UK gov trialling 'GovCoin'. Social welfare payments received and spent via an app

ceadaoin.

This sounds very sinister to me. It could and probably will lead to the government controlling where social welfare claimants can spend their benefits.

Good idea or is it going too far into 1984 territory?

GovCoin Systems Limited, a London-based fintech company, together with its partners Barclays, RWE npower and University College London, is trialling a new platform based on blockchain technology for UK’s Department for Work and Pensions.

By leveraging emergent distributed ledger technologies, machine learning and the ubiquity of mobile devices, GovCoin Systems aims to assist government and non-government organizations in distributing value more accurately, securely and efficiently to beneficiaries. The UK government has named the startup as the provider of new technology to support government aims in the distribution of profits.

Speaking at the Payments Innovation Conference 2016 on 4 July, Minister for Welfare Reform at the Department for Work and Pensions Lord Freud highlighted the ongoing trial saying:

“We have been working with GovCoin Systems (and their partners, Barclays, RWE npower and University College London) for this trial. Claimants are using an app on their phones through which they are receiving and spending their benefit payments. With their consent, their transactions are being recorded on a distributed ledger to support their financial management.”

The companies are developing a blockchain-based platform to reduce the friction and fraud costs in the distribution of social welfare and aid. The key to the proof-of-concept trial, which commenced in June, is to develop a secure and effective technology that users adopt and use to handle payments.

“GovCoin Systems brought together a team with deep expertise in core financial services infrastructure and global transaction services to build a platform with the potential to improve people’s lives. This proof-of-concept is the first concrete stage in that journey” Robert Kay, Chief Executive Officer, GovCoin Systems Limited, said. “We believe in a flexible, open and collaborative approach and are already working effectively with Barclays and RWE npower to develop creative answers to the complex problems faced.”

Jeremy Wilson, Vice Chairman, Corporate Banking at Barclays, explained that the initiative focuses on adding an additional layer of richer data and identity onto payments, so that a deeper and more effective relationship can be established between the government and claimants.

“We are keen to see how the positive potential of this service develops and adds to our wider efforts to explore the uses of distributed ledger technology”, he added.

LunarSea

Yeah, "Lord Freud" sounds exactly like the type of guy that knows what life on the dole is life and how being able to spend a bit of carefully budgeted money on something you enjoy (the peasants are occasionally allowed to have some "fun", right?) is like?

up for anything

Perhaps we should pay our taxes in PeopleCoin and insure that the government can only spend our money on things that would actually benefit us and improve our lives.

Love the new shitespeak though.

"a deeper and more effective relationship can be established between the government and claimants"

"distributing value more accurately, securely and efficiently to beneficiaries"

"additional layer of richer data and identity onto payments"

skywanderer

Hopefully Cigarettes and Alcohol are banned from it, I believe Australia has something similar going now.

Gatling

Perfectly reasonable in today's day and age

Junkyard Tom

skywanderer wrote: »

Hopefully Cigarettes and Alcohol are banned from it.

So the person under surveillance buys cake and trades it for cigarettes or alcohol.

When are you puritans ever going to learn you're doomed to failure?

makingmecrazy

An absolute load of codswallop.
This type of talk has gone around before about making SW through other methods, vouchers etc, whatever you want to call them.
Its totally unworkable and unpractical.
You would have to have service providers who accept this form of payment. Hence, shopping around for the best deal/price on a service or goods would be restricted. I also wonder if by getting a way around this, say a certain new supermarket, for example, lets call it "Value Price" was one of the only retailers who accepts this form of payment. Who would get the tender for this outlet?? Because we ALL know in this country that buddies look after buddies. No chance for corruption there....price hikes anyone? Cos you can't go anywhere else to spend your "scroungercoin". Lets shame people who are down on their luck just a teeny bit more.

Secondly, when did cash NOT become legal tender for everyone, irregardless of their circumstances? The old "smokes and booze" may apply to a very small minority of SW recipients. But as a stick to beat the unemployed with its becoming old and tired. So why tar everyone with the same brush?
Cash is still king. What happens if the phone breaks and you cant buy a new one? Let kids go hungry? Not pay bills? The levels of idiocy in this idea just go on and on.

And just as an aside...would this just be for Jobseekers payments?
Because for anything like Disability or Pension is a bit sick tbh

Gatling

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So the person under surveillance buys cake and trades it for cigarettes or alcohol.

