Not sure if this is legal??

Questions16

I've been on sick leave from work for a little over 4 weeks now, due to a sudden illness. They have really been on my case to be honest.

Up until this, I have only been out sick one day from my current job in the past year.

My superiors told me I had to call them weekly with updates, I did as asked, but the other day I was told that now I have to have weekly meetings with them at work.

Is it legal for an employee to be on work premises while they are on medical certificates?

I'm asking this because a while ago, another employee who had given in a medical certificate came back one day before the certificate was finished and he practically got ran out the door by the manager. The manager said he shouldn't have been on the premises before his medical certificate had ended.

I have coworkers who also use boards.ie regularly, so I don't want to go into much detail to be safe.

Any information would be appreciated.

davo10

Your manger was correct to "run" your collegues, he should not have come back to work while certified sick. If anything happens to him when working while certified, the employer would be liable. He should have gotten a letter from his Dr informing them he was now well enough to return earlier than expected.

In your case, your cert does not excuse you from work, it does however explain your absence. Your employer has a right to be kept informed of your continued absence, in most cases this is in the form of weekly/fort nightly certs but in some cases it does involve meetings, your contract of employment should set out the company policy in relation to absences due to illness. You are not returning to work when you attend these meetings but you are keeping them informed of the reasons why you are absent. Be aware that continued absences and inability to carry out your duties can lead, in certain circumstances to termination of employment.

How long have you been working there and what does your contract say?

Questions16

I have been working there for one year from the start of this month.

I'd have to root out my contract to check properly, but my manager told me that I had to call once a week for the duration of my absence, on top of getting medical certificates of course. She never mentioned anything about switching to meetings being company policy or at what stage they would have to begin.

I am also aware that my condition has been discussed among the staff.

To be honest, I am not even sure I want to return there now.

I feel they have purposely been putting pressure on me to return, once again I won't go into detail to be cautious.

Thank you for your advice, davo10.

davo10

It is certainly not the norm that you have to physically attend for a meeting every week, the only thing I can think of is that they may think that you are using the cert to go on holiday at a time when you knew you would not get annual holiday leave.

Questions16

I'm supposed to be on annual holiday leave next week, I booked it months ago.

I asked about how that would work with being on medical certificates and my manager had no idea, in short.

I got my medical certificate for the week, to be safe. So now I have no idea if it's going to be considered annual holidays or not by head office.

My manager referred to next week as my holidays, this was after my medical certificate had been dropped in to cover next week, yet they still want me to attend a meeting during it, which I think is unfair if this is actually my annual holiday leave!

Emmadilema123

Questions16 wrote: »

I'm supposed to be on annual holiday leave next week, I booked it months ago.

I asked about how that would work with being on medical certificates and my manager had no idea, in short.

I got my medical certificate for the week, to be safe. So now I have no idea if it's going to be considered annual holidays or not by head office.

My manager referred to next week as my holidays, this was after my medical certificate had been dropped in to cover next week, yet they still want me to attend a meeting during it, which I think is unfair if this is actually my annual holiday leave!

They are not allowed to take that out of holidays while your certified sick. Do they want you to attend company doctor at these meetings?

PlainP

To me it sounds like you are pis$ed off that you have to come into the meeting as you will be on holidays, but if you are sick you're not going to be on holidays.

So you should be available for the meeting?!

Questions16

Thanks Emmadilema123, they have not mentioned a company doctor, as of yet.

My weekly phone calls were to update them on my condition, which has been frustrating to be honest, as it's not the kind of illness that has a typical duration, so I don't have much information to update them with, other than any dates for doctor appointments or further tests I have to get.

I don't know what they expect from these meetings. As I said earlier, I feel they have been purposely pressuring me to return back to work, so I can only imagine these meetings will be to do the same.

davo10

Questions16 wrote: »

Thanks Emmadilema123, they have not mentioned a company doctor, as of yet.

