Advice needed please - how much notice am I required to give my landlord?

talkto

I started renting a room in a house on July 9th.

It is a temporary situation - the landlord informed me before I moved in that the room will only be available for two months.

I pay my rent weekly.

The deposit was two weeks' rent worth.

I paid one week's rent plus deposit in full in cash on move in day. I was provided with a rent book where my landlord records my weekly rent payments. The rent book states that is a short term let.

My rent is paid in cash in person to the landlord every week.

No contract or lease was signed at all at any time. It's all been relatively informal. I give my landlord cash every week, and he gives me a room and the rent book.

How much notice do I have to give him if I want to move out?

I want to move out next week but I also want my full deposit back.

Clampdown

talkto wrote: »

I started renting a room in a house on July 9th.

It is a temporary situation - the landlord informed me before I moved in that the room will only be available for two months.

I pay my rent weekly.

The deposit was two weeks' rent worth.

I paid one week's rent plus deposit in full in cash on move in day. I was provided with a rent book where my landlord records my weekly rent payments. The rent book states that is a short term let.

My rent is paid in cash in person to the landlord every week.

No contract or lease was signed at all at any time. It's all been relatively informal. I give my landlord cash every week, and he gives me a room and the rent book.

How much notice do I have to give him if I want to move out?

I want to move out next week but I also want my full deposit back.

You don't have a legal requirement as there was no contract. One week notice should be fine for an informal arrangement. As long as you haven't damaged anything in the 3 weeks you are due your deposit back. If he gives any hassle with that, tell him you'll be sending the rent book in to Revenue as a lot of cash collecting/no lease giving landlords do that because they don't register the tenants and pay tax.

In general, unless you plan to move within 6 months it's much better to sign a lease, even a 6 month one. You have more proof of residence and it states your and your landlord's obligations clearly.

talkto

Clampdown wrote: »

You don't have a legal requirement as there was no contract. One week notice should be fine for an informal arrangement. As long as you haven't damaged anything in the 3 weeks you are due your deposit back. If he gives any hassle with that, tell him you'll be sending the rent book in to Revenue as a lot of cash collecting/no lease giving landlords do that because they don't register the tenants and pay tax.

In general, unless you plan to move within 6 months it's much better to sign a lease, even a 6 month one. You have more proof of residence and it states your and your landlord's obligations clearly.

Are there any legal terms and conditions printed anywhere that confirm what you've said, that I could present to my landlord in case he disputes it?

endacl

Does your landlord live in the house?

4ensic15

Clampdown wrote: »

You don't have a legal requirement as there was no contract. .

What do you mean there was no contract. there was definitely a contract. The minimum notice period for a tenant is 28 days.

athtrasna

4ensic15 wrote: »

What do you mean there was no contract. there was definitely a contract. The minimum notice period for a tenant is 28 days.

We don't know if the landlord lives there so you can't definitively say that

talkto

The house was advertised on Daft as "Not owner occupied."

The man who collects the rent from me, and deals with all issues regarding my rental, lives in the house. He is the previous owner of the house. He says his daughter now owns the house. It is she who is listed as the landlord. She lives in a building in the back garden.

4ensic15

athtrasna wrote: »

We don't know if the landlord lives there so you can't definitively say that

Whether the landlord lives there or not, there is a contract. If the o/p is a tenant there is a 28 day notice period. If the o/p is a licensee then it is a question of construction if he can leave at all before the 2 months is up.

talkto

4ensic15 wrote: »

What do you mean there was no contract.

He means no contract or lease was signed.

talkto

4ensic15 wrote: »

Whether the landlord lives there or not, there is a contract. If the o/p is a tenant there is a 28 day notice period. If the o/p is a licensee then it is a question of construction if he can leave at all before the 2 months is up.

Even though I never expressly agreed to these terms?

ted1

Clampdown wrote: »

tell him you'll be sending the rent book in to Revenue as a lot of cash collecting/no lease giving landlords do that because they don't register the tenants and pay tax.

That's a load of rubbish.

OP does the landlord live in the house ?

talkto

ted1 wrote: »

That's a load of rubbish.

OP does the landlord live in the house ?

The house was advertised on Daft as "Not owner occupied."

The man who collects the rent from me, and deals with all issues regarding my rental, lives in the house. He is the previous owner of the house. He says his daughter now owns the house. It is she who is listed as the landlord. She lives in a building in the back garden.

