Managing and maintaining distance with toxic sister - need a bit of help

orthsquel

Hi guys, I need a bit of help. So a while back I decided to create lots of distance between myself and my sister because she is an incredibly toxic person. And it's worked to a point, however, a few things have come up over the last few months such as she rings asking how I am but with her own agenda in borrowing money or whatever, or wants to come over to "chat" (because she's bored/lonely/wants a favour/wants advice/has no money for specific food item that she wants to take from me/or some other hidden motive and take up 3 hours of my time and often won't leave even when I suggest she should do or tell her to). I've got a bit soft with her and am falling back into the trap of being subject to her toxicity.

Yesterday is an example: she rang, asked how I am and if things are ok and then launched into a whine about how X and Y is going badly, and launched into further some tangent going in her life that I knew nothing about but I knew she was going to hit me up for a favour for related to... except that when I started to question her about it she basically has a scam up her sleeve on something and I'm completely against it and don't like at all what she is doing.

What started out as a normal conversation resulted in her talking over me because I was criticising what she intended to do and she wouldn't listen at all to any points I was making (which were valid) and basically she did the equivalent of sticking her fingers in her ears going laalaaalaaa I can't hear you. Now she was ringing obviously for some sympathy for her whine and support for what she was doing (which I am dead set against) but got quite abusive towards me on the phone and tried her best to drag me into being equally abusive back. She somehow ended the call (because she didn't like the fact I was criticising her rather delusional plan or anything I had to say that was truthful and matter of fact surrounding the plan i.e. she couldn't handle being told no, being told she was wrong, that her information was incorrect) and I have no intention of contacting her. I know that she is not going to contact me, in fact, because of the way things went on the phone yesterday I know I won't hear or see her for at least 1 week.... and she will pretend that the conversation never happened and that she never said any of the nasty things she did. I know this because this happened not too long ago where she said in person and at a later stage over the phone (two separate occasions) some very nasty things about me to me that made me feel really unhappy about myself and she pretended that those conversations basically never happened.

I've found recently she is determined to goad me into getting sucked back into all her dramas which I cut and pulled myself away from. I really really don't want to get sucked back in, in fact I've undertaken the decision today to distance myself again from her as a result of the conversation yesterday and hopefully eventually cut ties completely.

I just don't know how I can prevent myself getting sucked in right now because I'm living in the family home (moving not an option at present, in the future, hopefully), parents often invite her over, and she is motivated by self centeredness to always talk about herself even when you've indicated no interest and told her so. How do I manage the boundaries? It seems to fall on deaf ears and she's always keen to play the victim card and has a vicious temper and always looks to bring you down to her level. The other side of it too is that she has been in toxic relationships with friends and exs so she knows a thing or two about this area of toxic people but doesn't seem to understand how toxic she herself is.

I'm really, really tired and fed up with trying my best to distance myself from her and then she tries and tries to undo all that. I'm also unhappy with the fact that when she is abusive towards me (and she got really unhappy when people were once abusive towards her) that she has no conscience about it and seems to be apathetic in general and basically will not apologise afterwards thinking it's all a bit harsh to have said or anything like that..... I'm the opposite I've been wondering ever since was I being too mean or harsh with her, have I upset her until earlier when I copped on she wouldn't give it a moment's thought!

Where can I go with all of this to really get out of her clutches? At this point where I know she won't talk to me (and tbh I want the peace and quiet, so I don't particularly care she's not talking to me) am I just best leaving things alone or should I bring up her behaviour of abuse towards me when we next are talking? Or am I just better off creating as much distance as possible for my own peace of mind? How can I maintain it long term when she tries to always invade my life in her attempts to suck me into her drama?

In a situation like this for example: She's invited over for dinner by folks, afterwards myself and my dad are usually doing the washing up, she will often "hang around" and start harping on about specific things that only matter to her of her personal life which all of us have no interest in knowing about that she is generally obsessed about talking to anyone and everyone about but that we've all heard thousands of times over before that she never acts on (despite the fact we have all given her support down the years on) and often there's a new twist in the story of some other semi-related aspect that has nothing got to do with any before that she is currently obsessing over (in a very unhealthy way but she won't listen to us about that unhealthy obsession) and even when for example, my dad or I tell her we have no interest, or are watching e.g. the match or whatever, or are talking between our selves, she will interrupt and insist on being heard. And that causes a lot of tension where my dad is easily goaded into reacting negatively and there can be an explosion of tempers because she refuses to shut up or understand that we are not interested in hearing about it. How can I best deal with situations like this, when she is refusing to acknowledge my or my dad's boundary regarding her behaviour?

