Wrong way in a bike lane - Who's at fault?

kerryked

Just want to get people's thoughts on this one.

Was travelling to work one morning last week. As you drive out of my estate on to the main road you have to cross over a cycle lane, where you would expect bikes to be coming from the right, same as cars.

However, this particular morning I was pulling out, I stopped at the main road, checked for traffic on my left and right, also checked for bikes coming from the right, it was clear so I proceeded to go.

Next thing I know, I can hear bike breaks being squeezed and theres a cyclist inches away from my bonnet - he was coming from my left hand side in the bike lane.

Just wondering, if there had been an accident who would be at fault here? The cyclist for cycling the wrong way (is there a wrong way?) on the bicycle lane or me - the driver - for not properly checking for approaching traffic?

salmocab

Is the bike lane part of the road or one up on the pathway with a kern between? To me its the cyclists fault as generally the bike lanes are with flow unless marked. I see this fairly regularly and really its moronic.

Captain Chaos

Technically the cyclist is at fault for not following the rules of the road but under the law it's the driver at fault for not checking every possibility as the cyclist are seen as the "weak" party. Same as if a pedestrian walks out infront of you, the driver is at fault as they should have been driving at a speed that they can stop for anything.

GrumpyMe

Whether it's 100% for you or 50/50 or 75/25 against you who cares - you don't need the grief and they'll come off (sic) worst.
The old advisory on RTE used say "Think once, think twice - think bike!".
Look for them and you will see them.

kerryked

salmocab wrote: »

Is the bike lane part of the road or one up on the pathway with a kern between?.

The cycle lane is part of the road.

Thanks for the opinions. Think the cyclist got as much of a fright as I did - not sure what he expected as he was cycling the wrong way. But fair enough if anything had have happened it would've been my fault. Guess it just goes to show you always gotta be careful even if you think you know an area really well.

ted1

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Technically the cyclist is at fault for not following the rules of the road but under the law it's the driver at fault for not checking every possibility as the cyclist are seen as the "weak" party. Same as if a pedestrian walks out infront of you, the driver is at fault as they should have been driving at a speed that they can stop for anything.

Only some bike lanes have s legal requirement to travel in a certain direction.

bmwguy

I would imagine you have to cycle on the left hand side of the road regardless of whether there is a cycle lane or not. So I would put more of blame on cyclist than driver to be honest. I would imagine many of us just look right for oncoming traffic when making a left turn. This comes from someone who drives and cycles. I couldn't possibly imagine myself cycling on wrong side of the road

ted1

bmwguy wrote: »

I would imagine you have to cycle on the left hand side of the road regardless of whether there is a cycle lane or not. So I would put more of blame on cyclist than driver to be honest. I would imagine many of us just look right for oncoming traffic when making a left turn. This comes from someone who drives and cycles. I couldn't possibly imagine myself cycling on wrong side of the road

Imaging what should happen and what the law states are two very different things

carltonleon

The cyclist must have been cycling with his head down. I am quite a keen cyclist as well as a driver and the number one rule that I use as a cyclist is to cycle defensively so if you were coming out slowly the cyclist should have had time to see you and stopped safely.

brianomc

ted1 wrote: »

Only some bike lanes have s legal requirement to travel in a certain direction.

If it's an on-road cycle lane, that's not specifically marked as contra-flow, surely you should be going with the traffic direction. I stand my ground when someone comes towards me on an on-road cycle lane. They can go up on the path or out into the oncoming traffic. They also get a "wrong way <expletive>".

galwaycyclist

Cycling on the wrong side of the road is one of the more dangerous things you can do on a bike - including doing it in a cycle track.

If you want to have two way cycling on cycle tracks running along a road then it needs very careful treatment at the junctions.

What is "legal" can depend on the road markings etc. There may be arrows indicating the correct direction. If not then I would presume that the direction of travel is the same as the adjacent traffic lane. (The law is a bit fuzzy on this point and cycle tracks/cycle lanes are not specifically treated as a separate lane in Irish law.

