Fair deal scheme

Fat Cant

My father has gone into a nursing home and he has land (60 ac) and a farm house which has all been in the family for 6 generations .
My father has been a very difficult man all his life, always went against his family and put the farm into alot of debt .
I live in the farm house and farm his bit of land and I managed to clear all his debts .
The reason he went in to the nursing home is because he has depression but apart from that he is very healthy and could live a very long time.
I asked him to come home and then when that didn't work i asked him to transfer his assets over to stop the nursing home from getting them but he is death against all of that , he also works very private and won't tell the family what he is arranging with fair deal scheme (he clames it is none of our business).
What way does the fair deal scheme work when you have a farm ?

_Brian

It's explained here.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/health_services/health_services_for_older_people/nursing_homes_support_scheme_1.html

case956tom

Fat Cant wrote: »

My father has gone into a nursing home and he has land (60 ac) and a farm house which has all been in the family for 6 generations .
My father has been a very difficult man all his life, always went against his family and put the farm into alot of debt .
I live in the farm house and farm his bit of land and I managed to clear all his debts .
The reason he went in to the nursing home is because he has depression but apart from that he is very healthy and could live a very long time.
I asked him to come home and then when that didn't work i asked him to transfer his assets over to stop the nursing home from getting them but he is death against all of that , he also works very private and won't tell the family what he is arranging with fair deal scheme (he clames it is none of our business).
What way does the fair deal scheme work when you have a farm ?

when my mum went into a nursing home a few years ago i had to produce the deeds to the place thankfully its in my name over 20 years,i herd it had to be transferred over 5 years to qualify for the fair deal scheme,thats about all i know about it my mums pension kept her.

J.O. Farmer

The farm is an asset and will be valued at whatever and count towards his means. The farm house will only count a certain percentage.
Your too late now to transfer the land unless you keep him out of the home for 5 years though.
The fair deal will calculate his means per week and if it'sbelow the cost of the nursing home the state will pay the balance. He'll have to pay the amount of the means for the fair deal or he can defer it until he dies and then the bill will have to be paid ffrom the estate. That'll mean whoever will inherit the assets will inherit the bill.

Belongamick

Other options for care might be a 'live in' carer or nurse.
Friend of mine has an overseas nurse living with his mother to maintain care - there is a cost involved but the least worst option for that family..

_Brian

Belongamick wrote: »

Other options for care might be a 'live in' carer or nurse.
Friend of mine has an overseas nurse living with his mother to maintain care - there is a cost involved but the least worst option for that family..

Great idea.
Know someone doing the same and they are the better for being on their own surroundings too. If it's an option it's well worth considering.

rangler1

_Brian wrote: »

Great idea.
Know someone doing the same and they are the better for being on their own surroundings too. If it's an option it's well worth considering.

Full time care involves 5 nurses/carers at least to equal nursing home care. Unfortunately fair deal is no help to landowners .....

BronsonTB

PM sent.

_Brian

rangler1 wrote: »

Full time care involves 5 nurses/carers at least to equal nursing home care. Unfortunately fair deal is no help to landowners .....

Yea but often people end up in nursing homes who with a little help could be at home in their own homes which is always a much More preferable situation.

Kristopherus

rangler1 wrote: »

Full time care involves 5 nurses/carers at least to equal nursing home care. Unfortunately fair deal is no help to landowners .....

All the details are here:

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/4/olderpeople/nhss/

adrianm1234

Need info too re this much same situation .farming my uncles land for past 10 years.he ran it but I did all the donkey work. He had stoke in march 16.discharged to nursing home 2 weeks ago.fair deal about to be processed . At odds as to whether to stay paying nursing home fees or enter the fair deal. I think I could scrape by paying fees for a but a year but then finances would be running out. All farm in his name but he wanted me to takeover farm which I would live to do.The bill at end of days seems a substantial amount and I've to sign up to running the farm for time he living in care of nursing home .All income from which that would be profit 80% would go to fair deal scheme plus 80% of pension.I think I'll get a cap on farm and house after 3 years as sudden illness and he was actively running the farm until stroke.This does not make the farm viable at all and with the bill down the line it seems as though his wishes of me running the farm and handing it down the generatios to come will not be a reality due to this bill.it's not a fair deal at all really. Especially when you consider the patient in same room as him on talking to that persons daughter drank every penny he had all his life and has zero after his days and 80% of his pension covers his care. Is there any incentive to be productive and hard working through life you would wonder when you consider where my uncle and this individual both ended up and there differing financial circumstances now. Who is better off.Not my uncle by the looks of things. I need advice as to what is best The budget from media before hand stated that it would ease up on assets but nothing happen. Please can someone advise on best course.Thanks in advance

BronsonTB

Get independent legal advise from someone that knows how the fair deal scheme works & see how it will apply best to you. Usually 2 options, pay now or defer to pay later. But don't take advise from here as it can vary in each situation. Plenty of financial advisors that can guide you.

