Entirely hypothetical Road Traffic Acts question

L1011

I work in an access-controlled business park - you need a tag or a good excuse to get a barrier lifted. Does this still count as a public place in terms of various offences under the road traffic act? I know that "I was in the pub carpark" doesn't work as its very much public; but a member of the public cannot get in here without consent.

Thought of this today when seeing a traffic corps car, likely passing through as there is a shortcut through the park which it would be unlikely the security guard would refuse.

I've no intention of going to the on-site bar and hooning around pissed, its just a thought :pac:

coylemj

It depends on who has access. If any member of the public can get in i.e. you don't have to work there or name someone you are visiting (which would count as an invitation) then it would be considered a public place under the RTA.

What sort of checks are done when someone pulls up at the barrier?

L1011

coylemj wrote: »

What sort of checks are done when someone pulls up at the barrier?

During the day, you need to give details of who you are visiting; but they do not have to have told the gates. At night, they'll phone them.

coylemj

L1011 wrote: »

During the day, you need to give details of who you are visiting; but they do not have to have told the gates. At night, they'll phone them.

That would count as access by invitation so it would not be considered a public place. What you describe is similar to how an awful lot of places with a security hut and a barrier operate, it's rare enough that they phone the person you're visiting though in some places the security people have to be given the registration number in advance.

The definition of a public place includes the word in relation to access: 'whether as of right or by permission' but it also includes the term 'members of the public' which implies that anyone who takes a fancy can enter which would not be the case with your place.

L1011

Luckily I usually park in an off-site carpark that's a short walk but a public road drive in, lest I ever decide to want to do a speedbump ridden, slow, drunken drive then!

Cookie_Monster

Can you still walk in without having to go through the same security process? Would this change anything in relation tot he RTA if that were the case?

L1011

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Can you still walk in without having to go through the same security process?

I've never tried so I'm not sure. Only ever gone in via vehicle.

edit: the offsite carpark I use has a direct pedestrian entry and your reg needs to be given by your employer to get in, so you definitely can't walk in there.

Pro Hoc Vice

L1011 wrote: »

I work in an access-controlled business park - you need a tag or a good excuse to get a barrier lifted. Does this still count as a public place in terms of various offences under the road traffic act? I know that "I was in the pub carpark" doesn't work as its very much public; but a member of the public cannot get in here without consent.

Thought of this today when seeing a traffic corps car, likely passing through as there is a shortcut through the park which it would be unlikely the security guard would refuse.

I've no intention of going to the on-site bar and hooning around pissed, its just a thought :pac:

A look at the definition might help

'public place’ means—

(a) any public road, and

(b) any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;”;"

Whether as of right "OR BY PERMISSION".

Simple question with an equally simple answer.

coylemj

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

A look at the definition might help

'public place’ means—

(a) any public road, and

(b) any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;”;"

Whether as of right "OR BY PERMISSION".

Simple question with an equally simple answer.

Not as simple as you portray it.

The term 'the public' effectively means that at that particular time, the place is open to anybody with a car without qualification. For example it could include the car park of a GAA or rugby club on the day of a match for which there is free or paid parking so anybody can drive in and they will be admitted. It also applies to shopping centre car parks while they are open to people with vehicles.

If there is a restriction based on a requirement such as that you can only enter if you have an invitation to do so (the OP's scenario) then there is no unfettered access to the general public so it would not be considered a public place under the RTA.

The clause 'by permission' covers places like the car parks of hotels and hospitals which can be open to the public for certain hours of the day but which (as private property) can have restricted or no access at other times of the day. I mention that because a guy was convicted once for drink driving having been caught in a hotel car park. It went to the High Court as a case stated to adjudicate on the defendant's claim which was that because the car park was not open 24 x 7, it could not be considered a public place. The High Court held that it was a public place within the meaning of the RTA (i.e. open to the public with vehicles) at the time the defendant was pulled over by the cops so the conviction was upheld.

My last point being that 'by permission' (potentially the world and his wife) and 'by invitation' (specific invitees) are not the same thing.

Pro Hoc Vice

coylemj wrote: »

Not as simple as you portray it.

The term 'the public' effectively means that at that particular time, the place is open to anybody with a car without qualification. For example it could include the car park of a GAA or rugby club on the day of a match for which there is free or paid parking so anybody can drive in and they will be admitted. It also applies to shopping centre car parks while they are open to people with vehicles.

If there is a restriction based on a requirement such as that you can only enter if you have an invitation to do so (the OP's scenario) then there is no unfettered access to the general public so it would not be considered a public place under the RTA.

