Qualified Secondary Teachers

joeharte123

Hi all,

Just out of interest, who here are qualified teachers/know of qualified teachers - who went to college, got their degree, did their Hdip/PGDE/PGCE/PME, didn't secure a job and ended up working in a different sector out of frustration, lack of money or any reason for that matter?

Every year, it seems that there are well over a 1,000 secondary teachers being pumped out of third level institutions in Ireland (including Hibernia).

Simply, there aren't enough teaching posts out there.

Personally speaking, it is an issue which needs to be addressed to all universities in the country and abroad (namely U.K), and the Teaching Council.

What are your thoughts on this?

evolving_doors

Centralised govt. controlled system (like Garda Training)

Versus

Free market + Colleges providing a service based on demand = making nice tidy sums. (But then again people are willing to pay!!!)

For me, once you know what the state of play is then yer free to study whatever course you can get into.

Glut of supply though! Does it cause a race to the bottom with splitting of full jobs into hours? I think maybe...

but then again the '2 subject' requirement has created a tangled timetable. Could that be met with a limited no. of teacher allocations? Timetables have to respond to changing subject numbers too on a yearly basis. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Judge Trudy

I think this should have been addressed 5 years ago, pumping out hundreds upon hundreds of graduates wasn't the answer but then the government are treating it as their cash cow so do you think they're going to stop any time soon. I'm basically referring to certain colleges here. I'm in Donegal and there are more than 60 teachers waiting on the supplementary panel for permanent jobs. This number increases every year as there are so few permanent jobs and so many teachers. I know a girl who was qualified 10 years before she got a permanent job and she feels privileged that she did now. I know teachers who graduated in the last 3 years who thought they were going to walk into jobs and the reality is the opposite. I feel like this situation was cleverly created by the government as they don't want teachers retiring on big pensions nor to have any rights as regards summer pay, maternity leave, sick pay etc. Instead they want teachers going from contract to contract (if they're lucky) with gaps of service etc.

I myself gave up a permanent job to move home to Donegal but the situation is so dire that I'm thinking for applying for SNA posts when my maternity leave is up so that I can hopefully get a mortgage one day soon and move on with my life!

The situation won't be improving any time soon unless the government just stop qualifying teachers for 5 years! They have such a surplus but like I said this don't happen as it's all about the €€€.

joeharte123

It definitely seems to be the case that many of those who qualify simply end up not working as a secondary school teacher. Some end up hovering on 10-12 hour contracts for 7-8 years. The rest are lucky to be on 18 hour contracts and get CID within their first 3 years.

For those of who have decided that they cannot wait around that long and need to get the ball rolling in regards to getting a mortgage etc. what do you end up doing? Potentially use your qualification for another job? Go back to do a postgrad? Enter a company that offers internal training?

2011abc

Penny dropping moment ...this is yet another reason why Irish schools have taken to bundling full time positions into 2 or even 3 smaller jobs ...it helps 'disguise' the massive oversupply of teachers from colleges - along with the obvious increase in control over 'desperate' young staff eager for a few more hours .

joeharte123

2011abc wrote: »

Penny dropping moment ...this is yet another reason why Irish schools have taken to bundling full time positions into 2 or even 3 smaller jobs ...it helps 'disguise' the massive oversupply of teachers from colleges - along with the obvious increase in control over 'desperate' young staff eager for a few more hours .

From what I've witnessed, read and heard - job sharing seems to be a requirement for any newly qualified teacher who has come out of college in the past 8 years with their teaching degree/cert. Some only timetabled to 4 hours/week of their own! The average seems to be around 6-9 hours/week form my experience.

It can be a method to disguise the alarming oversupply of qualified teachers. However, how long should a young person wait before they can start to earn a steady, decent income so they can get the ball rolling in relation to a house, car, family planning etc.?

It's important to note that any NQT that has managed to obtain any hours in Ireland is considered lucky. This isn't normal for any profession - never mind a profession that requires a minimum of 5 years in university and a further one year long induction.

A previous poster on this board made an interesting point. In order to address the situation of the oversupply of qualified teachers seeking hours, the universities colleges and third level institutions (including Hibernia) need to freeze their teacher training programs forabout 5 years. Unfortunately, this is an unrealistic solution to a real problem.