My weekly phone calls were to update them on my condition, which has been frustrating to be honest, as it's not the kind of illness that has a typical duration, so I don't have much information to update them with, other than any dates for doctor appointments or further tests I have to get.

I don't know what they expect from these meetings. As I said earlier, I feel they have been purposely pressuring me to return back to work, so I can only imagine these meetings will be to do the same.

Depending on your illness, you could inform them that your GP has advised you that the additional stress of these meetings may actually add to your problem and hinder your return to work.

I suspect the requirement to attend the company appointed GP is not far away.

Questions16

Hi PlainP, I didn't actually have any form of holidays away or activities planned for this annual holiday leave, so it's not a case of me not being available.

Without going into personal information, they are aware of the physical limitations my illness has given me, and given that I don't have to see a company doctor yet, there is nothing that can't be said over the phone instead.

Emmadilema123

Questions16 wrote: »

Thanks Emmadilema123, they have not mentioned a company doctor, as of yet.

My weekly phone calls were to update them on my condition, which has been frustrating to be honest, as it's not the kind of illness that has a typical duration, so I don't have much information to update them with, other than any dates for doctor appointments or further tests I have to get.

I don't know what they expect from these meetings. As I said earlier, I feel they have been purposely pressuring me to return back to work, so I can only imagine these meetings will be to do the same.

They are pressuring you to return to work and will probably continue to do so. Does the nature of the illness require a visit/consultation with hospital? Consultants letter would prob hold more weight. Are they paying you while out?

Questions16

I'm waiting on more tests results now. I'm hoping a hospital visit won't be on the cards.

No, I'm not being paid while I'm out. I'm not even full time there.

Wanderer78

Questions16 wrote: »

I'm waiting on more tests results now. I'm hoping a hospital visit won't be on the cards.

No, I'm not being paid while I'm out. I'm not even full time there.

i wouldnt go near the place to be honest, particularly since you're out on sick certs and you dont get paid! its on your time! as far as im aware, you're not insured to be on site when you're out on sick certs. ive seen lads being sent home while out on sick certs due to this.

Emmadilema123

Questions16 wrote: »

I'm waiting on more tests results now. I'm hoping a hospital visit won't be on the cards.

No, I'm not being paid while I'm out. I'm not even full time there.

My place has been known to do this with ppl on long term leave but I would for sure check your contract before you decline. Make sure you have a witness with you if you attend the meetings.

Will the meeting be with HR and your line manager?

Questions16

Thanks Wanderer78, I feel like my manager doesn't even know the legalities of it all!

Questions16

Thanks Emmadilema123.

I have been off for 4 weeks now, and I'm only part time, I barely have any hours there to be honest! My absence certainly won't be detrimental to the business. I just feel like they want me to jump through hoops for them!

As far as I know, it's just supposed to be with the manager this time.

As I said earlier, I don't even know if I will go back there now, I didn't like it there to begin with, this certainly hasn't helped!

Esel

Emmadilema123 wrote: »

My place has been known to do this with ppl on long term leave but I would for sure check your contract before you decline. Make sure you have a witness with you if you attend the meetings.

Will the meeting be with HR and your line manager?

The bit in bold above. Seriously. Someone who can take notes, say nothing, and look serious. But especially take notes.

duffman13

Having had to deal with people on long term sick in the past I would just accept certs and maybe have a monthly/quarterly meeting depending on how long they were out for. Weekly is unreasonable in my opinion but id contact HR or look at your contract to see what the policy is.

Explain to your line manager your happy to go in and meet but you feel weekly is a bit much as a result of your condition but you'll let them know what time suits you. I don't know any managers who have the kind of time to be so anal with someone on long term sick especially if your not costing them money!

B.A._Baracus

Hi Questions16,
Only my two cents (and it doesn't help legally) But it sounds like the company is coming down on you because you are just part-time. In other words you are just "the other guy" in terms of a role. I've been there before myself for what it's worth.

Writings on the wall, man. I honestly wouldn't be thinking "is this legal or not?" - I would be facing the reality that I am excessive fat ready to be trimmed in need be. The bigger picture is more important than the now.

