Wideband Satellite System

Johnboy1951

I am attempting to get some 'user' information about a wideband satellite set up, and have so far failed to find anything consumer related that might be available to the home/enthuasiast builder.
From what little I have read a wideband LNB (with two outputs H & V) should cover both Astra and Saorsat bands.
What I have failed to find is any consumer products which have multiple tuners capable of using a wbLNB (excluding Sky Q of course).
Is anyone aware of suitable commercially built STBs for such a set up?
Even better would be the availability of tuner cards for inclusion in a HTPC build or such, if they are available.
I expect my search terms are not good enough, because I have so far failed to find anything except the chip vendors products.

It might well be that a better and more versatile solution would be a SAT>IP LNB with up to 8 outputs.

My hope is to get sufficient information to allow some assessment of the alternative systems from the versatility viewpoint, while keeping an eye on cost of course.

Apogee

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I am attempting to get some 'user' information about a wideband satellite set up, and have so far failed to find anything consumer related that might be available to the home/enthuasiast builder.
From what little I have read a wideband LNB (with two outputs H & V) should cover both Astra and Saorsat bands.

Astra and Saorsat are in two very different frequency ranges, Ku and Ka. The recently introduced wbLNBs are designed to cover Ku only 10700 to 12750 MHz (or simultaneously 10700-11700 Lo & 11700-12750 Hi)

The existing Ka LNBs already cover the entire 'Saorsat band' 19700-20200 GHz. As they have two LNB outputs, you can cover the entire band and both polarisations simultaneously, but it's somewhat redundant given the small number of channels on Ka in Europe.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

What I have failed to find is any consumer products which have multiple tuners capable of using a wbLNB (excluding Sky Q of course).
Is anyone aware of suitable commercially built STBs for such a set up?
Even better would be the availability of tuner cards for inclusion in a HTPC build or such, if they are available.
I expect my search terms are not good enough, because I have so far failed to find anything except the chip vendors products.

It might well be that a better and more versatile solution would be a SAT>IP LNB with up to 8 outputs.

My hope is to get sufficient information to allow some assessment of the alternative systems from the versatility viewpoint, while keeping an eye on cost of course.

None that I'm aware of yet. The closest would be the Vu+ Solo 4K which has FBC tuners. Used in conjunction with Unicable LNBs, you get something which is a close approximation of a wbLNB setup.

Full Band Capture - Solo 4K
http://linux-tv.com/receiver/vu-solo-4k/

Gerry Wicklow

The VU+ 4K has the equivalent of 8 internal FBC tuners. Used with Unicable LNBs you can in theory watch/record loads of programs at once. HOWEVER if you want multi-sat operation, you only have 2 physical (F) connections. If one input is busy with Saorsat (via diseqc) you will half the tuners available on the other input. (hope that makes sense )

Johnboy1951

Thanks Apogee.
Glad it was not my failure to search that caused the lack of links

I obviously misunderstood something I read about the range of frequencies covered by some wbLNBs.

It seems (to me) the best available option is
http://www.sat-world.com/epages/Satworld.sf/seca98b19ad22?ObjectID=371675
..... tuners built into the dish and simple ethernet connection to router/switch for distribution within the house.

Gerry Wicklow wrote:

The VU+ 4K has the equivalent of 8 internal FBC tuners. Used with Unicable LNBs you can in theory watch/record loads of programs at once. HOWEVER if you want multi-sat operation, you only have 2 physical (F) connections. If one input is busy with Saorsat (via diseqc) you will half the tuners available on the other input. (hope that makes sense  )

Just seen your post so will check that out, thanks.

Johnboy1951

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

The VU+ 4K has the equivalent of 8 internal FBC tuners. Used with Unicable LNBs you can in theory watch/record loads of programs at once. HOWEVER if you want multi-sat operation, you only have 2 physical (F) connections. If one input is busy with Saorsat (via diseqc) you will half the tuners available on the other input. (hope that makes sense )

I don't know if I am reading this correctly or not ..... it seems that with two tuners, although full band, that the variety of channels available is limited to two bands only. See here http://linux-tv.com/receiver/vu-solo-4k/

FBC - Full Band Capture
The FBC technology adds more possibilities by capturing more transponders. So the 2 FBC tuners can pull in up to 8 transponders providing they are in the same frequency band/polarisation that is.

So if one tuner is processing a Low/H and the other a Low/V signal, there is no option to watch a channel on either of the High bands without extra tuners.

Gerry Wicklow

My understanding, rightly or wrongly is that it is all done in the Unicable LNB. I don't have such a set up so can't confirm or deny any of this. There are others here far better qualified to discuss these things.

The Cush

2 technologies at play here Unicable/SCR and FBC. Sky uses both technologies.

With its basic setup the SkyQ FBC lnb sends the full range of frequencies down each cable (10700-12750) but each cable will only carry one polarisation H or V to a receiver or splitter (when available), this way the signal can be sent to multiple tuners at once without interfering with each other, similar to a multiswitch or how your regular TV aerial works. The SkyQ silver boxes have 12 internal tuners.