Therefore, those unable to obtain hours have limited options, namely:

-Stick around for a few years hoping something will pop up.
-Leave the teaching profession and work in another job, one that could well easily pay more.
-Go back to university/college to enroll in a year long Hdip in another sector with higher employment opportunities and pay conditions (I.T, finance etc.).
- Go to the U.K where you will be snapped up straight away.


I feel that this is something that is happening nationwide and it is not being discussed enough. People need to be aware of what they're getting into before deciding to spend the guts of 12,000 euro for a piece of paper you may never use in this country.

spurious

I wish they would tell them this in the training colleges/courses.

joeharte123

spurious wrote: »

I wish they would tell them this in the training colleges/courses.

I guess I can see why the lecturers don't, though. It's in their best interest that students' heads are kept in the sand for the duration of the 2 years. It's not fair it is allowed to happen.

Other practitioners qualify from undergraduate and postgraduate courses which have been regulated to cater for the demand of positions for when they initially enter the workforce. A good example would be the pharmaceutical industry.

xtralong

spurious wrote: »

I wish they would tell them this in the training colleges/courses.

Most students probably overestimate their chances of getting a job. Everyone thinks they are going to be the one who gets the job, I know I did. Total fantasy!

joeharte123

xtralong wrote: »

Most students probably overestimate their chances of getting a job. Everyone thinks they are going to be the one who gets the job, I know I did. Total fantasy!

I take it your not working as a teacher today?

r93kaey5p2izun

I would suggest that the TC should use some of their vast accumulated funds to produce decent statistics on teacher employment in the interests of promoting the profession. They should publish the numbers qualifying from each college with each subject. They should also periodically produce stats on number of WTEs employed in each sector and then the actual number of teachers employed also.

I think more needs to be done to publicise the reality of unemployment and underemployment in second level teaching. And to highlight the long term impact of long periods of unemployment, sporadic employment, part time employment and temporary employment - how it will impact eligibility for a mortgage, how it will impact pension contributions and in particular how it will impact final pension on the new pension scheme.

joeharte123

Drew Wooden Whiskey wrote: »

I would suggest that the TC should use some of their vast accumulated funds to produce decent statistics on teacher employment in the interests of promoting the profession. They should publish the numbers qualifying from each college with each subject. They should also periodically produce stats on number of WTEs employed in each sector and then the actual number of teachers employed also.

I think more needs to be done to publicise the reality of unemployment and underemployment in second level teaching. And to highlight the long term impact of long periods of unemployment, sporadic employment, part time employment and temporary employment - how it will impact eligibility for a mortgage, how it will impact pension contributions and in particular how it will impact final pension on the new pension scheme.

I would think this would be a good idea. Awareness to a problem must be made before you can address it.

And like what xtralong said about those students rolling the dice, thinking they'll be the one to get hours ahead of their peers - you can't say they weren't warned.

xtralong

joeharte123 wrote: »

I take it your not working as a teacher today?

Working a resource person in Youthreach where my 'teaching' is not recognised as teaching. Despite years of experience my chances of getting into a school are virtually nil. Another thing I wish I'd known.

Totally agree that the TC should conduct more research and publish comprehensive employment statistics to create awareness so people can make more informed decisions. In Australia the Dept. of Employment publish these for each state: https://docs.employment.gov.au/node/31563

gaiscioch

Drew Wooden Whiskey wrote: »

I would suggest that the TC should use some of their vast accumulated funds to produce decent statistics on teacher employment in the interests of promoting the profession. They should publish the numbers qualifying from each college with each subject. They should also periodically produce stats on number of WTEs employed in each sector and then the actual number of teachers employed also.

I think more needs to be done to publicise the reality of unemployment and underemployment in second level teaching. And to highlight the long term impact of long periods of unemployment, sporadic employment, part time employment and temporary employment - how it will impact eligibility for a mortgage, how it will impact pension contributions and in particular how it will impact final pension on the new pension scheme.

xtralong wrote: »

In Australia the Dept. of Employment publish these for each state: https://docs.employment.gov.au/node/31563

Now, that is the sort of evaluation of the profession by the Teaching Council that we could well do with having in Ireland. Good find in Australia, by the way.