4ensic15

talkto wrote: »

Even though I never expressly agreed to these terms?

You agreed to a 2 month letting. You did not agree to any early termination condition. If you are not living with the owner it is 28 days. If that individual who acts as landlord is indeed the owner then you have a licence. Your chances of getting your deposit back will turn on how much he wants to keep the arrangement quiet. He may not want the taxman or his ex wife to know about it.

talkto

4ensic15 wrote: »

You agreed to a 2 month letting. You did not agree to any early termination condition. If you are not living with the owner it is 28 days. If that individual who acts as landlord is indeed the owner then you have a licence. Your chances of getting your deposit back will turn on how much he wants to keep the arrangement quiet. He may not want the taxman or his ex wife to know about it.

I didn't agree to anything. No contract or lease was signed.

I didn't even agree to anything verbally - I was told that the room was available for two months, but I never agreed to stay for the two months.

4ensic15

talkto wrote: »

I didn't agree to anything. No contract or lease was signed.

Just because nothing was signed doesn't mean you didn't agree to anything or didn't make a contract. The vast majority of contracts do not involve signatures. You agreed that the maximum availability of the room would be two months. You agreed the rent. You pay the rent.

Clampdown

4ensic15 wrote: »

What do you mean there was no contract. there was definitely a contract. The minimum notice period for a tenant is 28 days.

Did you read the OP's 1st post? it says no contract was signed.

28 days notice is required under the Residential Tenancies act for tenants under 6 months, but that act doesn't apply to short term or holiday lets. Considering the tenant was told he could only stay for 2 months why would he have to give 28 days notice? He would in that case be saying at the end of month 1, I'm moving out in another month, to which the landlord would reply. 'Yeah... I know.'

When you only are offering a 2 month tenancy, you can't be too put put by a tenant leaving early and if you wanted a guarantee of 2 months rent you would need to have them sign a 2 month lease and probably collect rent monthly to cover yourself. if the tenant has signed no contract stating they agree to stay a full 2 months and are paying rent weekly in cash, it will be looked upon as a week to week tenancy in a short term let. 28 days is not required.

OP you can google the Residential tenancies act yourself and download it. I suppose it would have been best to have asked the LL when you moved in 'I'm going to be looking for another place while I stay here, if I find one before 2 months is up, will it be all right if I move out early?'

But since you didn't, and plan to move anyway, might as well just ask him now. If he's sound it will be no problem. If not, how much was the deposit, a week's rent? If that's all it is and he tries to keep it, it's up to you what steps to take to get it back (won't be worth it probably).

If it only costs you one week of rent it will be a lot cheaper lesson than most renters have when they are foolish enough to rent without having the proper paperwork in place. Because if you do that you are usually dealing with a cowboy landlord who isn't paying tax and doesn't want to leave any paper trail which means the tenant might not be able to prove they lived there or paid their rent, and these types are often lax on getting repairs done, have no idea about tenant rights, landlord obligations etc., and to get Part 4 rights you need to be in the dwelling for 6 months at least and have proof of rent paid up to date.

Anyway at this point might as well just give him the week's notice and cross your fingers.

talkto

Clampdown wrote: »

Did you read the OP's 1st post? it says no contract was signed.

28 days notice is required under the Residential Tenancies act for tenants under 6 months, but that act doesn't apply to short term or holiday lets. Considering the tenant was told he could only stay for 2 months why would he have to give 28 days notice? He would in that case be saying at the end of month 1, I'm moving out in another month, to which the landlord would reply. 'Yeah... I know.'

When you only are offering a 2 month tenancy, you can't be too put put by a tenant leaving early and if you wanted a guarantee of 2 months rent you would need to have them sign a 2 month lease and probably collect rent monthly to cover yourself. if the tenant has signed no contract stating they agree to stay a full 2 months and are paying rent weekly in cash, it will be looked upon as a week to week tenancy in a short term let. 28 days is not required.

OP you can google the Residential tenancies act yourself and download it. I suppose it would have been best to have asked the LL when you moved in 'I'm going to be looking for another place while I stay here, if I find one before 2 months is up, will it be all right if I move out early?'

