First Class (Enterprise & Goldmine) v Premier

XPS_Zero

(...that was obviously meant to be Goldline..is autocorrect EVER actually helpful??)

Recently, I was on a trip to Cork. It became a nightmare on the way down due to loud drunks who apparently don't realise earphones exist, it was full full and v stuffy\hot and loud. I decided to try FC on the way back since I can afford it.. I had similar nice experience on a Belfast trip after.
It was a world of difference, more space, comfort, decent food, air conditioning not broken , seats not worn and with catering car between me and standard nice and quiet.

This is good because my first FC experience went v badly. I was on my way home from Belfast during the upgrade and decided what the hell, but my booking said B2 or something, the Enterprise usually has two FC carrages (A & . I was to be the second. Seeing an ICR pull up, not knowing about Premier I thought "crap" but when I got on saw ICRs do have a FC..scaled down anyway. Knowing what it's like to try to get a refund out of IE I tried FC. So there was no B carriage for FC but I'd paid the higher rate so in I went to FC quickly scanning the reservation panels to see if a seat was free...an entire 4 seater was free. Some catering guy with terrible English and a look of exasperated outrage and this uppidy member of the unwashed hoardes threw me out repeating "b..b...b" over and over locking his eyes on the seat number on my ticket while ignoring me when I pointed out the price and ticket type. Maybe because I wasn't wearing my Tux or Abercrombie & Fitch sweater w\shirt collar or some other of obvious rich kid uniform he thought I was 'steerage' chancing my arm, more likely he was just bad at his job...I was fuming but found no conductor.

I travel A LOT on Irish Rail Intercity so I scanned the timetables on the website for every Connoly & Heuston route to see if there were other FC services, there don't seem to be, every one has the S cube alongside.
Obviously some are viable and some not, you won't get demand for FC to Waterford. But I do think there are some routes where the (way) more scaled down version of it, "Premier", might be in demand with a smaller price premium.

So...

1. Would this not work on long uncomfortable routes where it would be in some demand like Sligo, Rosslare, Galway and Westport? 3hour+ journeys even on a train are demanding it would take the edge off? Again for a smaller premium? All but Rosslare are longer trips.

2. Why put an order in for modified ICRs when they were buying them if they won't use them? I saw at least three parked and collecting dust in Heuston today two of them in the garage. Did they just order them as fill ins for Belfast? Surely not? So they must have intended to use them...so why don't they?

3. If no1 is unviable why not at least put the FC inclusive sets permanently (I've seen them do this the ODD time leaving carrage A as 'whoever wants to take them' seats) on those longer less comfy routes as "online booking\resered seats only" carrages where FC is. Virgin have reserved seats only carrages in UK it works great, since respecting reservations is a big problem with IE this has to help. Plus it would have the added bonus of a catering car instead of a miserable poxy trolly (with warm unrefrigerated drinks) ideal for Rosslare, Galway, Westport, Sligo.

LXFlyer

All of the ICRs are in use - just because you saw them in a siding at Heuston doesn't mean that they weren't operating a service later.

Their use will always be more intense at peak hour.

Other sets that overnight at provincial locations will be serviced during the day.

Jamie2k9

Irish Rail have withdrawn all first class operations on the ICR's apart from the daily return (Mon-Fri) Tralee service and 16.00/19.20 (Mon-Fri) on Cork route. It only happened in last 12 months or so.

They had operated on peak services on all InterCity routes ex Heuston but there was never demand and the product on offer wasn't great. You only get numbers on the Tralee service.

Of course this decision was taken after they splashed out on cheap lights and leather covers.

L1011

Is there any explanation why there actually is demand to Tralee?

The one time I did do First to Belfast I had the train host horrified when I presented tickets - two 19 year olds (yes, this was a VERY long time ago) in rugby jerseys with First tickets. We were treated like scum that had crept in to the carriage despite paying full fare.

Del.Monte

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Irish Rail have withdrawn all first class operations on the ICR's apart from the daily return (Mon-Fri) Tralee service and 16.00/19.20 (Mon-Fri) on Cork route. It only happened in last 12 months or so.

They had operated on peak services on all InterCity routes ex Heuston but there was never demand and the product on offer wasn't great. You only get numbers on the Tralee service.

Of course this decision was taken after they splashed out on cheap lights and leather covers.

Chicken and egg isn't it? Like so much of the offering from CIE - if the service offered is poor why would people use it? CIE and their cheerleaders fall-back on the 'nobody used it' argument. Think Harcourt Street, Rosslare/Waterford, Sundries, Fastrack and whatever you're having yourself. :rolleyes:

Jamie2k9

L1011 wrote: »

Is there any explanation why there actually is demand to Tralee?

The one time I did do First to Belfast I had the train host horrified when I presented tickets - two 19 year olds (yes, this was a VERY long time ago) in rugby jerseys with First tickets. We were treated like scum that had crept in to the carriage despite paying full fare.

It does well but never packed. It regularly reaches double digit numbers where as all other routes would only get a handful of people.

It would be the key business link out of Kerry to Dublin apart from flights and given the near 4 hour service and good times you can see why some might take the option. They also get in seat catering something which most others didn't outside the Cork service.