In their dSCR (Unicable) multiswitches, they allocate 16 preset user bands (channels) via a single output which can feed 16 SCR tuners. Intended for use in apartment blocks where only a single cable may be feeding each apartment.

SkyQ receivers have both technologies built in and are separately selectable in the installers menu.

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

2 technologies at play here Unicable/SCR and FBC. Sky uses both technologies.

(Quote snipped due to failure to post when quoted fully)
In addition I have read that they have allocated specific tuners for specific functions which means those particular tuners are not available for 'normal' use by client devices.
Which brings us back to the question ..... are there devices/hardware available for someone to build their own comparable system (without the Sky limitations) from 'off the shelf' components? So far, to me, it seems not.
The best alternative I can find ..... and maybe a better option altogether ..... is to use a Sat>IP dish like I linked to above, which has the benefit of providing a similar output as the Sky Q system - IPTV on the LAN.
If you have any information about how one might build their own system for 8 individual outputs, in a similar to Sky Q, I would love to read it, thanks.

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

If you have any information about how one might build their own system for 8 individual outputs, in a similar to Sky Q, I would love to read it, thanks.

By using FBC and SCR technologies in their new receivers Sky have pretty much dealt a blow to SatIP for general consumer use, economies of scale etc.

Don't think I'd be able to give you any real advice on building your setup beyond standard Quattro LNB/multiswitch. The new dSCR multiswitches I linked to above can feed 16 SCR tuners in non-Sky mode in addition to legacy feeds.

Gerry Wicklow

It's possible to get multiswitches that use quad or qauttro LNBs and then feed as many standard boxes as needed depending on the number of outlets. And of course you can piggyback terrestrial to all points also.

EDIT: Something like this takes 8 sat feeds in. In practice you would only need 6 in for 28° and 9° and feeds out to 8 tuners

Apogee

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

It seems (to me) the best available option is
http://www.sat-world.com/epages/Satworld.sf/seca98b19ad22?ObjectID=371675
..... tuners built into the dish and simple ethernet connection to router/switch for distribution within the house.

Avoid flat panel antennas. Go for a SAT-IP LNBF instead:
http://www.inverto.tv/products/product.php?id=264

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I don't know if I am reading this correctly or not ..... it seems that with two tuners, although full band, that the variety of channels available is limited to two bands only. See here http://linux-tv.com/receiver/vu-solo-4k/


So if one tuner is processing a Low/H and the other a Low/V signal, there is no option to watch a channel on either of the High bands without extra tuners.

It's restricted to 2 bands if you connect it to a standard Universal LNBF. If you use a Unicable LNBF, then this restriction does not apply as the LNBF redistributes the channels onto the same band:



What, exactly, is your end goal? What are you trying to achieve?

Johnboy1951

Apogee, I started this thread to see if a similar scheme to Sky Q was possible using 'off the shelf' hardware, but it seems not. I am coming down quite firmly on the side of IPTV at the dish as the best solution available at the moment.
I am interested in hearing why this is not so, if others have different opinions - although it was not the original purpose of this thread.
Why your preference of the IPTV LNB as opposed to a 'flat dish'? Is there some technical reason one is better than the other? The Selfsat dish has a couple of legacy connections if required, in addition to the IP output which might be useful.

(continued next post)

Johnboy1951

(continued from last post)
The Unicable scheme is suited (I believe) to distributing signals to Sat tuners in various locations via co-ax cable. I have come to the conclusion that the best means of distributing TV in the building is via ethernet cable. This means that all required tuners can be in one location, on LNB or in HTPC with no underused tuners in little used rooms. IPTV can then be easily distributed via CAT5e/CAT6 cable, wifi (not great IMO), or powerline adapters. All computing devices would then have access to all content without hindrance, needing only suitable software to play and record the streams.

EDIT: Apologies for the two posts ..... I was unable to get it all to post in one ..... a problem I have been having for some time with Boards

Johnboy1951

Re-cap:
While searching reading and taking on board suggestions etc from this thread, I have found myself leaning away from what I first considered which was
a wbLNB with two outputs feeding a receiver with multiple tuners (say 8) and those tuners being accessed over the LAN from any LAN connected device, to tune into one or more tuners, to play and record any Sat channel, regardless of transponder or usage of other tuners ...
and leaning towards ...
IPTV LNB at the dish feeding everything over CAT6 cable to a LAN switch/router, maybe with an attached HDD or NAS for recordings and media playback, and each connected device accessing channels in similar manner to above.
This seems to be the simplest to implement, as well as having the benefit of complete versatility with no limitations (I can presently think of) around the use of tuners or recording limitations or other.

winston_1

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

IPTV can then be easily distributed via CAT5e/CAT6 cable, wifi (not great IMO), or powerline adapters.

Never use powerline adapters. They are bad technology and will cause interference to your neighbours. Mains wiring is not intended to carry data.

Apogee

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Why your preference of the IPTV LNB as opposed to a 'flat dish'?

Flat panel antennas perform poorly in general. You are better off with a standard dish, particularly in Ireland.