But since you didn't, and plan to move anyway, might as well just ask him now. If he's sound it will be no problem. If not, how much was the deposit, a week's rent? If that's all it is and he tries to keep it, it's up to you what steps to take to get it back (won't be worth it probably).

If it only costs you one week of rent it will be a lot cheaper lesson than most renters have when they are foolish enough to rent without having the proper paperwork in place. Because if you do that you are usually dealing with a cowboy landlord who isn't paying tax and doesn't want to leave any paper trail which means the tenant might not be able to prove they lived there or paid their rent, and these types are often lax on getting repairs done, have no idea about tenant rights, landlord obligations etc., and to get Part 4 rights you need to be in the dwelling for 6 months at least and have proof of rent paid up to date.

Anyway at this point might as well just give him the week's notice and cross your fingers.

Thanks for the response. The tenancy is indeed listed as a "short term let" on the rent book. I tried to search for rules regarding short term lets but couldn't find anything. Do you know if there are specific rules printed anywhere regarding short term lets?

4ensic15

Clampdown wrote: »

Did you read the OP's 1st post? it says no contract was signed.

Just because a contract wasn't signed doesn't mean there is no contract. A contract can be made in writing, verbally or by conduct or by a combination of any or all of those 3 methods.

Clampdown wrote: »

28 days notice is required under the Residential Tenancies act for tenants under 6 months, but that act doesn't apply to short term or holiday lets. Considering the tenant was told he could only stay for 2 months why would he have to give 28 days notice?

The Residential Tenancies Act does not apply to holiday lets but it applies to every other letting. there is no minimum letting period below which the Act does not apply.
just because he was told he could only stay for 2 months does not mean he has to move. He has not been given a valid notice of termination yet.

[/QUOTE]

Anyway the o/p is an ingrate.

talkto

4ensic15 wrote: »

Just because a contract wasn't signed doesn't mean there is no contract. A contract can be made in writing, verbally or by conduct or by a combination of any or all of those 3 methods.

None of these were done. You may go now.

athtrasna

Posters are reminded to report objectionable posts rather than retort on thread.

Mod

Grolschevik

Just as an aside, there's no 'report' button on my version of the phone app...

athtrasna

Grolschevik wrote: »

Just as an aside, there's no 'report' button on my version of the phone app...

It's the flag icon

talkto

If anyone else has any concrete info on this that they can back up with some legal print I'd appreciate it. What I really need more than opinions and second-hand info (which I do appreciate) is some legal print that expresses what the law is exactly in this situation, if such a thing exists. Thanks.

Grolschevik

athtrasna wrote:

It's the flag icon

Still not seeing it. Time to upgrade, perhaps.

athtrasna

talkto wrote: »

If anyone else has any concrete info on this that they can back up with some legal print I'd appreciate it. What I really need is some legal print that expresses what the law is in this situation, if such a thing exists.

If you want legal advice, talk to a solicitor. Legal advice is not permitted on boards

talkto

athtrasna wrote: »

If you want legal advice, talk to a solicitor. Legal advice is not permitted on boards

I don't want legal advice. I'm asking for the location of the terms and conditions regarding my situation.

athtrasna

talkto wrote: »

I don't want legal advice. I'm asking for the location of the terms and conditions regarding my situation.

You can't because it's not written anywhere, you don't have a contract, that's where it would be.

talkto

athtrasna wrote: »

You can't because it's not written anywhere, you don't have a contract, that's where it would be.

Thanks for your responses.

talkto

Some further information:

The property is not on the PTRB public register list.

Clampdown

4ensic15 wrote: »

Just because a contract wasn't signed doesn't mean there is no contract. A contract can be made in writing, verbally or by conduct or by a combination of any or all of those 3 methods.

The Residential Tenancies Act does not apply to holiday lets but it applies to every other letting. there is no minimum letting period below which the Act does not apply.
just because he was told he could only stay for 2 months does not mean he has to move. He has not been given a valid notice of termination yet.

Anyway the o/p is an ingrate.[/quote]

Yeah because I'm sure a valid notice of termination was going to be written out from a landlord who doesn't bring contracts and collects in cash. In all likelihood the tenancy is not registered as that costs 90.00 and wouldn't be worth it for a 2 month tenant.

There is no such thing as verbal contracts when it comes to renting. They can't be proven. By that logic OP could claim he was told verbally the place was available for a year, it couldn't be proven otherwise, could it?