Emmadilema123

Esel wrote: »

The bit in bold above. Seriously. Someone who can take notes, say nothing, and look serious. But especially take notes.

Yes! You never know how these things are going to go or what is going to be said. If you want to take a case for constructive dismissal or unfair dismissal down the road, you will be glad of your witness.

shar01

If you're bringing a witness, let your employer know - preferably in writing. It could get their back up if you just arrive with one. The witness is just that so don't bring someone who'll mouth off and dig a deeper hole for you.

I have to say this sounds very excessive on the part of your employer. Your manager must have feck all to do.

As regards sick leave vs annual, where I work, if you happen to be on certified sick leave at the same time you've booked annual, the sick leave is substituted for the annual and you get to take the annual later.

Best of luck OP

Emmadilema123

shar01 wrote: »

If you're bringing a witness, let your employer know - preferably in writing. It could get their back up if you just arrive with one. The witness is just that so don't bring someone who'll mouth off and dig a deeper hole for you.

I have to say this sounds very excessive on the part of your employer. Your manager must have feck all to do.

As regards sick leave vs annual, where I work, if you happen to be on certified sick leave at the same time you've booked annual, the sick leave is substituted for the annual and you get to take the annual later.

Best of luck OP

In our place it's standard practice to bring a witness so I'm a bit surprised that it isn't everywhere else. It's not a big deal. We would normally be advised to bring one if we want, if attending a formal meeting. Usually just a colleague who is in the office on the day.

If you are certified sick your employee is not legally allowed to take out of your annual leave. Employer can't decide that, it should be the same in any job.

shar01

Emmadilema123 wrote: »

In our place it's standard practice to bring a witness so I'm a bit surprised that it isn't everywhere else. It's not a big deal. We would normally be advised to bring one if we want, if attending a formal meeting. Usually just a colleague who is in the office on the day.

If you are certified sick your employee is not legally allowed to take out of your annual leave. Employer can't decide that, it should be the same in any job.

Same in our place - but it sounds like OP is not being formally written to. Having said that they still have to check their contract so it could be mentioned there.

Asking someone to come into work for a meeting while on certified sick leave is strange. It's like the employer is second guessing a doctor and that could put them on sticky ground. Although from experience, the pettiness/arrogance of some supervisors/managers doesn't surprise me anymore.

Emmadilema123

shar01 wrote: »

Same in our place - but it sounds like OP is not being formally written to. Having said that they still have to check their contract so it could be mentioned there.

Asking someone to come into work for a meeting while on certified sick leave is strange. It's like the employer is second guessing a doctor and that could put them on sticky ground. Although from experience, the pettiness/arrogance of some supervisors/managers doesn't surprise me anymore.

Absolutely. I feel management in this case are on the cusp of starting disciplinary proceedings. Which is also not very rare in my place lol half the department could be on disciplinary at any given time :-P We love rules!

OP I don't think you should make any decisions right now and hold fire. Especially if you are receiving SW payments. You don't want to lose those by quitting. They may put pressure on but would def hear them out before you make that decision. Ask them what the next steps are going to be and make an informed decision.

Imnotthehulk

Emmadilema123 wrote: »

My place has been known to do this with ppl on long term leave but I would for sure check your contract before you decline. Make sure you have a witness with you if you attend the meetings.

Will the meeting be with HR and your line manager?

For all the stick trade unions get, it's occasions like this where they really come in handy. If you're in a union, I would contact them and ask if they have someone available to come with you, at least to the first meeting.

If you can't get (or don't want to bring ) a witness, you could always ask if they mind you recording the meeting on your phone/or a dictaphone. Just so there aren't any misunderstandings ...

Questions16

Thanks so much for all of the responses guys.

I finally found my contract.

It says I am required to meet with my manager once every week, but it never said from what length of absence this should begin from. My manager said it's company policy for the meetings now, which has been 4 weeks into sick leave for me, but there is no mention in my contract of that bit.

