taking the big step

kerry cow

Hi , just looking for opinion .
I have been manager of a large farm now for 15yrs and an very thank full of all that I have learned in dairying , beef and tillage while working here .But back home in kerry a choice has come to go back home to restart milking on home farm which ceased 10 yrs ago but all facilities are there for 60 cows .beef would be sold for dairy .
It's a big step down size wise but it would be mine .thing is I would need to move now before school starts in September . Milk price is terrible but it would be spring 2017 before I start milking with as little investment as possible .Could go to 90 cows on grazing block .
This opportunity has taken me by surprise as I never thought that it would come my way .big choices and not long to make my mind .I have savings and oh has good sales experience .The old farm house is in good nick as we always used when home , so roof is free .
Any tips r advice ? Thanks

carrollsno1

Did you not say before you increased the home farms herd from 40 cows to 500 cows no?

kerry cow

. Apologies for confusion . As herd manager I had percentage sharing in herd here and after 15 yrs I would consider where I am "home farm " as there are out farms here .and yes over the years we have moved cows up to 500 . My next move is to kerry where I spent all my life growing up , schooling and holidays as much as possible (family bonding ) .I read all the local papers , follow and travel to matches and connect with all my neighbours through Web connect .you can be as connected or removed as you wish .
Now I have big choice to make and was just looking for opinion .
I am sure lifestyle will be more relaxed and finances may be tight at times but I am more concerned at this stage about children changing schools

Base price

What age are your children?

kerry cow

7 ; 9 and 11 . Good social skills .
Maybe it's the adults that are lacking a little gut

Dawggone

kerry cow wrote: »

Hi , just looking for opinion .
I have been manager of a large farm now for 15yrs and an very thank full of all that I have learned in dairying , beef and tillage while working here .But back home in kerry a choice has come to go back home to restart milking on home farm which ceased 10 yrs ago but all facilities are there for 60 cows .beef would be sold for dairy .
It's a big step down size wise but it would be mine .thing is I would need to move now before school starts in September . Milk price is terrible but it would be spring 2017 before I start milking with as little investment as possible .Could go to 90 cows on grazing block .
This opportunity has taken me by surprise as I never thought that it would come my way .big choices and not long to make my mind .I have savings and oh has good sales experience .The old farm house is in good nick as we always used when home , so roof is free .
Any tips r advice ? Thanks

More luck to you if you return to home farm, but 90 cows?
Will you be able to put your children through university on 90 cows?...the days of easy grants for farmers children are gone....I posted on another thread that small numbers of cows are a waste of time.

patsy_mccabe

If you can't make s living at milking 90 cows, something seriously wrong. Look prices will lift again, just not to the level they were at.

whelan2

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/going-the-distance-excellence-at-owner-operating-215096

Dawggone

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

If you can't make s living at milking 90 cows, something seriously wrong. Look prices will lift again, just not to the level they were at.

90 cows are fine, IF, you have no borrowings, got the farm and buildings etc for free Patsy. Just because for the last 30yrs you could live comfortably on 90 dairy cows, doesn't mean that it will be so for the next 30.

whelan2

Dawggone wrote: »

90 cows are fine, IF, you have no borrowings, got the farm and buildings etc for free Patsy. Just because for the last 30yrs you could live comfortably on 90 dairy cows, doesn't mean that it will be so for the next 30.

Thats just it though, you can not compare like with like every farm is so different, all these articles on agriland, journal etc everyone knows what suits their farm best and if an adviser turns up telling you to do x,y and z the buck stops with you. You will be paying for their plans not them

Dawggone

whelan2 wrote: »

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/going-the-distance-excellence-at-owner-operating-215096

His Dad founding member of an Irish insurance company....very unfair to put that up for ordinary folk to compare, just like the man in North Cork with the model beef operation...

Dawggone

whelan2 wrote: »

Thats just it though, you can not compare like with like every farm is so different, all these articles on agriland, journal etc everyone knows what suits their farm best and if an adviser turns up telling you to do x,y and z the buck stops with you. You will be paying for their plans not them

Agreed. However with dairy cows it pretty much rules out the chances of having another enterprise/job...90cows, in time, will be feck all...sorry Whelan but that's my opinion...but then I talk a lot of shyte!!

whelan2

Dawggone wrote: »

Agreed. However with dairy cows it pretty much rules out the chances of having another enterprise/job...90cows, in time, will be feck all...sorry Whelan but that's my opinion...but then I talk a lot of shyte!!

But as said before with no borrowingsand family labour 90 cows would be fine in my opinion

Dawggone

whelan2 wrote: »

But as said before with no borrowingsand family labour 90 cows would be fine in my opinion

And for re-investing back into the farm...putting a handful of children through Uni?