If you are adamant that the tenant in this case has to abide by the Res tenancy act then so does the landlord, meaning he can be fined up to 4,000 for not registering the tenancy (and I would bet my last dime it was never registered for a 2 month letting). In my experience, landlords who collect weekly in cash and not signed a lease have never expected more than a week's notice

There is no reason for OP not to get the deposit back <mod snip>

ted1

talkto wrote: »

Some further information:

The property is not on the PTRB public register list.

The landlord (Daughter )who lives in a separate building probably thinks that you are a licencee and she can Clsim relief under the rent a room scheme, however as its not attached she would be wrong.

http://www.prtb.ie/media-research/publications/licensees-in-private-rented-accommodation

Graham

talkto wrote: »

I don't want legal advice. I'm asking for the location of the terms and conditions regarding my situation.

Short of a crystal ball, you're not likely to get a definitive answer.

You don't appear to be too clear yourself on the basis of your tenancy/license agreement so anything that follows is going to be pure guesswork unless we try to cover every possible type of agreement you may be occupying under.

Go and talk to your landlord.

Clampdown

talkto wrote: »

I have to say, athtrasna, that I find it bizarre that you deleted my and Clampdown's posts, where we quite civilly questioned a poster's intentions - meanwhile, you ignore a post in which said poster engages in name calling; and while not exactly vicious name calling, and not something that affected me, logically his post is surely more offensive than ours were.

I don't want to report his post, I just thought it was necessary to point out the oddness of that.

He actually got a red card for it, and the insult was likely left in the thread to show what it was for. These threads often devolve into wars betwen pro-landlord and pro-tenant camps so it is modded to prevent that.

Anyway the only thing to do now is ask the landlord for the deposit back. How much was it a week's rent?

He'll likely give it back. If not you can take steps to get him penalized and get it returned but that might take a while. It will make more sense for both of you for him to give it back really. Don't worry about it, just call him up and talk to him asap.

talkto

Graham wrote: »

Short of a crystal ball, you're not likely to get a definitive answer.

You don't appear to be too clear yourself on the basis of your tenancy/license agreement so anything that follows is going to be pure guesswork unless we try to cover every possible type of agreement you may be occupying under.

Go and talk to your landlord.

What is clear is that there was no contract or lease, neither verbal or written.

So my question is: what is the notice requirement to leave a property when there is an absence of a lease / written/verbal contract?

If there is no specified requirement, fair enough. I'm just asking in case anyone reads this thread and believes that they have a definitive answer.

In the meantime, I will be talking to my landlord tomorrow.

Grolschevik

Clampdown wrote:

He actually got a red card for it, and the insult was likely left in the thread to show what it was for. These threads often devolve into wars betwen pro-landlord and pro-tenant camps so it is modded to prevent that.

Another thing that doesn't display on the mobile app!

talkto

ted1 wrote: »

The landlord (Daughter )who lives in a separate building probably thinks that you are a licencee and she can Clsim relief under the rent a room scheme, however as its not attached she would be wrong.

http://www.prtb.ie/media-research/publications/licensees-in-private-rented-accommodation

What is meant exactly by "a licencee?"

Grolschevik

talkto wrote:

What is meant exactly by "a licencee?"

it refers to a form of accommodation rental agreement that doesn't come under the protections for tenancy agreements under the Residential Tenancy Acts, and the renting person has hardly any more concrete rights than an invited guest in the landlord's home.

Graham

talkto wrote: »

What is clear is that there was no contract or lease, neither verbal or written.

So nobody here is going to be able to do anything other than guess the basis under which your landlord thinks he's allowing you to occupy.

talkto wrote: »

What is meant exactly by "a licencee?"

Someone who has almost no statutory rights* when it comes to occupying a room/property.

* I know there may be some, none of which I can think would be relevant in the context of the OPs question.

talkto

Okay. Lets imagine I speak to the landlord and say:

"I've found somewhere new to live and I want to leave this property next week"

and she replies:

"If you leave next week I'm not giving you your deposit back, you have to stay longer."

...what would you do in that situation, given that there's no written contract?

Graham

talkto wrote: »

...what would you do in that situation, given that there's no written contract?

I'd start by protesting, and insisting my deposit should be returned.