In general, I do need a bit of guidance/advice about where I should be going from here in the process of cutting ties with my toxic sister. Even a few scripted responses I can use that work that others in this situation have used and had success with would be a plus, because I don't think I have a good handle on this as much as I thought! I just find it hard to keep her at bay and out of my life when she works - it feels - twice harder to invade my life yet I feel I do nothing to encourage it such as I'm fairly short in responses with her, I don't share information about what's going on in my life (because I know she's not genuinely interested to know anyway) and I generally don't interact with her, I don't text or call her, don't engage on social media with her, don't offer advice or help on things yet I still feel she has the upper hand in invading my life when it suits her agenda because she pushes things in a way that I don't think I am handling at all.

edited to add: she has got better to some extent with understanding personal boundaries for example, when I once pretended I wasn't home, she still came over to the house, rang the house phone several times, rang the doorbell several times, checked all the doors and windows looking in to see if anyone is home..... but she has admitted to often driving by to see if anyone was home too. This apparently she does regularly, as she often drops in unexpected and uninvited on my folks (and me) usually to tell us about whatever the latest drama is (that none of us want to hear); but she had got cuter on this in ringing ahead, such as recently when my folks were away, she rang me while she was driving leaving a shopping centre car park to drop in on me to use the loo. I said no and I argued the logic of it all since she was in a shopping centre car park to just re-park and go to the loo there and that to get to the house she would be going the wrong way for her house and into the traffic jam, and that anyway to go to her house she'd pass another shopping centre 2 minutes along the route and could stop there. She was determined to drop in on me but eventually got in a huff and said she'd just go home! I felt I was being mean, but I knew she had a specific motive and reason to dropping in. I've tried in the past to be involved with her in different ways and make plans as sisters doing stuff together but she's unreliable and never sticks to plans, always late and generally disrespectful about it so I just don't bother anymore with that either. I'm at a bit of a loss how to handle her now tbh, even in creating more distance and cutting her out because it hasn't been as effective and maybe I've let myself down on that side of things.

ahnow

Hi op, that sounds like a nightmare!
If you want to reduce contact, have some sort of excuse always at the ready. If you don't want to talk to her on the phone any more, you could always reduce the contact to texting. That way you can terminate the conversation whenever you want, and it gives you control over the situation. If she's ringing you, don't feel guilty about not answering it, you can always say you were busy.
You don't owe her anything, always try to remember that, and that helps with the guilt.
If she calls to the house, you could ignore her, or have your excuses ready-you're heading out to meet someone, going to the shops, have stuff to do and now is not a good time. If she pushes it, with the doorbell, checking windows etc, tell her that is inappropriate, and that you no longer want her to call unexpectedly to your house because it eats into your time etc. Set firm boundaries, and explain explicitly want you want, and why. That way it's not a personal attack on her, but you get your needs explained clearly.
If you get drawn into conflict with her, she'll probably try and get personal with you, try not to engage with it. Stick to your original assertion, and do not address the comments she is making. This way you keep it on track, and firmly within your boundaries. If it continues, then you cut it off. Simply, if you are going to continue talking to me like this i have to finish the conversation, etc
Same for if youre having a conversation with your parents and she interrupts. Tell her that you are watching the match/already having a conversation, and to please not interrupt. If it continues, repeat.
If you have to meet her, you can do it on neutral ground, not hers or your house, and always have an "engagement" to get to after it so you can meet her for a limited time, then leave when you want. This gives you control to manage the relationship. It's hard, but it's doable.

There's a great book called "A woman in your own right" about assertion techniques. I recommend it!
If she's too much to handle right now, visiting the parents alone is the ticket for now to avoid her entirely.
Best of luck!

Big Bag of Chips

Stop answering the phone to her. Keep texts to a minimum. When she visits your parents either go out, or make non committal noises to her conversations. Be "busy" more.

She is who she is. She has her ideas and opinions on the way of the world. You will never reason with her.

So stop trying.

SB_Part2

Why did you even bother criticising her? You know the reaction you're going to get. Just say "hmmm" "yeh" "ok" and don't involve yourself.

Jerome77

Have gone through something similar. I suggest you do the following, it has worked for me after years of trying.

Block her number, on landline and phone

Never acknowledge her again

Do not go to any function she will be at.

You may be disliked for this, and people may say this person is family etc etc. YOU CANNOT please everyone and from what I have read your mental health and wellbeing will deteriorate as she sucks the life out of you. I took it to another step, if anyone did not support me and my decision I have nothing to do with them.

Best of luck, I am 4 months "clean" of family toxicity and have never felt better.

rainbowtrout

If she's ringing you, you don't have to answer. If she's ringing the landline and starts to go down the route of whining about some drama, just say 'Sorry gotta go' and hang up. Don't wait to engage or get a response, just end the call.

She knows how much she can get away with based on your actions. Follow through, just hang up. Keep doing it.

To use your example about her insisting calling to your house to use the toilet. Don't engage. Just say 'Sorry won't be here' and hang up. Don't engage in any further conversation. She's playing on your politeness. By engaging with her, even if it is to argue back or to tell her you're not interested, you're showing her that you are listening so she will keep going.

