Dpf, do all modern diesels have them?

Green farmer

In the market for a 3 year old diesal MPV. Question is do all modern diesal engines have dpf's, and if so, are there any brands where the dpf's don't create issues ? Or all they all the same ?

Del2005

Green farmer wrote: »

In the market for a 3 year old diesal MPV. Question is do all modern diesal engines have dpf's, and if so, are there any brands where the dpf's don't create issues ? Or all they all the same ?

The problem isn't the DPF it's the operator. Too many people bought cheap motor tax diesels when their driving doesn't suit diesel, they are for long runs not short trips.

bazz26

They were mandatory on all new diesel cars from about 2011 onwards, before that it depended on the make, model and engine fitted.

grogi

Green farmer wrote: »

In the market for a 3 year old diesal MPV. Question is do all modern diesal engines have dpf's, and if so, are there any brands where the dpf's don't create issues ? Or all they all the same ?

Diesels can't satisfy Euro V norm without it. I think it is 2011 when it was mandatory...

turbocab

Del2005 wrote: »

The problem isn't the DPF it's the operator. Too many people bought cheap motor tax diesels when their driving doesn't suit diesel, they are for long runs not short trips.

it is actually,pre dpf filters none of these problems when these arrived with egr valves all these problems came with them, I had an astr diesel, got a run from wexford to Dublin every second weekend and still had problems with them blocking everything up on the inlet manifold etc,the greens have a lot to answer for,worred about co2 and not the harmful nox,but its all coming out now,

grogi

turbocab wrote: »

the greens have a lot to answer for,worred about co2 and not the harmful nox,but its all coming out now,

You're contradicting yourself... DPF and EGR don't beat CO₂ emission at all; they were introduced because some Green-heads did worry about PM and NOₓ.

Green farmer

Was a lot of this new technology rushed through and abit too complicated ? Go to a mechanic now and some just fire bits in the hope that one fixes the problem. I know a lad who told be he has a computer cost him a few hundred, but unless he has one with a package worth a few grand he cannt properly tell what's wrong with a car.

Del2005

turbocab wrote: »

it is actually,pre dpf filters none of these problems when these arrived with egr valves all these problems came with them, I had an astr diesel, got a run from wexford to Dublin every second weekend and still had problems with them blocking everything up on the inlet manifold etc,the greens have a lot to answer for,worred about co2 and not the harmful nox,but its all coming out now,

Getting a run on a motorway might not regen a DPF, the engine needs to work to regen and motorway speed in top gear sometimes doesn't work the engine enough.

Del2005

Green farmer wrote: »

Was a lot of this new technology rushed through and abit too complicated ? Go to a mechanic now and some just fire bits in the hope that one fixes the problem. I know a lad who told be he has a computer cost him a few hundred, but unless he has one with a package worth a few grand he cannt properly tell what's wrong with a car.

That's manufacturers using proprietary software not rushed technology, the EU tried to push through open software but never succeeded.

Some 1st generation technology has issues, always has, but there's very little 1st generation technology these days.

Giacomo McGubbin

Del2005 wrote: »

The problem isn't the DPF it's the operator. Too many people bought cheap motor tax diesels when their driving doesn't suit diesel, they are for long runs not short trips.

Any engine system not suitable for regular short journey's as well as long ones is a bad design and not fit for purpose, no matter what the manufactures and their agents spin.

Green farmer

Del2005 wrote: »

Getting a run on a motorway might not regen a DPF, the engine needs to work to regen and motorway speed in top gear sometimes doesn't work the engine enough.

I read somewhere 2,000rpm for a minimum of 20 minutes ? Or it there something else we should be doing ?

NIMAN

Would I be right in saying most petrol cars have something equivalent too?

FortySeven

NIMAN wrote: »

Would I be right in saying most petrol cars have something equivalent too?

No.

grogi

NIMAN wrote: »

Would I be right in saying most petrol cars have something equivalent too?

Not yet...

However direct gasoline injection engines make some nasty stuff too, we'll get a Gpf filters soon...

turbocab

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

Any engine system not suitable for regular short journey's as well as long ones is a bad design and not fit for purpose, no matter what the manufactures and their agents spin.

well said. and if diesels were greener than petrol why is paris proposing to ban diesel cars

bazz26

Why would you need a diesel car around Paris or any other city to begin with, unless it was being used as public transport or for commercial reasons?

Renegade Mechanic

grogi wrote: »

Not yet...

However direct gasoline injection engines make some nasty stuff too, we'll get a Gpf filters soon...

True. The ultra lean burn design will generate copius Nox emissions but at least with petrols, the equipment should see most of it's life out just fine without soot blocking everything up.

To the best of my knowledge, the only diesel engine good enough to meet Euro emissions regulations without a DPF was the 1.3 diesel made by fiat, but bits of the engine are made of plastic and the turbo blows holes in them so it's a bit of a trade off...