Considering the cost of smokes vs cakes ,
You would need to be buying very expensive cakes

Giacomo McGubbin

Reminds me of the plan years ago that those on welfare should only be given vouchers that can only be redeemed for things like food and accommodation.

Big brother wants cash done away with worldwide and pronto, and not just for welfare recipients.

Gatling

makingmecrazy wrote: »

.would this just be for Jobseekers payments?
Because for anything like Disability or Pension is a bit sick tbh

Across the board as if should be why would it only be used for Jobseekers

darkpagandeath

Gatling wrote: »

Across the board as if should be why would it only be used for Jobseekers

Being a pensioner or disabled is a drain on society now ? Come to think of it being unemployable ? lets pay the ministers in the same coin ? they rely on the state to live.

LunarSea

Gatling wrote: »

Across the board as if should be why would it only be used for Jobseekers

Ah, so the "upper class convincing the middle class it's the lower class's fault" trick worked a treat with yourself?

Also people on disabilty and pensions aka. vulnerable members of society, (who have no doubt paid their share of taxes too) - lovely way to treat them, just lovely.

makingmecrazy

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So the person under surveillance buys cake and trades it for cigarettes or alcohol.

When are you puritans ever going to learn you're doomed to failure?

I dont know if you saw a recent Irish Dragons Den. It was a young guy(heart in the right place)who invented a chip/card type thing that can be given by a person to someone homeless/on the street instead of giving them cash.
They came in different denominations €1, €5 etc.

What in the hell does this stop or indeed do?
Say you or me buy a "token" for want of a better word, for a fiver and give it to some person sleeping rough. Good deed done? Stops them buying "smokes/booze/drugs"
No...no it doesn't.
All it does is create a trade in them in the black market.
Person who got the €5 token from you sells it to someone for €2 and on and on it goes.
No end to the sheer stupidity.

wes

Nonsensical and expensive system, so that people can feel good about having a go at the poor. Look even if you don't care about the poor, systems like are pointless and expensive, and they do not help things.

makingmecrazy

Gatling wrote: »

Across the board as if should be why would it only be used for Jobseekers

I can only assume you are being facetious with this comment.
Disability? You are aware that there are people with varying degrees of different disabilities may NOT be actually able to use a phone, never mind an app. I know people with disabilities that have taken YEARS to get using money, actual money. Never mind an app.

And pensioners? You may have missed it but a lot of the older generation aren't particularly au fait with tech.
But hey, have at it..............

syklops

Gatling wrote: »

Considering the cost of smokes vs cakes ,
You would need to be buying very expensive cakes

Cake was a bad example. Bottle of vodka = £20. Its very easy to go into a butchers and spend £20 quid on meat.

If this is meant to curb spending on alcohol and smokes, it wont work.

darkpagandeath

makingmecrazy wrote: »

I can only assume you are being facetious with this comment.
Disability? You are aware that there are people with varying degrees of different disabilities may NOT be actually able to use a phone, never mind an app. I know people with disabilities that have taken YEARS to get using money, actual money. Never mind an app.

And pensioners? You may have missed it but a lot of the older generation aren't particularly au fait with tech.
But hey, have at it..............

Sure they were all on the dole never worked a day in their lives too. Again would ministers or TD's accept the same coin as they rely on the tax payer for a wage ? I mean you can live off lidel.

Junkyard Tom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwylBRucU7w

Gatling

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Being a pensioner or disabled is a drain on society now ? Come to think of it being unemployable ? lets pay the ministers in the same coin ? they rely on the state to live.

But if all payments switch to some kind of digital coin / credits system what difference would it make surely saying oh pay these with digital coins but pay others in traditional cash would be considered discrimination.
Especially been the payments are made through social welfare.

darkpagandeath

Gatling wrote: »

But if all payments switch to some kind of digital coin / credits system what difference would it make surely saying oh pay these with digital coins but pay others in traditional cash would be considered discrimination.
Especially been the payments are made through social welfare.

