Saturday morning. Would I see myself making it in the kitchen and then retreating into a more internal sitting area to drink it, or would i prefer to bring it over to the 'light' and sit overlooking the garden? I think people generally migrate towards the brightest part of the house naturally ... so in that respect you'd just end up sitting in your kitchen the whole time.

Our layout will be very similar to yours, I think it will work for us!

JonathonS

Bicycle wrote: »

I would prefer to have a sitting area overlooking the garden, with sliding doors I can open in summer, than having a good view from my sink. My plan was, and always has been , to spend more time sitting on my couch than up to my elbows in sink water.

We did the same, for the same reasons, and it has worked out well. No view from the sink, but lovely views of the garden when we are eating or relaxing. There is still plenty of light in the kitchen area, accentuated by lots of striplights under the press units.

bemak

trishasaffron wrote: »

Architects view kitchens as similar to utility rooms - a functional space that can be in the dark middle.

Nonsense! No architect worth his/her salt would think this

bemak

just looking at your model, my first reaction would be to put the utility behind the sitting room like the diagram below - gives you a better proportioned room to work with as kitchen / dining. putting the utility here also takes up a darker part of the plan.

For the rest you could put the kitchen up against the utility room which would be better in terms of servicing (all together)

or else you could have the wall of the utility become a big bookshelf / TV wall etc.

just my two cents!

comerla

bemak wrote: »

just looking at your model, my first reaction would be to put the utility behind the sitting room like the diagram below - gives you a better proportioned room to work with as kitchen / dining. putting the utility here also takes up a darker part of the plan.

For the rest you could put the kitchen up against the utility room which would be better in terms of servicing (all together)

or else you could have the wall of the utility become a big bookshelf / TV wall etc.

just my two cents!

Thanks Bemak. Our architect ended up doing this (and more) - I just took their design down because it is their IP and its not my place to be sticking it up here..

bemak

Of course. Plus I wouldn't like my design being critiqued online either

comerla

That wasnt the original intention here - we trust him however some of the initial feedback on what I was describing was pretty negative so I couldn't resist putting the plan out there briefly!

Spanish Eyes

The lady of the house will make the decisions.

If that is you, grand, otherwise, make sure SHE is on board. That's all.

comerla

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The lady of the house will make the decisions.

If that is you, grand, otherwise, make sure SHE is on board. That's all.

Indeed she will. She thought the feedback here was great too btw.