RandomAccess

Correct me if I am wrong but this may help the OP,

Diesels with a plain DPF need longer trips so the high temperature regen cycle can operate to clean themselves out. This is causing major issues for many people.

Diesels with a DPF which include DEF/Eolys fluid can regenerate at lower temperatures so should not suffer from the same issues.

Green farmer

RandomAccess wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but this may help the OP,

Diesels with a DPF which include DEF/Eolys fluid can regenerate at lower temperatures so should not suffer from the same issues.

maybe , but plenty of cars out there running on these fluids that still give trouble.

Jack lemmon

Green farmer wrote: »

maybe , but plenty of cars out there running on these fluids that still give trouble.

Yes my '11 s40 with 110k, regular Volvo service, one hour of motorway driving six days every week and has that expensive fluid stuff. Dpf failed and I had to get it reconditioned a few wks ago. As I'm waiting on a factory ordered golf, sickened I was!

grogi

RandomAccess wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but this may help the OP,

Diesels with a plain DPF need longer trips so the high temperature regen cycle can operate to clean themselves out. This is causing major issues for many people.

Diesels with a DPF which include DEF/Eolys fluid can regenerate at lower temperatures so should not suffer from the same issues.

Majority of those cars do suffer because... Well... Again... Poor servicing...

First things first:

While it is true that dry DPF does need to get proper temperature to reduce the carbon residue, the Engine ECU is usually quite good with making sure those conditions happen.

With a dry DPF, the soot will reduce at 550°C. Longer stretches of aggressive driving allow for this temperature to be reached without any special activity from engine ECU. This temperature of combustion is lowered to 450°C when Eolys is used in a wet DPF, thus those conditions are met more often.

However if the ECU decides the DPF is full (various ways of doing so - typically by measuring pressure difference at the entry and exit of the filter) decides to heat it up... The goal is to get some diesel to burn in the exhaust to heat it up. In a few engines (1.5dCi for instance) there is even an additional fuel injector to the DPF, but injecting diesel to the cylinder late in the combustion cycle does work similarly (but might dilute the engine oil). Extra load will be put on the engine (all electric heaters will be switched on, like mirrors, read window etc) to make the exhaust more hot...

Obviously, with a wet DPF the active regeneration needs to be initialised much less frequently, and the filter does not need to be heated that much. With a wet DPF the active regeneration is hardly noticeable.

So why poor servicing?

It is not only carbon residue that blocks the DPF. There is also ash - it gets to the filter by burning diesel and even small quantities of incorrect grade oil. That's why DPF equipped cars need at least ACEA Cx oils, and those with Three Way Converters need LowSAPS oils : ACEA C1 or C4.

Unfortunately the ash cannot be removed by the car on its own - once it gets there, stays there, limiting the capacity of the DPF. Carbon burns, ash does not. And that is the problem...

The incompetence of garages when comes to oil grades (engine, gearbox etc) is very scary. There are good garages, but unfortunately, an oil is typically differentiated in terms synthetic (5W30 or 5W40)/semi-synthetic (10W40). That's all they care about. Hardly anyone would know which ACEA spec they use, not to mention manufacturers recommendations/approvals. Even at the franchised dealerships.

Other issues

As stated in this thread, there are other things that can go bad in a diesel power-train:
• injectors
• high pressure pump: if the pump starts throwing metal scraps, the injectors will go too very fast
• 5th (typically...) in the DPF - this thread is the first time I hear about them breaking down - but not really surprising.
• DMF (that's why I tend to choose automatics with torque converter); petrols do have them now as well...

grogi

grogi wrote: »

Not yet...

However direct gasoline injection engines make some nasty stuff too, we'll get a Gpf filters soon...

And here we go...

Mercedes-Benz plans the large-scale use of particulate filters for gasoline engines—the first manufacturer to do so. After more than two years of positive field tests with the Mercedes-Benz S 500, additional versions of the S-Class with gasoline engines are to be equipped with this new technology with the next model upgrade. That will be followed by gradual implementation in further new models, model upgrades and new engine generations. After that, particulate filters will also be applied in the current model ranges.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/05/20160527-mb.html

The Volkswagen Group will begin equipping the Group’s new TSI and TFSI gasoline direct injection engines with gasoline particulate filters (GPF). This initiative, announced by Group CEO Matthias Müller at the Group’s annual general meeting, will begin with the 1.4 liter TSI engine in the new VW Tiguan and the Audi A5 in June 2017.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/06/20160623-vwag.html

Special Circumstances

Das Clean Petrol


Between coking up of intake valves and GPFs, high "repair costs" to "value" ratio on older cars, long term "cradle to the grave" green-ness won't be any better at all I suspect.