Government wages are a form of social welfare they are getting the money from the public. If you want a BMW paid for go work in the private sector. There is no way in hell they would suggest a coin for government employees. We pay there wages just like the guys on the scratch. I assume they would be fine with there cc being unable to buy booze and smokes too ?

mansize

Remember all that butter we got with butter vouchers

darkpagandeath

mansize wrote: »

Remember all that butter we got with butter vouchers

lol 10 JB :P

ceadaoin.

makingmecrazy wrote: »

An absolute load of codswallop.
This type of talk has gone around before about making SW through other methods, vouchers etc, whatever you want to call them.
Its totally unworkable and unpractical.
You would have to have service providers who accept this form of payment. Hence, shopping around for the best deal/price on a service or goods would be restricted. I also wonder if by getting a way around this, say a certain new supermarket, for example, lets call it "Value Price" was one of the only retailers who accepts this form of payment.

I notice one of the backers is npower. Presumably people with this app would be limited to them to provide their gas and electricity. They won't be able to shop around and npower can charge what they want. Ridiculous

mansize

Butter vouchers are a more stable currency than sterling tbf

darkpagandeath

I have an idea.

lets introduce a CC for all people in receipt of public money. with provision on what is bad and what you are not allowed to buy. I'm sure that vote would pass in seconds.

makingmecrazy

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I notice one of the backers is npower. Presumably people with this app would be limited to them to provide their gas and electricity. They won't be able to shop around and npower can charge what they want. Ridiculous

This has been in the works for a while I reckon.
I can already smell the stench of corruption from it. And as I said, why stop at gas and electric. Lets set up cosy cartels for supermarkets, clothing etc etc

Tbh, its so predictable at this point, its pathetic.

darkpagandeath

makingmecrazy wrote: »

This has been in the works for a while I reckon.
I can already smell the stench of corruption from it.

wonder if the guy has the patent ?

makingmecrazy

darkpagandeath wrote: »

wonder if the guy has the patent ?

He most certainly will do.
Its good to be at the top looking down.

darkpagandeath

makingmecrazy wrote: »

He most certainly will do.
Its good to be at the top looking down.

I wonder has he thought of the collateral damage in the economy ?

Gatling

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I assume they would be fine with there cc being unable to buy booze and smokes too ?

Going by the article no mention of any kind of restrictions on purchases just like they won't stop people sending there money abroad either to support others .

Look at the situation we have here with charities like SVP when they go to individuals and families when asked for help most of the time they give vouchers ,if your behind on bills they take your bill pay it whether it be gas of electric they don't give cash .
Is that a bad thing or good thing .

I'd say that a new version of the PCS card could be used to make payments at point of sales no apps or gadgets required

darkpagandeath

Gatling wrote: »

Going by the article no mention of any kind of restrictions on purchases just like they won't stop people sending there money abroad either to support others .

Look at the situation we have here with charities like SVP when they go to individuals and families when asked for help most of the time they give vouchers ,if your behind on bills they take your bill pay it whether it be gas of electric they don't give cash .
Is that a bad thing or good thing .

I'd say that a new version of the PCS card could be used to make payments at point of sales no apps or gadgets required

A card with zero restrictions being digital makes sense. But we all know it's not about saving money. as long as bb has no imput.

makingmecrazy

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I wonder has he thought of the collateral damage in the economy ?

Well, the sale of smokes and booze will hit an all time low(if you believe the hype):D

syklops

makingmecrazy wrote: »

Well, the sale of smokes and booze will hit an all time low(if you believe the hype):D

No they wont.

Its dead Jim

Considering its in the UK it will probably lead to only being able to buy bread in the company that one of the guys making the law is a part of. Plus it is easy to get around for those who want to. Overall, the only real benefit of it is to make other people feel better.

Bring it in here and you have to shop in topaz.

makingmecrazy

syklops wrote: »

No they wont.

Do i have to do a giant "Wooooosh"?

darkpagandeath

Its dead Jim wrote: »

Considering its in the UK it will probably lead to only being able to buy bread in the company that one of the guys making the law is a part of. Plus it is easy to get around for those who want to. Overall, the only real benefit of it is to make other people feel better.

Bring it in here and you have to shop in topaz.

I imagine a guy on the street with folders on folders of cards with various none booze and none smokers. all being traded and used. You make a purchase for booze off the none drinkers card they use the same money to buy food. And rinse and repeat.

LunarSea

Gatling wrote: »

Look at the situation we have here with charities like SVP when they go to individuals and families when asked for help most of the time they give vouchers ,if your behind on bills they take your bill pay it whether it be gas of electric they don't give cash .
Is that a bad thing or good thing .