Either way it is designed so that some of the cost of your uncles care is paid for by his 'assets'. Depending on the carehome used, it's cost, his pension & the value of all his assets, all comes into play. It's not there to take anything away from you as such but there to help cover some of the costs in caring for him now. (And save the state paying everything for everybody as they just can't afford it)

adrianm1234

BronsonTB wrote: »

Get independent legal advise from someone that knows how the fair deal scheme works & see how it will apply best to you. Usually 2 options, pay now or defer to pay later. But don't take advise from here as it can vary in each situation. Plenty of financial advisors that can guide you.

Either way it is designed so that some of the cost of your uncles care is paid for by his 'assets'. Depending on the carehome used, it's cost, his pension & the value of all his assets, all comes into play. It's not there to take anything away from you as such but there to help cover some of the costs in caring for him now. (And save the state paying everything for everybody as they just can't afford it)

Thanks for advice.will do.Trying to find someone that can give that independent advice is proving difficult though.his accountant doesn't know what is best teagasc advisor said he can empathise as in similar situation. Revenue advisor doesn't know anything about fair deal I even rang the tax collector generals office and they don't seem to know. The search goes on but hopefully I'll find someone that can give advise tailored to suit my situation.If income was not taken into account of which there is none at present I could build up farm and try and put something aside to facilitate paying some of the bill or to help with pay as you go.it's a big decision .

BronsonTB

I've drop you a PM with an advisor that does know about it.

adrianm1234

BronsonTB wrote: »

I'll drop you a PM with an advisor that does no about it.

Thanks a million

Muckit

What if the uncle were to transfer the farm to you now, then he would have no assets and qualify for fairdeal?

He could obviously draw up a few terms and conditions with this that you'd help him out in other ways, but it might not end up in having to dispose of the farm.

You can only do so much at the end of the day. Try not ro let it worry you. What will be will be.

rangler1

Muckit wrote: »

What if the uncle were to transfer the farm to you now, then he would have no assets and qualify for fairdeal?

He could obviously draw up a few terms and conditions with this that you'd help him out in other ways, but it might not end up in having to dispose of the farm.

You can only do so much at the end of the day. Try not ro let it worry you. What will be will be.

Don't know how they can enforce it, but you're not free of paying for the nursing home until you have the farm transferred for five years..
You'd imagine that once you didn't own the farm, the government couldn't make it liable

I said

Has to be transferred five years before they go into the county home otherwise they can claim it.
By reading your query here your on a hiding to nothing with it.
After 14 weeks(not sure exactly)been in the home the pied piper has to be paid one way or the other.

adrianm1234

Muckit wrote: »

What if the uncle were to transfer the farm to you now, then he would have no assets and qualify for fairdeal?

He could obviously draw up a few terms and conditions with this that you'd help him out in other ways, but it might not end up in having to dispose of the farm.

You can only do so much at the end of the day. Try not ro let it worry you. What will be will be.

Thanks Muckit .your right whatever will be will be . It just needs a bit of thought to go the right way about things. The scheme states that the assets must have been transferred out of person needing cares name 5 years prior to his admission to a nursing home and entry into the scheme for the farm and house not to be included in the calculation. Got some good advice today which helped.It's still a totally unfair deal but it seems it's the only show in town at present.It's something that especially in the farming community that has caused (and will more into the future if not reformed ) great concern.it's forcing farmers in a lot of cases to hand over the reigns before their time. To hang up the boots to avoid the situation that we find ourselves in.In a lot of cases older farmers find it difficult to do so in that they feel like they are giving up control and their way of life .I know of farmers working well into their 80s happy out not because they have to but because they want to.I have been told recently of of a farmer in his early 60s who died suddenly. His son worked the farm with him all his life also working off farm.His father did not have a will made and all went to his wife who has dementia and is not deemed capable of making a will.She now will need nursing home care and due to their financial situation will have to enter the fair deal scheme also. There are no safeguards in place for the son.Even if his mother was fully with it mentally but needed care in a nursing home because the farm was not in his name 5 years prior to needing the fair deal 7.5% of it value and 7.5% of the house value would be liable per year for 3 years plus 80% of any net profit. If the farm was left to the son within 5 years prior to needing care although the farm would be owned by him it would still be considered as his mothers asset and it's worth/value used in the calculation of the cost of his mothers care. In this situation the house would be capped at 3 years for calculation but farm would be a rolling 7.5% of farms value per year for as long as his mother needed care leading to what could be an astronomical amount of money along with 80% of all income profit from farm and 80% of pension.it's crazy but I'll adopt the mantra whatever will be will be .I am surprised though that farmers are not more vocal about this.Not alone farmers but also small family businesses and anyone with an asset who maybe asset rich but cash poor.Thanks for all the advice and help.