If I am out for more than 8 weeks, I need a detailed medical report filled out by my GP, at my own expense, otherwise I can be dismissed or have disciplinary action, and they can make me see their doctor at any time they want, no specification of what stage of absence they can do this from.

In terms of my annual holiday leave, there is nothing about procedure when someone is on sick leave during an annual holiday.

@Shar01 I have had no form of documentation from them, if I miss a phone call, I either have a voice mail or a text message from my manager to call her back, but never any mention of what it is about, so I have nothing for my own record.

In terms of bringing a witness, the office area is strictly for staff only, nobody else is insured to go into that area, and they're realllly strict about that!

uck51js9zml2yt

OP you need to call the Workplace Relations Commission in Carlow for advice

Emmadilema123

Questions16 wrote: »

Thanks so much for all of the responses guys.

I finally found my contract.

It says I am required to meet with my manager once every week, but it never said from what length of absence this should begin from. My manager said it's company policy for the meetings now, which has been 4 weeks into sick leave for me, but there is no mention in my contract of that bit.

If I am out for more than 8 weeks, I need a detailed medical report filled out by my GP, at my own expense, otherwise I can be dismissed or have disciplinary action, and they can make me see their doctor at any time they want, no specification of what stage of absence they can do this from.

In terms of my annual holiday leave, there is nothing about procedure when someone is on sick leave during an annual holiday.

@Shar01 I have had no form of documentation from them, if I miss a phone call, I either have a voice mail or a text message from my manager to call her back, but never any mention of what it is about, so I have nothing for my own record.

In terms of bringing a witness, the office area is strictly for staff only, nobody else is insured to go into that area, and they're realllly strict about that!

Our place us the same about bringing people into the work space. Another colleague can come with you though. That would be the norm were I work.

Best of luck with everything and keep us posted on how you get on.

shar01

Thanks for the up-date re contract OP.

As per tatranska's post, give the WRC a buzz.

I can totally understand an employer wanting an employee to keep in touch while on sick leave but actual meetings - I know I can be a bit dense sometimes but that doesn't sit right.

Best of luck OP.

Senna

This is absolutely ridiculous, the weekly doctors certificate is the weekly update. If there is a change in your condition, it will be wrote on it. You certainly do not need to go to a weekly meeting, I can't believe they actually included it in your contract, just goes to show how these contracts are never checked by people who actually have a background in employment legislation.
They can require you to visit a doctor of their choice but that is it. Op, you sound like you are going to leave, so I would tell them you will email a weekly update on your condition and ignore all other contact unless it's for the company doctor.

Shelflife

Im with Senna on this one. If you are certified sick you do not have to attend a meeting, are they going to pay you to attend ? cover your travel costs ?

I cant see how that is legal to force someone from their sick bed to attend a meeting at the work place.

Certs will suffice and if they are not happy with that they can ask you to attend a doctor of their choosing.

Questions16

Thanks guys.

I've honestly spent more time thinking about what they're going to want from me next, or worried about calling and not having any information to update them with, when I should be focused on getting well again.

Everything is on their terms, the day I have to call them, the specific time they want to be called at, and my manager is also expecting another call from me tomorrow so she can tell me what day suits her for the meeting.

After a couple of week off, my manager wanted me to speak to my doctor just to find out how long he thinks I'll be off for, so I could let her know. She also brought up recruiting someone else in the meantime, if I was going to be out for much longer.

Absolutely no consideration for the sick person! I really shouldn't be surprised though.

I already have a notice of resignation drafted, haven't gotten as far as printing it yet, but it's looking likely.

bobbysands81

PlainP wrote: »

To me it sounds like you are pis$ed off that you have to come into the meeting as you will be on holidays, but if you are sick you're not going to be on holidays.

So you should be available for the meeting?!

If someone is out of work on sick leave there is nothing wrong with a bit of relaxation or recharging the batteries by way of a holiday to get them back on their feet.