SVP bailing someone out of a difficult situation is good.

Demonising, demoralising, degrading, denigrating and dictating (all about alliteration this evening!) to those that are vulnerable, down on their luck, etc. is abhorrent and reeks of both corruption and some sort of slide into an Orwellian hell.

Again, it's mind blowing that people don't seem to grasp that folk drawing social welfare have paid into the system itself. I've drawn the dole in the past. I've also paid a tonne of tax. The boyos and ladies in the Dail are a much, much bigger drain on public finances than some lad going down to the dole office. Even "lifers" that don't want to work a day in their lives are less of a financial drain than a few crap TDs.

You're also taking a bit of spending power out of the economy, or at least shaping how it can be spent (as others have noted, the lads will no doubt "strategically partner" with their mates down the golf club)

Also, regarding the elderly, ill, etc. what's the quote? "The measure of a society is how well it supports its vulnerable". This shíte isn't showing the UK in a very good light at all.

Jimmy Garlic

skywanderer wrote: »

Hopefully Cigarettes and Alcohol are banned from it, I believe Australia has something similar going now.

Australia is always one step ahead with nanny state legislation.

mansize

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Australia is always one step ahead with nanny state legislation.

And failing miserably to achieve intended goal

Jimmy Garlic

mansize wrote: »

And failing miserably to achieve intended goal

Yep. The only sure thing I can see coming out of such a silly measure is an increase in crime.

K-9

up for anything wrote: »

Perhaps we should pay our taxes in PeopleCoin and insure that the government can only spend our money on things that would actually benefit us and improve our lives.

Love the new shitespeak though.

"a deeper and more effective relationship can be established between the government and claimants"

"distributing value more accurately, securely and efficiently to beneficiaries"

"additional layer of richer data and identity onto payments"

The gobblygook is fcuking amazing.

ceadaoin.

Gatling wrote: »

Going by the article no mention of any kind of restrictions on purchases just like they won't stop people sending there money abroad either to support others .

Look at the situation we have here with charities like SVP when they go to individuals and families when asked for help most of the time they give vouchers ,if your behind on bills they take your bill pay it whether it be gas of electric they don't give cash .
Is that a bad thing or good thing .

I'd say that a new version of the PCS card could be used to make payments at point of sales no apps or gadgets required

Do you think the cheap fruit and veg stall at the local market will be equipped to accept these payments? The local charity shop? A private seller on a website? Car boot sales?

An energy company is already involved in this. Why do you think that is?

People on a limited budget often have to shop around and buy stuff second hand. They can't always afford to shop in the big name stores who are likely to be more expensive and also more likely to be equipped with this technology.

up for anything wrote: »

Perhaps we should pay our taxes in PeopleCoin and insure that the government can only spend our money on things that would actually benefit us and improve our lives.

Love the new shitespeak though.

"a deeper and more effective relationship can be established between the government and claimants"

"distributing value more accurately, securely and efficiently to beneficiaries"

"additional layer of richer data and identity onto payments"

All those statements amount to the same thing - big brother is watching

suicide_circus

For those capable of work but who have never worked maybe. For those who have paid their stamps or are on disability etc no way.

ElvisChrist6

First people will complain that someone on the dole isn't paying taxes, then they complain that a person on the dole is buying an item that 80% of the price goes to the revenue. :rolleyes:

Begrudgery is a word the middle class throw at the working class a lot regarding those that do well for themselves, but you see far more begrudging against someone wanting to survive. Especially if they can manage to do something they enjoy.

Samaris

Sounds like the American system - vouchers. It works, for a given value of works, but seems pretty demeaning to me.

Although getting a state salary for work done for the state in the employment of the government is not social welfare no matter how you look at it. Public funding of wages does not social welfare make.

See how many gardai we have patrolling the streets if they're getting paid in plastic peanuts for a limited shopping ability.

jimmy blevins

The future is far darker than Orwell predicted, at least in 1984 they got a ration of gin and cigs.

Speedwell

So, the welfare is also going to provide smart phones to people who can't afford food, right?

Gatling

Speedwell wrote: »

So, the welfare is also going to provide smart phones to people who can't afford food, right?

Wouldn't have to could easily be done through a smart card .