I've never seen figures for the number of people who qualify as secondary teachers each year, their subjects, how many teachers are teaching subjects they are not qualified to teach (and how long they have been so doing), how many foreign-trained teachers in employment, how many of the qualified Irish teachers are in employment abroad and how many have left teaching and what they are doing now, how many teachers retire early, and the reasons for so doing, stress. And so much else.

There were slightly under 240 students at the start of my dip year. If there are even 1000 newly qualified secondary teachers coming out of Irish universities each year, it wouldn't be too hard to find what most of them are doing. Research on how, say, 10,000 qualified teachers have fared over the past 10 years would shed enormous light on our profession and the things needed to be done to improve the quality of life for all of us (and make no mistake: how the most marginal teachers are treated does have consequences for those of us on permanent/CID contracts under the pre-2011 salary scale).

When things quieten down in terms of industrial disputes, it would be money very, very well spent if the ASTI and the government organised for the Teaching Council or some such organisation to recruit researchers and statisticians to carry out this research. From collating all that basic information we could research the centralised employment system for teachers that they have in France and Spain as maybe a solution to the number of teachers who are part-time. We really do need to understand the profession before deciding on solutions, though. I'd even take a two-year career break to be part of the team that would carry the research out.

delta_bravo

I'm still on the register but pretty much given up. Graduated five years ago. Spent two years fully focused on getting a job in teaching. Think I earned about 4k a year subbing, then the countless failed applications and interviews for nonexistent jobs I packed it in to work elsewhere. I don't know how people are able to work on five hours contracts and every summer go job hunting again. I think it needs to go the way of the gards for a while. Demand based placements on the University training courses. Turning them into two year masters for secondary has only increased the income of universities.

joeharte123

Would you agree the profession is becoming increasingly based on part time work? - As in, it is now seen as a part-time job where young teachers are only working on 10 hour contracts, claiming dole during the summer?

In comparison to other industries, teaching really isn't appealing to any young person.

r93kaey5p2izun

Yes I think casualisation and part time work is a serious problem in teaching. The Ward Report showed that 27% of second level teachers were working part time - within the ETB sector it was 40%. I would like to see these statistics compiled again to see any changes in the interim but I don't see any evidence of the Ward circular having improved the problem of part time work, just increased part time CIDs.

I also believe that casualisation is bad for the profession and very bad for students. I have no idea why school managers have decided it is a good thing. I think ETBI, JMB and NAPD should be asked directly why they have increasingly pursued this type of employment in their schools and asked about their long term vision and evidence of why they believe it is in the best interests of schools and students in the long term.

joeharte123

Drew Wooden Whiskey wrote: »

Yes I think casualisation and part time work is a serious problem in teaching. The Ward Report showed that 27% of second level teachers were working part time - within the ETB sector it was 40%. I would like to see these statistics compiled again to see any changes in the interim but I don't see any evidence of the Ward circular having improved the problem of part time work, just increased part time CIDs.

I also believe that casualisation is bad for the profession and very bad for students. I have no idea why school managers have decided it is a good thing. I think ETBI, JMB and NAPD should be asked directly why they have increasingly pursued this type of employment in their schools and asked about their long term vision and evidence of why they believe it is in the best interests of schools and students in the long term.

Within the ETB sector 40% are working part-time. I cannot trick myself to think that this will not have a direct impact on the students.

A teacher working part-time would need to work in another job for financial purposes, right? So what we have now are a group of young teachers, working late evenings, nights and weekends in bars just to add a couple of quid to their budget.

Surely the students will feel the impact of a teacher who is physically drained from working a second job weekends/evenings? - half arsed attempt on drawing up a lesson, copies never collected, corrections not done etc.

r93kaey5p2izun

There are valid reasons why the ETB should have more part time teachers on the books because they run all sorts of different education centres and courses other than just second level schools. But I don't think there's any justification for such a large discrepancy (only 19% of teachers in the voluntary and community/comprehensive sector were part time) other than a deliberate policy of splitting jobs - and that's what I see happening routinely in my own ETB. Also the statistics refer to "Teachers Employed in Second Level Schools" so I'm not sure Youth Reach or Further Ed are necessarily even included.

lardbutt

My experience of it all is 2 years teaching at a secondary school through my network and 4 years teaching abroad. I got my PGDE in 2008! I've only managed to teach for six solid years since then. Frustrating to say the least. Best bet is to emigrate in my opinion if it's really something that you want to do for a profession. Plenty of jobs abroad for qualified teachers.