Any worker experiencing work related stress, a broken leg, a life threatening illness, cancer etc. could benefit from a holiday to help get them back on their feet.

Boskowski

Questions16 wrote: »

Thanks guys.

I've honestly spent more time thinking about what they're going to want from me next, or worried about calling and not having any information to update them with, when I should be focused on getting well again.

Everything is on their terms, the day I have to call them, the specific time they want to be called at, and my manager is also expecting another call from me tomorrow so she can tell me what day suits her for the meeting.

After a couple of week off, my manager wanted me to speak to my doctor just to find out how long he thinks I'll be off for, so I could let her know. She also brought up recruiting someone else in the meantime, if I was going to be out for much longer.

Absolutely no consideration for the sick person! I really shouldn't be surprised though.

I already have a notice of resignation drafted, haven't gotten as far as printing it yet, but it's looking likely.

Ah come on, try to look at it from the other side. You're out for legitimate reasons no doubt but you're still out and business does go on and the work needs to be covered. Of course they want to know as much as they can on how long you're going to be absent or not. Doesn't mean they don't care which they probably don't as long as its not serious but hey its a work relationship not a best buddies club.

bobbysands81

Questions16 wrote: »

I have been working there for one year from the start of this month.

I'd have to root out my contract to check properly, but my manager told me that I had to call once a week for the duration of my absence, on top of getting medical certificates of course. She never mentioned anything about switching to meetings being company policy or at what stage they would have to begin.

I am also aware that my condition has been discussed among the staff.

To be honest, I am not even sure I want to return there now.

I feel they have purposely been putting pressure on me to return, once again I won't go into detail to be cautious.

Thank you for your advice, davo10.

Calling once a week with your medical certs really isn't that bad IF you are medically fit to do so.

However, your employer has a health and well-being responsibility to you and it looks like they're ignoring it to a certain extent.

Normal practice would be that you provide the weekly certs from your Doctor but sending them in by post should be enough.

Your employer should be ringing you to check on your well-being not you ringing them as a form of keeping an eye on you.

Your illness should be confidential between yourself and your HR Dept, this should not be a matter of discussion amongst other staff.

Under no circumstances would I attend a meeting in work, you have been certified unfit to attend work, if something happened you whilst on the premises you are not insured.

Some strange procedures in place in this company.

Questions16

Boskowski wrote: »

Ah come on, try to look at it from the other side. You're out for legitimate reasons no doubt but you're still out and business does go on and the work needs to be covered. Of course they want to know as much as they can on how long you're going to be absent or not. Doesn't mean they don't care which they probably don't as long as its not serious but hey its a work relationship not a best buddies club.

It's an incredibly quiet time of year in my workplace, there's far more staff on than is needed, everyone's contracted minimum hours are just being met. There's several staff members constantly asking for more hours, so the work being covered is not an issue for them currently. My weekly hours are a mere 8.

Of course they don't care, it's a business, they care about making money, and nothing else.
I said consideration, not care, it's not normal practice to want so much from someone out sick, who is already complying with what they want, and following regular absence protocol, ie medical certificates.

uck51js9zml2yt

Have you phoned the WTC ?
If you haven't , it's your next call.

Mrs OBumble

Questions16 wrote: »

Absolutely no consideration for the sick person! I really shouldn't be surprised though.

Under Irish law, I don't believe there's actually requirement to have consideration for someone who cannnot fulfil their employement contract for whatever reason - except for jury duty and serving with the Defence reserve. There may be some other exceptions I don't know about - but I'm 99.99% sickness isn't one of them.

Most employers do have some degree of consideration, and allow at least unpaid sick leave, bereavement leave, etc.

Possily the law-makers didn't even consider that an employer would put a dumb clause like that "You must meet with us every week even when you're sick" into their employment contracts.

But if consideration is not required, then there are some employers (bad ones - or also multi-nationals who follow the letter of the law exactly in every country where they operate) who will not do it.

Right now, your choices are either to play along, let it go (resign), or to take a complaint to Workplace Relations.