New rotary...tougher regs on slurry etc? Depend on grants?

Buford T. Justice XIX

Dawggone wrote: »

And for re-investing back into the farm...putting a handful of children through Uni?

New rotary...tougher regs on slurry etc? Depend on grants?

Very few farms have enough to put kids through Uni this year, Dawg. Should we all sell up?:pac:

90 cows will provide a living for a good few years yet on average, the 'on average' being the problem. We were talking last year on the dairy thread about the IGA summer dairy tour where one of the farmers had a 250 euro/cow cash fund built up to cater for the bad price years so something like that would be a big help, tax bill notwithstanding.

There is also the possibility of expanding the land base through renting/leasing bounding land or silage ground if further away.

And there are a few 50-60 cow men and women round here making a good living still but undoubtedly will be under more pressure in the future.

But it's always been that way. 20 cow men were common when I was growing up and they are mostly at 60-70+ cows now so there won't be any change to that in future, imo.

darragh_haven

If your maxing out at 80 cows, I'd go for once a day system with a part time job. I've visited 2 guys on the OAD and one has 68 cows in a 12 unit herringbone and he milks at 6am, get some other jobs done and it still gives him time to bring the kids to school and then off to part time work (25 to 28 hours a week & payed holidays). It's not for everyone but I really was impressed with how relaxed he was.


I can't see that amount of cows being your only source on income unless the farm is ready to walk into a start milking 80 to 90 cows.

J.O. Farmer

It'll be 6 to 10 years before the op's kids are going to college. What's to say at that point they won't do an apprenticeship or something maybe not even in a traditional trade. A lot could change with the changes in fees. I expect it will be a student loan system paid back through revenue if earnings for the graduate hit a certain level. As such the big cost to the op will be the cost of accommodation etc.
I think crystal ball gazing 10 or 20 years into the future is pointless. In farming a lot could change. 10 years ago was there talk of quotas going. There certainly wouldn't have been 20 years ago.
The OP needs to look at the next 5 years and weigh up not just income but lifestyle. I don't know where the op is based but iit's not Kerry and I don't think it's just across the county border in Cork or something. He aappears to have a great grà for the homeplaceaand will he regret not taking the chance whenhhe'son his death bed many years from now. Only the op can answer these questions.

Water John

Kerry, from what you write in your opening, your heart is already in Kerry. That counts for a lot. Best wishes if you decide to jump.
All family members need to feel consulted and buy into the move. Not lecturing, but its hard to think through your own thinking and also take on board the opinion of others at the same time.
Best wishes.

kerry cow

I have 40 cows on the farm where I manage . There is housing for 60 cows and 10 unit palour with milk tank for same . Hoping to change rubber ware and service will get her started . Machinery is a good little tractor and loader , spreader and topper .land in good nick as was always maintained as a good beef farm for last 10 years .
Only need stock going forward .have no intention of borrowing for infrastructure , not needed .
Have old farm house so won't have a mortgage, looking to run low input ,simple black and white system of 5200 litres on 350kg meal start calving 1st Feb with my 40 cows and buy in 40 more calved from savings .
The farm was left to myself and my brother but as he has a sudden medical issue it falls on me the opportunity to farm full time with him now exiting .
I will have to see out my management position till November ,then during dry time cows can move .
Family will move mid July .
Life can throw up some surprises !
Hopefully it will work out , even with all my experience I feel like a rabbit dazzled in the lights ,small panic .

Buford T. Justice XIX

kerry cow wrote: »

I have 40 cows on the farm where I manage . There is housing for 60 cows and 10 unit palour with milk tank for same . Hoping to change rubber ware and service will get her started . Machinery is a good little tractor and loader , spreader and topper .land in good nick as was always maintained as a good beef farm for last 10 years .
Only need stock going forward .have no intention of borrowing for infrastructure , not needed .
Have old farm house so won't have a mortgage, looking to run low input ,simple black and white system of 5200 litres on 350kg meal start calving 1st Feb with my 40 cows and buy in 40 more calved from savings .
The farm was left to myself and my brother but as he has a sudden medical issue it falls on me the opportunity to farm full time with him now exiting .
I will have to see out my management position till November ,then during dry time cows can move .
Family will move mid July .
Life can throw up some surprises !
Hopefully it will work out , even with all my experience I feel like a rabbit dazzled in the lights ,small panic .

You'll be grand:D

Keep us in the loop as to how you're getting on anyway.