Can't see myself doing anything else to be honest. Not one for sales.

GSOIRL

joeharte123 wrote: »

Within the ETB sector 40% are working part-time. I cannot trick myself to think that this will not have a direct impact on the students.

A teacher working part-time would need to work in another job for financial purposes, right? So what we have now are a group of young teachers, working late evenings, nights and weekends in bars just to add a couple of quid to their budget.

Surely the students will feel the impact of a teacher who is physically drained from working a second job weekends/evenings? - half arsed attempt on drawing up a lesson, copies never collected, corrections not done etc.

Unfortunately with the new pay scales and no allowances it is not just part time teachers that need to take on a 2nd job to survive. If you look at the average rent in Dublin for instance and then the take home pay for a full time teacher who is on the Post 2012 pay scale you will see that if they want to eat they will need a 2nd job. It is terrible how the teaching profession has been destroyed by the government without any resistance from the Trade Unions, whose leadership seem happy to receive their huge salaries (€150,000 - €175,000) and their government appointments to boards when they retire.

Rant Over

delta_bravo

lardbutt wrote: »

Can't see myself doing anything else to be honest.

Not directing this at you but I think this view is why there are so many people lingering on casual and part time contracts. If most jobs in your industry you got offered were unsecured lesser paid roles you would be leaving that industry. Many regard teaching as a vocation and while that is a good thing it leads to people being taken advantage of I feel. A teacher has a massive amount of transferable skills regardless of subjects

xtralong

delta_bravo wrote: »

A teacher has a massive amount of transferable skills regardless of subjects

I'd certainly like to think that this is true. Can you think of any meaningful and relatively well paid jobs that teachers can get into fairly easily without retraining?

mirrorwall14

I believe that parents should really be encouraged to get on board with a campaign. Part time teachers mean that there is a huge turnover of teachers trying to get better contracts. This has a big impact, particularly at JC on students. I don't believe the ward report has helped.

What's worrying is I've been saying this for five years now since I arrived in a school and took over a class of third years where I was their 5th, yes their 5th teacher in three years in that subject. That is absolutely insane. There were gaps in their coursework, 5 different teaching methods used, a lot of confusion in the weaker students and none of those were maternity!

We need the parents backing us that this is bad for the students and with them on board you might even get a slightly more balanced media coverage and approach to it

r93kaey5p2izun

Absolutely mirrorwall. At the moment parents seem oblivious or don't seem to care. Many complain if their own child is dealing with a revolving door of teachers but at the very same time are happy to dismiss teacher concerns on this issue as mere whinging and cite permanent jobs for life and fantastic holidays or say it's a problem in all industries. A lot don't know what's going on and a lot don't want to know.

Apart from lack of continuity for students I think casualisation also leads to a loss of professional expertise and knowledge as teachers on part time or casual hours rarely get the opportunity to take a class all the way through the course, many don't get to teach HL and some don't get LC. This loss in the system is growing all the time.

A campaign led by parents concerned about the impact of casualisation would be powerful but I can't see it happening.

joeharte123

GSOIRL wrote: »

Unfortunately with the new pay scales and no allowances it is not just part time teachers that need to take on a 2nd job to survive. If you look at the average rent in Dublin for instance and then the take home pay for a full time teacher who is on the Post 2012 pay scale you will see that if they want to eat they will need a 2nd job. It is terrible how the teaching profession has been destroyed by the government without any resistance from the Trade Unions, whose leadership seem happy to receive their huge salaries (€150,000 - €175,000) and their government appointments to boards when they retire.

Rant Over

Very relevant post, GSOIRL.

The vast majority of business, finance and I.T graduates start off earning what a full time teacher would earn after about 6 years teaching - if your lucky to get 22 hours within your first 6 years!

How appealing does this seem to a young person?

Corkgirl18

I graduated last year and I don't know anybody at my stage on anywhere near full hours fixed term apart from myself (16 hrs).