Chicken and egg isn't it? Like so much of the offering from CIE - if the service offered is poor why would people use it? CIE and their cheerleaders fall-back on the 'nobody used it' argument. Think Harcourt Street, Rosslare/Waterford, Sundries, Fastrack and whatever you're having yourself.

TBH I think reducing the 10 units to 5 coaches was a major reason behind the scrapping. I don't think that improving the offering would make a major difference and increased costs would not be covered by revenue. There just isn't enough demand as it so so extensive market research would really be needed before anything happens.

tabbey

Only a fool would pay extra for Premium class, same seats, only advantage is that you are less likely to have to share with a less salubrious passenger.

Ideally all mainline trains should have some provision for a premium product, 2+1 seating, extra legroom, at a premium fare 50% more than standard. The difficulty is matching supply to demand on different services, different times, different days.

Decades ago, I used enjoy weekend first class for a fiver extra on British Railways. Something similar on off peak here could be viable.

Not providing any first class accommodation, is just throwing away a source of revenue.

Del.Monte

Not having 1st/Premium also lowers the benchmark for the whole service which is why the advent of Belmond is so welcome. Public expectations for what CIE themselves offer will rise, and they are going to feel the heat if they don't up their game considerably.

Jamie2k9

Del.Monte wrote: »

Not having 1st/Premium also lowers the benchmark for the whole service which is why the advent of Belmond is so welcome. Public expectations for what CIE themselves offer will rise, and they are going to feel the heat if they don't up their game considerably.

Not at all. well once they find out that it will cost €7,000+ Anybody outside of here and spotters will not have a clue about the Belmond operation.

Only a fool would pay extra for Premium class, same seats, only advantage is that you are less likely to have to share with a less salubrious passenger.

Ideally all mainline trains should have some provision for a premium product, 2+1 seating, extra legroom, at a premium fare 50% more than standard. The difficulty is matching supply to demand on different services, different times, different days.

Decades ago, I used enjoy weekend first class for a fiver extra on British Railways. Something similar on off peak here could be viable.

Not providing any first class accommodation, is just throwing away a source of revenue.

Not throwing away a lot of revenue but at the same time irritating annual and other intercity travelers by depriving them of seats. Many UK IC routes are reducing FC offering quiet substantially.

end of the road

Del.Monte wrote: »

Not having 1st/Premium also lowers the benchmark for the whole service which is why the advent of Belmond is so welcome. Public expectations for what CIE themselves offer will rise, and they are going to feel the heat if they don't up their game considerably.

i wish i could share the same optimism but sadly i can't. neither CIE, NTA/TFI/whatever they call themselves today, or government gives a dam nor will they ever insure improvements to rail services. they will gladly reward for failure mediocrity and excuses by allowing IE to close more lines no doubt!

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not at all. well once they find out that it will cost €7,000+

i doubt they would expect a service that costs €7,000+ in fairness, just better then what they get. that includes all lines branded as intercity receiving the same standard class service, rather then when IE feels like it as in the case of connolly long distance services.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not throwing away a lot of revenue but at the same time irritating annual and other intercity travelers by depriving them of seats.

that is possibly the case i don't know. what i do know though is the offering in standard class needs to be better and attractive to people. offering the bare basics and charging what they do doesn't cut it in my view.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Many UK IC routes are reducing FC offering quiet substantially.

that is true, but they do have the amount of standard class passengers now to vastly outweigh the revenue from fc. i am not to sure if that is the case here, but it may very well be. our other problem is that unlike the uk where people have no real option but to use the train as the alternatives aren't good enough, people have plenty of alternatives that offer them the same basics at lower cost and that needed to be recognised by IE years ago. so the railway does have to up it's game. maybe fc isn't what is needed, and maybe they're wouldn't be a market i don't know, but certainly a much higher standard class product needs to be aimed for and implemented.

Del.Monte

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not at all. well once they find out that it will cost €7,000+ Anybody outside of here and spotters will not have a clue about the Belmond operation.



Not throwing away a lot of revenue but at the same time irritating annual and other intercity travelers by depriving them of seats. Many UK IC routes are reducing FC offering quiet substantially.

€3,160 is the cheapest Belmond offering so there's no need to quote the highest. If you don't think that Belmond is going to create a demand for CIE to improve its services I think that you're mistaken. But, it is Ireland and the public seem to tolerate mediocrity so you may be proven correct. I still want to know why CIE could not have developed their own luxury train using MkIIIs ......

Jamie2k9

Del.Monte wrote: »

€3,160 is the cheapest Belmond offering so there's no need to quote the highest. If you don't think that Belmond is going to create a demand for CIE to improve its services I think that you're mistaken. But, it is Ireland and the public seem to tolerate mediocrity so you may be proven correct. I still want to know why CIE could not have developed their own luxury train using MkIIIs ......

It;s not going to create any demand for a over prices first class offering. You have yet to offer something credible to back it up.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It;s not going to create any demand for a over prices first class offering.

he never said it would though. he simply said that the new belmond train would likely make people have a good think about what they get from CIE, and whether it is worth what they pay for it. they may end up starting to have higher expectations. those higher expectations will be way less grandeos then what would be offered by belmond, but would be a decent bit more then what is currently offered which is a bare basic service (or a lower then cattle service if your line isn't one of the ones CIE want)
none of us probably have the answers. but we must agree that IE charging what they do but offering only a bare minimum is either not working over all, or if it is it won't work indefinitely.