On the other hand Irish road authorities can sometimes be extremely careless in their use of road markings and may put the cycle logos pointing in either direction - some might reasonably take this as an indication that the cycle lane is bi-directional. However the painted cycle logos actually have no legal status.

Finally, although it defies common sense, you have people who go around expressing the view that cycle tracks are inherently safe and that cyclists should just use them regardless. Some cyclists might hear this and assume that this makes it ok to cycle on the wrong side of the road.

Ultimately the problem is confused and incompetent road design combined a police force that is unfit for purpose. In Galway, the Garda will routinely turn a blind eye to cyclists using cycle tracks on the wrong side of the road.

MarkR

I've seen something similar happen very often in Limerick near the University Hospital. Here actually.

https://goo.gl/maps/yEPTqC9G7Nn

I was turning right, so crossing lanes. Car in front of me was doing the same, no cars coming, he had the green, and as he's crossing a cyclist comes up crossing the road at full speed in the wrong direction. Nearly got creamed. This actually happened twice within 30 seconds. I would 100% blame the cyclists in that case. Course they'd be dead, so blame immaterial. It is an idiotic idea to cycle against the flow of traffic in a cycle land, especially at an intersection.

mrcheez

Most (all) bike lanes are bi-directional.

It's up to both parties to look ahead at such a junction. If you looked only one direction before moving off then you are liable.

GM228

mrcheez wrote: »

Most (all) bike lanes are bi-directional.

It's up to both parties to look ahead at such a junction. If you looked only one direction before moving off then you are liable.

Most cycle lanes are one way, they are only two-way if the cycle lane information plates shows them as such or they are seperated into two lanes.

brianomc

Even for the likes of the off-road cycle lanes, how often you do see signs indicating that they are cycle lanes or the pedestrian/cyclist priority from both sides? Pretty much never, they signs are facing you as you cycle in the general traffic direction.

mrcheez

GM228 wrote: »

Most cycle lanes are one way, they are only two-way if the cycle lane information plates shows them as such.

Actually I read the OPs post again and see that it's a cycle lane on the road itself, in which case yes it's one-way.

I was assuming it was a cycle path he was crossing.

So yes in that case the cyclist is liable.

mrcheez

Saying that though, you should always look both ways before pulling out... what if it was a pedestrian coming from the left would you have felt differently?

GM228

By law when you see the above sign you can only cycle in the direction of traffic, not the direction of the sign.

However if the cycle lane is broken into two seperate lanes either by unbroken or broken white lines then it's two-way.

Roadhawk

This is a pretty sticky one because although the cyclists would be in the wrong for cycling the wrong way, the driver would be held liable if there was any damage in a collision for entering a roadway without assuring a clear passage.

I believe these cyclists are called "salmon" (swimming up stream) and loads have been caught on camera

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=solmon+cyclist

mrcheez

Roadhawk wrote: »

This is a pretty sticky one because although the cyclists would be in the wrong for cycling the wrong way, the driver would be held liable if there was any damage in a collision for entering a roadway without assuring a clear passage.

I believe these cyclists are called "salmon" (swimming up stream) and loads have been caught on camera

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=solmon+cyclist

Kind of like the joggers that refuse to run on pathways and prefer to run against the traffic on the roads

Roadhawk

mrcheez wrote: »

Kind of like the joggers that refuse to run on pathways and prefer to run against the traffic on the roads

Exactly

kerryked

mrcheez wrote: »

Saying that though, you should always look both ways before pulling out... what if it was a pedestrian coming from the left would you have felt differently?

Guess if it was a pedestrian they wouldn't be coming at the same speed as a cyclist and they would be on the footpath so you would have time to react.