Dawggone

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Very few farms have enough to put kids through Uni this year, Dawg. Should we all sell up?:pac:

90 cows will provide a living for a good few years yet on average, the 'on average' being the problem. We were talking last year on the dairy thread about the IGA summer dairy tour where one of the farmers had a 250 euro/cow cash fund built up to cater for the bad price years so something like that would be a big help, tax bill notwithstanding.

There is also the possibility of expanding the land base through renting/leasing bounding land or silage ground if further away.

And there are a few 50-60 cow men and women round here making a good living still but undoubtedly will be under more pressure in the future.

But it's always been that way. 20 cow men were common when I was growing up and they are mostly at 60-70+ cows now so there won't be any change to that in future, imo.

+1.
Exactly as you say sherif.


To see the future of dairy just look to other farming enterprises without market protection...

Muckit

kerry cow wrote: »

7 ; 9 and 11 . Good social skills .
Maybe it's the adults that are lacking a little gut

Go for it. You know you'll really make a go of things when it's your own and debt free. With a house. Where's the catch I'd be saying?

Everyone fears change. The ilder we are, the more set in our ways we become. I bet your kids are chomping at the bit to go!

Neighbour here milking around the 90 and wife works. They have a great lifestyle from the outside looking in. All getting a great education.

I say don't look a gift horse in the mouth!!

davidk1394

The very best of luck to you going forward. i was reading down through the thread and i couldn't see how a 90 cow dairy herd going forward in the future wouldn't be an option. I know if you over estimate your repayment capacity on loans you will run into difficulty alright. in my area here the scale of dairy farming within a mile goes from a herd of 40 cows which put two daughters through college to a herd of 400 who put the owner into a mental hospital. the quickest way to go broke is to expand. A good friend of mine has a herd of 87 cows that he took over from his father when he passed away. Since all the infrastructure is in place his operating costs are low. his going updating the milking parlor as its there since 1985, he bought ground next door to him and he can run the system on his own apart from the calving where he gets in a second person for 6 weeks to help out, he gets in a relief milker once during the weekend so he can finish up early and head off for the evening. From what he tells me he is making as much money as my neighbour who has 40 cows, rents 200 acres, employs himself his father 2 full time workers and a student for the spring, he has a stand off pad for the cows for the winter, and he works crazy hours. So perhaps the 90 cow herd does look more suitable and it allows you some time off if you manage it right.

kowtow

Dawggone wrote: »

His Dad founding member of an Irish insurance company....very unfair to put that up for ordinary folk to compare, just like the man in North Cork with the model beef operation...

I assume "owner operating" is the new euphemism for inherited land.

kowtow

kerry cow wrote: »

I have 40 cows on the farm where I manage . There is housing for 60 cows and 10 unit palour with milk tank for same . Hoping to change rubber ware and service will get her started . Machinery is a good little tractor and loader , spreader and topper .land in good nick as was always maintained as a good beef farm for last 10 years .
Only need stock going forward .have no intention of borrowing for infrastructure , not needed .
Have old farm house so won't have a mortgage, looking to run low input ,simple black and white system of 5200 litres on 350kg meal start calving 1st Feb with my 40 cows and buy in 40 more calved from savings .
The farm was left to myself and my brother but as he has a sudden medical issue it falls on me the opportunity to farm full time with him now exiting .
I will have to see out my management position till November ,then during dry time cows can move .
Family will move mid July .
Life can throw up some surprises !
Hopefully it will work out , even with all my experience I feel like a rabbit dazzled in the lights ,small panic .

Go for it, you've got everything you need to get started, and to make money you've first got to learn how not to lose it. I can't think of a better time to be learning that lesson than now.

Dawggone

kowtow wrote: »

I assume "owner operating" is the new euphemism for inherited land.

Understatement.

6270red

Not having to pay for a house is a huge advantage. You seem to know what your at so why not take the plunge one week as your own boss is better then a lifetime working for one!!!!

blue5000

It's going to be a huge change in mindset going from 400 cows to 80 approx, even though they'll all be yours. You could be bored!

kowtow

blue5000 wrote:

It's going to be a huge change in mindset going from 400 cows to 80 approx, even though they'll all be yours. You could be bored!

I doubt the cows will be.

"Right Daisy, you are the transition group to far off dry today. Stand over here and follow the protocol.