In the ETB I'm in I'm pretty sure there is nobody under 35 on full hours either.
In college we were so naive as we were told by our head lecturer that nobody that he has taught over the past 10 years is unemployed. We presumed he meant they had full time teaching jobs. He certainly tried to make it sound like it.

joeharte123

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

I graduated last year and I don't know anybody at my stage on anywhere near full hours fixed term apart from myself (16 hrs).

In the ETB I'm in I'm pretty sure there is nobody under 35 on full hours either.
In college we were so naive as we were told by our head lecturer that nobody that he has taught over the past 10 years is unemployed. We presumed he meant they had full time teaching jobs. He certainly tried to make it sound like it.

16 hours is really good going for any teacher under 35 never mind someone straight out of college!

There are many NQTs who graduated in the past 8 years who still haven't picked up any hours and have changed career path. And it is becoming increasingly common.

Corkgirl18

joeharte123 wrote: »

16 hours is really good going for any teacher under 35 never mind someone straight out of college!

There are many NQTs who graduated in the past 8 years who still haven't picked up any hours and have changed career path. And it is becoming increasingly common.

They're not in the subjects I'm qualified to teach but I'm very lucky. Unfortunately most of my colleagues weren't as lucky.

joeharte123

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

They're not in the subjects I'm qualified to teach but I'm very lucky. Unfortunately most of my colleagues weren't as lucky.

What subjects are they Corkgirl18? And what subjects are you registered to teach?

Corkgirl18

joeharte123 wrote: »

What subjects are they Corkgirl18? And what subjects are you registered to teach?

Qualified in Science and a Leaving Cert Science subject.
Teaching Maths and a different LC Science subject.

joeharte123

Has anyone come across stories like this on the 'Voice For Teachers' Facebook page?

Some of them paint a very clear picture of the modern profession - working two jobs, mortgage applications rejected, sleepless nights etc.



There is one piece of advice that I believe the thousands of students starting their teacher training this year, and of course, the thousands graduating this year deserve to have - don't get your hopes up. There are simply far too many people in the teaching industry looking for work.

rainbowtrout

joeharte123 wrote: »

Has anyone come across stories like this on the 'Voice For Teachers' Facebook page?

Some of them paint a very clear picture of the modern profession - working two jobs, mortgage applications rejected, sleepless nights etc.



There is one piece of advice that I believe the thousands of students starting their teacher training this year, and of course, the thousands graduating this year deserve to have - don't get your hopes up. There are simply far too many people in the teaching industry looking for work.

It was said earlier on in this thread by a poster, they heard the stories but believed they would be the lucky one to land a job. A lot of people think like that.

I was studying physics in Maynooth part time last year. My lab partner was in the Science Education degree doing Physics and Maths (and has probably just finished their degree at this stage). I asked her out of curiosity how she felt about her hopes of getting a teaching job when she graduated. Her response was 'It'll be fine, there won't be a problem getting a job' I was pretty gobsmacked and outlined my reasons why, which have all been listed on this thread. Her response was 'My lecturer (pedagogy) said there are only 7 qualified physics teachers in the country, so it shouldn't be a problem'. Again I was gobsmacked. I said that was simply not true, that I was able to name 7 qualified, permanent physics teachers off the top of my head, but she simply wouldn't believe it. She took what was said by the lecturer as gospel.

I did Science Ed myself in UL, and typically in a class of 30 about 10 would choose the physics option. I put this to her based on 15 years of graduating classes since I had finished college that there might be more than 7 qualified physics teachers in the country, not even considering maynooth graduates. She wasn't having it. The mind boggles.

joeharte123

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It was said earlier on in this thread by a poster, they heard the stories but believed they would be the lucky one to land a job. A lot of people think like that.

I was studying physics in Maynooth part time last year. My lab partner was in the Science Education degree doing Physics and Maths (and has probably just finished their degree at this stage). I asked her out of curiosity how she felt about her hopes of getting a teaching job when she graduated. Her response was 'It'll be fine, there won't be a problem getting a job' I was pretty gobsmacked and outlined my reasons why, which have all been listed on this thread. Her response was 'My lecturer (pedagogy) said there are only 7 qualified physics teachers in the country, so it shouldn't be a problem'. Again I was gobsmacked. I said that was simply not true, that I was able to name 7 qualified, permanent physics teachers off the top of my head, but she simply wouldn't believe it. She took what was said by the lecturer as gospel.