J.O. Farmer

Muckit wrote: »

What if the uncle were to transfer the farm to you now, then he would have no assets and qualify for fairdeal?

He could obviously draw up a few terms and conditions with this that you'd help him out in other ways, but it might not end up in having to dispose of the farm.

You can only do so much at the end of the day. Try not ro let it worry you. What will be will be.

If it's the uncles farm and it's being ran for the uncle by someone else would that person not be entitled to draw a wage for running the farm. Unless it's a very big and well run farm it's hard to see much profit left for the nursing home.

After that it's the value of the asset that'd count. However how are they able to take into account the value of the asset AND the income from it. Hypothetically if the farm was sold the uncle would get the market value in cash but the cash would not bring in an income if say left sitting a bank account but if being farmed profitably it's still worth the same market value and generating income.

adrianm1234

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

If it's the uncles farm and it's being ran for the uncle by someone else would that person not be entitled to draw a wage for running the farm. Unless it's a very big and well run farm it's hard to see much profit left for the nursing home.

After that it's the value of the asset that'd count. However how are they able to take into account the value of the asset AND the income from it. Hypothetically if the farm was sold the uncle would get the market value in cash but the cash would not bring in an income if say left sitting a bank account but if being farmed profitably it's still worth the same market value and generating income.

The scheme requires farm accounts and 6 months statements of bank account/sto be furnished.This includes any grants as income if showing a net profit..if any net profit 80% taken.if any moneys exceeding e36000 80% above this figure would be taken.(72000 if married)If I take a wage I will be liable for more tax personally.Instead ?if I use money to improve farm replace gates put in crushes where needed hypothetically reducing the farm accounts to break even or to the red the income is not taken into account.Yet I have to sign up to farm the land whilst in the scheme and either pay as I go each week approx e450 have no bill at the the end of my uncles days or for for option B and take a fair deal loan which is the same amount over 3 years and pay a lump sum as farm capped at 3 years calculation of 7.5% weekly along with house.The income though is a continuous 80% of nett profit for duration of scheme.In some ways I'm lucky that it was not signed over during the 5 years prior to his illness as the farm 7.5% of value yearly would be rolling every year for duration. It's a catch 22.I am in the middle of building my house on the farm which was started prior to all this happening and the plan was that when the time would come that he would live with us as house had a bedroom downstairs for him not thinking that this would happen and his care needs would be so great and even at that ,that the support in the community would be so little to make it impossible (10 hours a week 1 carer.5 hrs if 2 needed he needs 3 to get in any out of bed full hoist).It's just a cruel system.He is settling into the nursing home but I know he would rather be out looking at the fields and the cattle everyday even if only from a window,not just when I can take him out for an hour or 2.Cest last vie

rangler1

adrianm1234 wrote: »