Not you Molly, get back in the query lameness mob with Buttercup."

simx

Have 45 cows here and that's all be able to milk here realistically, have a bit more land away but too far to walk cows, I'm screwed already according to all the boys, do try do everything myself, silage, slurry etc. invested a bit in machinery last 3 years most prob have paid for themselves at this stage as weren't massive money except loader(9k) but had to buy a loader for what we'll call the good tractor so for another maybe 3k I bought a fresh matbro, do rent a bit and turn as many beef cattle throughout the year be it selling again or finishing or just summer grazing, am going into another few things I don't wish to say here but there is a few bob in it too and can be done at home, do relief milking for a couple of lads too, don't have a mortgage either as living in farm house, am trying to be as self sufficient as possible and reckon I can make a living between a few things, not 50k/year or anything but an reasonable living, have a sprog on the way and that will be costly but gf does work too so will be back helping funds too

C0N0R

If you buy stock would you not be better off borrowing to do so? That money you have saved is out of the business, I would be inclined to leave it out and keep it for a personal rainy day fund.

As regards what you do all I can say is you're braver than I am!

TITANIUM.

Never mind the naysayers,
You have aquired all the skills you need to make this a success.
Go and make a job of your home place. You'll get more satisfaction outta working for yourself and back on the home farm. And God knows what opportunities will open up for you back in the kingdom.
Best of luck with it anyway.

BTW sorry to hear about your brothers illness. Tough for all the family. Hope he manages ok.

Base price

I think that the transition from one school to another is easier when children are in National school.
Will you be expected to financially support your ill brother considering he has a half share in the farm.

kerry cow

We have come to an permanent arrangement all is good

visatorro

simx wrote: »

Have 45 cows here and that's all be able to milk here realistically, have a bit more land away but too far to walk cows, I'm screwed already according to all the boys, do try do everything myself, silage, slurry etc. invested a bit in machinery last 3 years most prob have paid for themselves at this stage as weren't massive money except loader(9k) but had to buy a loader for what we'll call the good tractor so for another maybe 3k I bought a fresh matbro, do rent a bit and turn as many beef cattle throughout the year be it selling again or finishing or just summer grazing, am going into another few things I don't wish to say here but there is a few bob in it too and can be done at home, do relief milking for a couple of lads too, don't have a mortgage either as living in farm house, am trying to be as self sufficient as possible and reckon I can make a living between a few things, not 50k/year or anything but an reasonable living, have a sprog on the way and that will be costly but gf does work too so will be back helping funds too

Fair play. Obviously someone that will work hard to earn a living and raise a family. Which in my book is a brilliant quality in someone. Best of luck.

Dawggone

visatorro wrote: »

Fair play. Obviously someone that will work hard to earn a living and raise a family. Which in my book is a brilliant quality in someone. Best of luck.

So true.

Friends from way back sent over their teenage son to be my wingman for the summer , to 'get him out of himself'.
Father works in the City, house in Ascot etc. The young man only knows how to suck on a silver spoon...pasty white complexion, glued to tablet/iPhone...Jesus wept.

Lot to be said for farm upbringing.

freedominacup

Dawggone wrote: »

So true.

Friends from way back sent over their teenage son to be my wingman for the summer , to 'get him out of himself'.
Father works in the City, house in Ascot etc. The young man only knows how to suck on a silver spoon...pasty white complexion, glued to tablet/iPhone...Jesus wept.

Lot to be said for farm upbringing.

He probably thought he was going to France for the "season".

Dawggone

freedominacup wrote: »

He probably thought he was going to France for the "season".

.

In fairness if you engage him in the video games kinda way, he'll switch on...handed him an assortment of bearings and asked 'if in a war situation what would be your priorities for taking enemy industries?'...

Hard work, but enjoyable as has a brain.

Bullocks

Dawggone wrote: »

Lot to be said for farm upbringing.

I'd say the farm upbringing is wearing thin these days aswell . Alot of kids not being brought out farming anymore , and they're probably as well off too !

patsy_mccabe

Dawggone wrote: »

.

In fairness if you engage him in the video games kinda way, he'll switch on...handed him an assortment of bearings and asked 'if in a war situation what would be your priorities for taking enemy industries?'...

Hard work, but enjoyable as has a brain.

Not exactly the conversation to be having in France at the moment.

simx

Bullocks wrote: »

I'd say the farm upbringing is wearing thin these days aswell . Alot of kids not being brought out farming anymore , and they're probably as well off too !

it is and it isnt, keep alot of young lads out of trouble, cant think of loads of lads i would of been in school with, some have jobs and are hardworking and help out at home and dont mind it, know other lads that live on farms and dont do a tap, some may have no interest, maybe never did, maybe some of it is down to when they were younger probably got half abused and ate and dictated to the whole time and now see thr farm as a sh**hole, then theres just some that live in towns that are glorified wasters and see no point working, these are the small minded people that think all farmers are loaded, then theres a couple of townies that work on farms i know, i worked for one lad and he was a pr**k, if that was my only experience working on a farm id hate farming, if he had a son id feel sorry for him, alot of goig away from farming regarding youn ger generation is down to experiences too i think