Suppose this serves as a warning to everywhere to always take an extra look and be vigilant, especially when it comes to cyclists, and even motorcyclists too I guess.

chicorytip

On certain two way cycle paths that I have used the directional arrows indicate one should cycle on the right hand side rather than the left which seems illogical given that we have always driven on the left. Is there a reason for this? I have heard that foreign contractors were hired working to a continental blueprint i.e. right hand drive.

mitresize5

I'm a keen cyclist, cycle to work most days and raced at A3 standard back in the day ...

... but I'm also a driver, like everyone else I expect ...

In my opinion any cyclist who cycles the wrong way on cycle lane is an idiot. There are enough hazards and risk cycling in Ireland with out being a dumbass and adding another very serious one to the list.

GM228

chicorytip wrote: »

On certain two way cycle paths that I have used the directional arrows indicate one should cycle on the right hand side rather than the left which seems illogical given that we have always driven on the left. Is there a reason for this? I have heard that foreign contractors were hired working to a continental blueprint i.e. right hand drive.

Two-way cycle lanes use the same principles as any other roadway here i.e cyclists must cycle on the left side of the left lane, not the right.

mrcheez

GM228 wrote: »

Two-way cycle lanes use the same principles as any other roadway here i.e cyclists must cycle on the left side of the left lane, not the right.

on a curious note, people generally prefer to walk on the RHS of pathways. Just something I've noticed as I always stick the left in car, or bike, or walking/jogging

monument

chicorytip wrote: »

On certain two way cycle paths that I have used the directional arrows indicate one should cycle on the right hand side rather than the left which seems illogical given that we have always driven on the left. Is there a reason for this? I have heard that foreign contractors were hired working to a continental blueprint i.e. right hand drive.

The NTA have recommended it.

Which is bonkers as it goes against already established norms here and international norms.

It seems to be a design which allows for giving the "against the flow" cyclists, as such, less priority at junctions, while reintroducing "with flow" cyclists onto the carriageway.

magicbastarder

i can't remember if it was here or the cycling forum i mentioned this on, but on mobhi road (north of the tolka), going downhill you cycle on the left hand side if the road (in the bus lane), but uphill, you cycle on the footpath on the right - inside of the bus lane. and the cycle lane just ends at the junction with home farm road, with no indication of where to go.

anyway, the reason i mention it is that if you drive on home farm road from drumcondra to mobhi road, you do need to check both to your right - for descending traffic, but weirdly, first to your left for cyclists going uphill as they are dumped onto the road first.

kerryked

magicbastarder wrote: »

i can't remember if it was here or the cycling forum i mentioned this on, but on mobhi road (north of the tolka), going downhill you cycle on the left hand side if the road (in the bus lane), but uphill, you cycle on the footpath on the right - inside of the bus lane. and the cycle lane just ends at the junction with home farm road, with no indication of where to go.

anyway, the reason i mention it is that if you drive on home farm road from drumcondra to mobhi road, you do need to check both to your right - for descending traffic, but weirdly, first to your left for cyclists going uphill as they are dumped onto the road first.

And to think there are people paid to come up with these road plans :rolleyes: :pac:

ted1

mrcheez wrote: »

on a curious note, people generally prefer to walk on the RHS of pathways. Just something I've noticed as I always stick the left in car, or bike, or walking/jogging

People should walk towards the oncoming traffic

kerryked

Happened again this morning in the same spot. Different cyclist i think, this guy slowed down a bit. I smiled and waved, resisting the urge to mow him down :pac:

galwaycyclist

kerryked wrote: »

Happened again this morning in the same spot. Different cyclist i think, this guy slowed down a bit. I smiled and waved, resisting the urge to mow him down :pac:

You need to report it to the Guards. Also you need to see it recorded in the station daybook and get the name of the officer. If the officer takes out a loose piece of paper and starts writing then assume that your report will get filed in the bin.

mrcheez

ted1 wrote: »

People should walk towards the oncoming traffic

Exactly, stick to the LHS of the pathway when walking.