Thanks Muckit .your right whatever will be will be . It just needs a bit of thought to go the right way about things. The scheme states that the assets must have been transferred out of person needing cares name 5 years prior to his admission to a nursing home and entry into the scheme for the farm and house not to be included in the calculation. Got some good advice today which helped.It's still a totally unfair deal but it seems it's the only show in town at present.It's something that especially in the farming community that has caused (and will more into the future if not reformed ) great concern.it's forcing farmers in a lot of cases to hand over the reigns before their time. To hang up the boots to avoid the situation that we find ourselves in.In a lot of cases older farmers find it difficult to do so in that they feel like they are giving up control and their way of life .I know of farmers working well into their 80s happy out not because they have to but because they want to.I have been told recently of of a farmer in his early 60s who died suddenly. His son worked the farm with him all his life also working off farm.His father did not have a will made and all went to his wife who has dementia and is not deemed capable of making a will.She now will need nursing home care and due to their financial situation will have to enter the fair deal scheme also. There are no safeguards in place for the son.Even if his mother was fully with it mentally but needed care in a nursing home because the farm was not in his name 5 years prior to needing the fair deal 7.5% of it value and 7.5% of the house value would be liable per year for 3 years plus 80% of any net profit. If the farm was left to the son within 5 years prior to needing care although the farm would be owned by him it would still be considered as his mothers asset and it's worth/value used in the calculation of the cost of his mothers care. In this situation the house would be capped at 3 years for calculation but farm would be a rolling 7.5% of farms value per year for as long as his mother needed care leading to what could be an astronomical amount of money along with 80% of all income profit from farm and 80% of pension.it's crazy but I'll adopt the mantra whatever will be will be .I am surprised though that farmers are not more vocal about this.Not alone farmers but also small family businesses and anyone with an asset who maybe asset rich but cash poor.Thanks for all the advice and help.

Young farmers on home farms should be made aware of the risk of this happening, plenty of ladowners aren't prepared to discuss the future and leave their sons/daughters vulnerable especially those full time on the farm.
nursing home bills of €50000/year wouldn't be long leaving a farm unviable and there's nowillingness on the government to do anything about... this years budget might improve things, at least it's recognised now

degetme

rangler1 wrote: »

Young farmers on home farms should be made aware of the risk of this happening, plenty of ladowners aren't prepared to discuss the future and leave their sons/daughters vulnerable especially those full time on the farm.
nursing home bills of €50000/year wouldn't be long leaving a farm unviable and there's nowillingness on the government to do anything about... this years budget might improve things, at least it's recognised now

+1
Going back five years is a disgrace to the next generation. You could be handed the farm for working on the home farm since ag college and four years later the folks could end up in care and they can claim what was the offsprings inheritance

adrianm1234

rangler1 wrote: »

adrianm1234 wrote: »

Thanks Muckit .your right whatever will be will be . It just needs a bit of thought to go the right way about things. The scheme states that the assets must have been transferred out of person needing cares name 5 years prior to his admission to a nursing home and entry into the scheme for the farm and house not to be included in the calculation. Got some good advice today which helped.It's still a totally unfair deal but it seems it's the only show in town at present.It's something that especially in the farming community that has caused (and will more into the future if not reformed ) great concern.it's forcing farmers in a lot of cases to hand over the reigns before their time. To hang up the boots to avoid the situation that we find ourselves in.In a lot of cases older farmers find it difficult to do so in that they feel like they are giving up control and their way of life .I know of farmers working well into their 80s happy out not because they have to but because they want to.I have been told recently of of a farmer in his early 60s who died suddenly. His son worked the farm with him all his life also working off farm.His father did not have a will made and all went to his wife who has dementia and is not deemed capable of making a will.She now will need nursing home care and due to their financial situation will have to enter the fair deal scheme also. There are no safeguards in place for the son.Even if his mother was fully with it mentally but needed care in a nursing home because the farm was not in his name 5 years prior to needing the fair deal 7.5% of it value and 7.5% of the house value would be liable per year for 3 years plus 80% of any net profit. If the farm was left to the son within 5 years prior to needing care although the farm would be owned by him it would still be considered as his mothers asset and it's worth/value used in the calculation of the cost of his mothers care. In this situation the house would be capped at 3 years for calculation but farm would be a rolling 7.5% of farms value per year for as long as his mother needed care leading to what could be an astronomical amount of money along with 80% of all income profit from farm and 80% of pension.it's crazy but I'll adopt the mantra whatever will be will be .I am surprised though that farmers are not more vocal about this.Not alone farmers but also small family businesses and anyone with an asset who maybe asset rich but cash poor.Thanks for all the advice and help.

Young farmers on home farms should be made aware of the risk of this happening, plenty of ladowners aren't prepared to discuss the future and leave their sons/daughters vulnerable especially those full time on the farm.
nursing home bills of 50000/year wouldn't be long leaving a farm unviable and there's nowillingness on the government to do anything about... this years budget might improve things, at least it's recognised now

The media had that changes were to be made in the budget but no changes were made. It under review .

Fat Cant

adrianm1234 wrote: »

The media had that changes were to be made in the budget but no changes were made. It under review .

It needs to be reviewed. The fair deal is a joke for farmers.