The clause 'by permission' covers places like the car parks of hotels and hospitals which can be open to the public for certain hours of the day but which (as private property) can have restricted or no access at other times of the day. I mention that because a guy was convicted once for drink driving having been caught in a hotel car park. It went to the High Court as a case stated to adjudicate on the defendant's claim which was that because the car park was not open 24 x 7, it could not be considered a public place. The High Court held that it was a public place within the meaning of the RTA (i.e. open to the public with vehicles) at the time the defendant was pulled over by the cops so the conviction was upheld.

My last point being that 'by permission' (potentially the world and his wife) and 'by invitation' (specific invitees) are not the same thing.

The definition posted was an amendment made to the 1961 definition in 1994. The reason for the amendment was a case at that time recently decided where a person driving on Grafton street was held not to be in a public place.

The current definition is very broad and would make a car park in a hotel even if closed at the time a public place. (In the above case Grafton street was at the time closed to traffic)

The issue is does the public have access with vehicles with or with out permission or with or with out charge even if closed at the time. In my opinion the situation in the OP would be a public place for the RTA as any member of the public can get access. If access was restricted to say the owner of the property then not public place, but as long as any member of the public can pull up and buzz and be allowed access the it public place.

GM228

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

In my opinion the situation in the OP would be a public place for the RTA as any member of the public can get access. If access was restricted to say the owner of the property then not public place, but as long as any member of the public can pull up and buzz and be allowed access the it public place.

The same could** be said if anyone buzzed and I let them in through gates into my driveway or if I have no gates and any member of the public can get access.

**But as far as I know the curtilage of a house is specifically defined as not a public place (can't remember if via statute or case law), but then can it be argued that a private driveway with an implied invitation be a public place, in other words can an implied invitation be construed as an implied right or can an implied right even apply in such circumstances for private property other than car parks etc where it's obvious that you don't need an invitation implied or otherwise?

Pro Hoc Vice

GM228 wrote: »

The same could** be said if anyone buzzed and I let them in through gates into my driveway or if I have no gates and any member of the public can get access.

**But as far as I know the curtilage of a house is specifically defined as not a public place (can't remember if via statute or case law), but then can it be argued that a private driveway with an implied invitation be a public place, in other words can an implied invitation be construed as an implied right or can an implied right even apply in such circumstances for private property other than car parks etc where it's obvious that you don't need an invitation implied or otherwise?

It would be a very fact specific situation but in most cases private road would not fall under the definition in the Act. As stated earlier the definition is very broad and could lead to situations where private road is classed for purpose of RTA as public but in your example I would think your driveway is not a public place. It would come under the definition of curtilage.

hullaballoo

I was in a case where a car impound area, which by its nature is totally off limits to the public was nonetheless found to be a public place.

I won't say what I made of that finding but it is fair to say a very broad interpretation is given.

coylemj

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

The definition posted was an amendment made to the 1961 definition in 1994. The reason for the amendment was a case at that time recently decided where a person driving on Grafton street was held not to be in a public place.

That was achieved by the addition of 'any public road' to the definition, the effect of which was that any road under the control of the local authority was to be considered a public place 24x7 i.e. whether it was open to traffic at the time or not. The rest of the definition is the same as in the original act ...

any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0007/sec0049.html#sec49

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

The current definition is very broad and would make a car park in a hotel even if closed at the time a public place. (In the above case Grafton street was at the time closed to traffic)

No it would not. The 1994 change in the definition of a public place had no effect on the situation regarding private property. 'Public road' without qualification was added, that's why Grafton St. is now always considered a public place but the rules applying to private property did not change at all so while a hotel car park is closed, it is not a public place.

Given that the OP's car park is private property, that change in 1994 has no effect on the situation under discussion.

coylemj

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

The issue is does the public have access with vehicles with or with out permission or with or with out charge even if closed at the time. In my opinion the situation in the OP would be a public place for the RTA as any member of the public can get access. If access was restricted to say the owner of the property then not public place, but as long as any member of the public can pull up and buzz and be allowed access the it public place.

Any member of the public can drive up to the barrier of the OP's car park and give false information about who they claim to be visiting but surely if the barrier is raised and they drive in, they are trespassing?

Wouldn't that be the same as someone gaining access to your house by falsely claiming to be a meter reader? The legal principle being that if you gain access to private property under false pretences, you are a trespasser.

The only people who can legitimately enter the car park are those who are there by prior invitation, not the general public. The legal situation with the OP's car park is identical to what would apply if I had a driveway big enough for six cars and I invited six friends to come over for a BBQ and park in my driveway. My driveway is no more a public place under those circumstances than the OP's car park so I say his car park is not a public place under the RTA.