I did Science Ed myself in UL, and typically in a class of 30 about 10 would choose the physics option. I put this to her based on 15 years of graduating classes since I had finished college that there might be more than 7 qualified physics teachers in the country, not even considering maynooth graduates. She wasn't having it. The mind boggles.

Nearly every school in the country provides physics as LC option which is something I hope this particular student understands. Engineering graduates can teach physics provided core modules are completed - and how many engineering courses are there!

Students like this end up getting qualified, apply in Ireland, get nothing and travel abroad where they're snapped up.

However, I don't blame any young person for dropping the pursuit of a teaching career in Ireland when they can't even secure substitution hours in a school. Life is too short to be waiting around until you 34, haven't never secured full time employment since you've graduated 10 years prior.

It makes complete sense that a young person wants to move on with their life, get a job, a mortgage, family etc. - it shouldn't be the case that they're in the dole queue every 6 weeks signing on, or renting cheap accommodation, staying in b&bs for a weeks subbing 4 hours drive away. Paying car insurance monthly as they don't have enough to pay the annual premium.

The status the profession once had is dead and gone. For many, teaching is a part time job with part time pay.

I don't mean this in anyway condescending to anyone working in the retail industry but most shop clerks and store operatives in Tesco, Aldi are earning more than the average teacher. This is a fact. Did they have to get a degree? A masters? Spend up to 12,000 for the new Hdip? No.

Friends in other sectors, getting on. Getting married, just got a house, baby on the way, promotion. I understand the grass is always greener and all that but these are things we should all be entitled to and not restricted because of the career we foolishly chose a couple of years back.

I understand that it can be very hard for a person who has put so much effort, time and money into becoming a teacher; to realise there is a massive oversupply, so big it would take about 9 years of no graduates coming out to help secure a position for each one.

But It's only a but of advice for those prospective about secondary teaching in Ireland.

1612

Very true a lot of students seem to put the head down when in college and then see what happens when qualified!!
Opportunities are few and far between in the teaching world and the reality of low hours low pay can be very demoralizing when experienced first hand after years of hard work!!

Notorious

xtralong wrote: »

I'd certainly like to think that this is true. Can you think of any meaningful and relatively well paid jobs that teachers can get into fairly easily without retraining?

Management. Might not be meaningful, but it can be very well paid.

I went from management to teaching. I decided to focus on job satisfaction and not pay. I luckily landed a full time teaching position straight out of the PDPPE, and I can't believe how bad the money is. Realistically a mortgage is going to be unattainable unless I've a partner.

In response to the over-supply of teaching graduates; I find it funny how the colleges (mine anyway), sell the profession using the increasing population stats. I couldn't keep count of how many times we were told that in two years time there'll be a shortage of secondary teachers. Ireland's population is increasing so rapidly that there won't be enough teachers for the amount of students. It's easy to look back and read through the BS, but as a young and eager teacher, relishing a new career or a career change, I lapped that up.

xtralong

The reality is that for many teaching is a part time job with no security and low wages. I would advise anyone thinking of entering the profession to do so with eyes wide open, unfortunately I don't think enough is done to publicise the realities of the profession. Quotas on certain subjects should be enforced by the colleges and a centralised recruitment process similar to Gardai should be in place for all state funded teachers. From reading through this post it seems a few teachers are indeed securing teaching positions with decent hours straight after qualifying. Presumably they are beating more experienced teachers at interview. From my experience the following increases the chances of success for NQTs:
Playing county football/hurling.
Knowing a principal/local politician very well.
Good subject combination eg. Maths and Irish

Notorious

xtralong wrote: »

From reading through this post it seems a few teachers are indeed securing teaching positions with decent hours straight after qualifying. Presumably they are beating more experienced teachers at interview. From my experience the following increases the chances of success for NQTs:
Playing county football/hurling.
Knowing a principal/local politician very well.
Good subject combination eg. Maths and Irish

I think luck has a huge part to play. We've a county hurler in our school, yet we don't have enough students to make up a team. We've "friends" of the principal who have only 8 hours CID. It's not all nepotism.

A lot of it is luck of the draw. Being lucky enough to land the interview and doing the best you can. I've friends who graduated who are now teaching in Quatar, or working in the miserable English teaching system. I know others who landed a job on their first interview. Go figure.