Allows joggers to overtake you on RHS and you also walk against oncoming traffic when on the road-edge side of the path.

2RockMountain

kerryked wrote: »

Just want to get people's thoughts on this one.

Was travelling to work one morning last week. As you drive out of my estate on to the main road you have to cross over a cycle lane, where you would expect bikes to be coming from the right, same as cars.

However, this particular morning I was pulling out, I stopped at the main road, checked for traffic on my left and right, also checked for bikes coming from the right, it was clear so I proceeded to go.

Next thing I know, I can hear bike breaks being squeezed and theres a cyclist inches away from my bonnet - he was coming from my left hand side in the bike lane.

Just wondering, if there had been an accident who would be at fault here? The cyclist for cycling the wrong way (is there a wrong way?) on the bicycle lane or me - the driver - for not properly checking for approaching traffic?

Why was your bonnet blocking the cycle lane? You should have waiting back behind the stop line until you had a clear opportunity to exit the side road.

mrcheez

2RockMountain wrote: »

Why was your bonnet blocking the cycle lane? You should have waiting back behind the stop line until you had a clear opportunity to exit the side road.

I don't think the OP was stopped on the bike lane, they pulled up to it afaik, but didn't look both directions before pulling out over the bike lane.

2RockMountain

mrcheez wrote: »

I don't think the OP was stopped on the bike lane, they pulled up to it afaik, but didn't look both directions before pulling out over the bike lane.

Sounds to me like the bonnet was blocking the cycle lane.

"theres a cyclist inches away from my bonnet"

mrcheez

2RockMountain wrote: »

Sounds to me like the bonnet was blocking the cycle lane.

"theres a cyclist inches away from my bonnet"

I read that as "inches away from the bonnet after pulling to a stop".

Anyway both parties are at fault really here: driver should always look both ways before pulling out (to watch for anyone coming from the LHS like joggers or dogwalkers, etc)... and bike was going against the flow of traffic potentially being hazard to other cyclists.

kerryked

2RockMountain wrote: »

Why was your bonnet blocking the cycle lane? You should have waiting back behind the stop line until you had a clear opportunity to exit the side road.

I was stopped before the cycle lane My bonnet wasn't blocking the cycle lane. I checked both left and right for cars, obviously didn't check thoroughly enough for cyclists approaching from the left. I'd find it hard to believe anyone would check for cyclists coming from the left in a bike lane 100% of the time, it's really not something you would think about imho.

I know there's partial fault on my part for not thoroughly ensuring a clear path to proceed, but the cyclist approached at some speed, without any reflective/bright colours.

I know this wouldn't have been an acceptable excuse had an accident happened.

Anyway, everyone will have a different opinion on it depending on you're point of view, but hopefully this thread will have encouraged people to take an extra second to look for things they may not ordinarily expect while in the car.

check_six

What's clear to see is that using a cycle lane gets seriously risky at a junction. The most dangerous part of any trip is at junctions (for all road users).

Cycle lane design in Ireland is for the most part very poor to downright hazardous. Some designs mean that the cyclist loses priority at every junction regardless of whether they are on the major road or not. Some designs have the cyclist on the wrong side of the road coming up to junctions. This is by far the most vulnerable position for a cyclist as no one will expect them to be coming from that direction.

The OPs incident may not have involved a lane that was designed to be contraflow, but it's impossible to tell from a car approaching the junction what way the cycle lane is designed.

The other problem is that the people who use cycle lanes the most are less confident and less experienced cyclists. They are the very ones who cannot identify what a dangerous position they are putting themselves in by using what they perceive to be a 'safe' cycle lane. They follow the lane and put themselves directly in harms way.

Poor design is creating these hazards.

beauf

Often see tourists going the wrong way on cycle lanes. I always wondered why. I most often see it where there is a cycle lane on one side of the road only. Maybe they think if theres only one its a two way cycle lane.