If that didn't work, for the sake of a weeks rent I'd probably chalk it up to experience and learn a valuable lesson to clarify things in advance next time.

talkto

I think I found some relevant info on CitizensInformation.ie

Periodic Tenancy

A periodic tenancy agreement does not specify a fixed length of time. The period of the tenancy may be weekly or monthly, depending on how often the rent is due. Periodic tenancy agreements may or may not be in writing.

As a tenant, you may end the periodic tenancy at any time. You do not have to give a reason.

You must provide a valid notice of termination to your landlord. i.e. Tenancy less than 6 months ---> notice period = 4 weeks (28 days.)

If this property was registered with the PTRB, I might imagine that the above terms and conditions regarding periodic tenancies would apply, but since it's not registered with the PTRB, I am assuming that they don't apply.

I have to say that I am surprised that terms and conditions could be enforced even when a tenancy is not "in writing" as it says above. Difficult to prove the presence or absence of a verbal contract, so I would have thought that a written contract would be vital. Otherwise it's one party's word against the other's.

Graham

talkto wrote: »

I think I found some relevant info on CitizensInformation.ie




If this property was registered with the PTRB, I might imagine that the above terms and conditions regarding periodic tenancies would apply, but since it's not registered with the PTRB, I am assuming that they don't apply.

I have to say that I am surprised that terms and conditions could be enforced even when a tenancy is not "in writing" as it says above. Difficult to prove the presence or absence of a verbal contract, so I would have thought that a written contract would be vital. Otherwise it's one party's word against the other's.

Now all you have to do is ascertain if you're a licensee or a tenant.

athtrasna

talkto wrote: »

I think I found some relevant info on CitizensInformation.ie




If this property was registered with the PTRB, I might imagine that the above terms and conditions regarding periodic tenancies would apply, but since it's not registered with the PTRB, I am assuming that they don't apply.

I have to say that I am surprised that terms and conditions could be enforced even when a tenancy is not "in writing" as it says above. Difficult to prove the presence or absence of a verbal contract, so I would have thought that a written contract would be vital. Otherwise it's one party's word against the other's.

You don't know that it's not registered or that it has to be. Someone other than the owner can operate a rent a room scheme in which case it does not need to be registered with the RTB.

The RTB register is also notoriously out of date so just because you can't see it online doesn't mean that it isn't registered, if in fact is a periodic tenancy.

Talk to your landlord, nobody here can give you a definitive answer.

talkto

Graham wrote: »

Now all you have to do is ascertain if you're a licensee or a tenant.

As it was advertised as "Not owner occupied" would that be evidence enough that I'm a tenant?

athtrasna

talkto wrote: »

As it was advertised as "Not owner occupied" would that be evidence enough that I'm a tenant?

No, a head tenant can avail of the rent a room scheme, there is no requirement that only landlords can use it.

talkto

Exclusions from rent-a-room relief

You will not qualify for the relief if:

• You are renting the room to short-term guests

I am a short term guest and therefore this has nothing to do with the rent a room scheme.

athtrasna

talkto wrote: »

I am a short term guest and therefore this has nothing to do with the rent a room scheme.

Short term guest refers to air BNB type arrangements, not what you have described. A two month letting (as advertised) is not short term

talkto

athtrasna wrote: »

Short term guest refers to air BNB type arrangements, not what you have described. A two month letting (as advertised) is not short term

Oh right. Can you link me to where "short term" is defined?

_Kaiser_

So much speculation and arguments on what is a very short-term informal arrangement.

OP the only way you're going to find out is to talk to the guy managing this rental. Tell him you are planning to move out next week and ask what the story is with deposit return. Looking for legal opinion on it before you do even this much will only end badly and draw it out unnecessarily.

My bet is the guy will say "fair enough" and hand back the cash.. it's only a week's rent and it's not like he will have a problem replacing you in the current market.

talkto

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

So much speculation and arguments on what is a very short-term informal arrangement.

OP the only way you're going to find out is to talk to the guy managing this rental. Tell him you are planning to move out next week and ask what the story is with deposit return. Looking for legal opinion on it before you do even this much will only end badly and draw it out unnecessarily.

My bet is the guy will say "fair enough" and hand back the cash.. it's only a week's rent and it's not like he will have a problem replacing you in the current market.

Here's hoping!

I sent him a message this morning but I haven't heard back from him yet.

It's actually two weeks' rent not one week.

I hope he does give it back to me as I need it.