If she keeps harping on about a drama when she's called round for dinner and you're watching tv, just ignore her. Don't even commit to grunting at her. She'll only learn if you're consistent and don't let her push your boundaries.

orthsquel

Thank you all for replying. I think rainbowtrout hit on something that hadn't really occurred to me which is

She's playing on your politeness

I can understand feelings of guilt and anger but I hadn't fully realised this aspect of her capitalising on my own basic politeness but you're completely right about that.

Jerome, I had always hoped that it would never fully come to that, except when perhaps in the future when my parents have passed away but I have been hoping that when my own personal circumstances have changed that allows for me to be considerably less accessible to my sister ...it would be somewhat on a similar stance e.g. if I moved to another part of the country I had already intended that I would set a precedent immediately that she was not welcome to drop by (she wouldn't have my address then) and that not having to engage with her would be easier because of physical distance.

SB Part2, the only reason it went down that route of criticising her was because what she was on about provoked a strong response from me probably more so because I know people involved in that specific area that I have come to care about and fear that someone like my sister with her scam will do more harm for others and ability to access the same fund because of her selfishness. It was stupid of me to react but I was also caught off guard, despite being wary at the start. You know the way someone can just word vomit? and in somewhere you catch something that is glossed over and you just catch it and rewind and go wtf was that? It's a bit like that.

Big Bag of Chips, I know she will never change and I think removing myself from the situation and not engaging/responding is probably best

Ahnow, thank you I will do (and try and do) those things, but definitely will look up that book. I think perhaps too that is a key issue - I lack assertiveness in dealing with her and that is something I need to focus and work on.

rainbowtrout

The first few times of saying no and being assertive with her will be difficult, but that is because there is an established dynamic where she draws you into arguments and drama and forces you to engage and listen, and then when she's said nasty things to you, turns it around and makes you feel like you're the one in the wrong and have been mean to her.

Her actions are designed to make you feel bad. You've said it twice in your OP; that 'maybe I was a bit mean to her' even though she's said nasty things to you and won't acknowledge that she's said them or apologise for them. The fact that she won't acknowledge them means that she gets to continue to behave like that and get away with it. There are no consequences for her bad behaviour. But you feel bad for your actions, even though you've done nothing wrong.

I'm guessing that when she rings, she domineers the conversation with idle chit chat and then gets to why she's really calling. As you described in the last conversation she kept talking over you.

Perhaps next time she calls, which will be in the next week or two after she believes things have cooled down, don't wait passively for the conversation to go down it's usual path, take control from the off, 'Oh, are you calling to apologise for the nasty things you said last week?' Presumably, she'll deny it as usual. Just cut her off straight away when she dives into 'I never said...' and talk over her like she would do to you, don't get into an argument, don't raise your voice, just go 'That's grand so' as non-committal as talking to a person who just rang a wrong number and hang up. You get the last word. You control how you engage with her and you choose when to end the conversation, not her. You don't get drawn into an argument which provides the drama she thrives on.

Skibunny77

I wouldn't revisit or revise old arguments with her, it's entirely pointless, she won't change. Simply follow the good advice you have been given and disengage from conversation and contact. She thrives on conflict, drama and lengthy conversations. Remain firm, disengage. If needs be, leave the room and go somewhere private. Don't wait for her to agree with you, end calls, conversations as her tactic will simply be to argue and continue to engage you.

intheclouds

Im estranged from a toxic sibling.

Life is much nicer without him in it. He truly had no sense of boundaries, personal space, privacy etc...

Before I estranged myself fully from him I detached from him. Never answered calls or texts, never initiated calls or texts. If we were in the same room and he began to harp on I would either leave the room or just not engage. Once he called round to me and put his head in an open window, thus "catching" me in, at which point he invited himself in and simply would not leave. I was making my dinner at the time so I asked him to leave so I could eat, he continued to stand there, so I sat down and ate it and just waited for him to go while he kept up a constant stream of chatter and trying to engage me. It was shortly after that I disengaged fully.

Its just not worth it.

SB_Part2

orthsquel wrote: »

SB Part2, the only reason it went down that route of criticising her was because what she was on about provoked a strong response from me probably more so because I know people involved in that specific area that I have come to care about and fear that someone like my sister with her scam will do more harm for others and ability to access the same fund because of her selfishness. It was stupid of me to react but I was also caught off guard, despite being wary at the start. You know the way someone can just word vomit? and in somewhere you catch something that is glossed over and you just catch it and rewind and go wtf was that? It's a bit like that.

There's no point in justifying why you criticised her. She got the reaction out of you she was probably looking for. You played right into her hands.

Just ignore her.

Big Bag of Chips

People like your sister thrive on arguments and confrontation and always being right. So no matter what you say, she will argue with it. Even if you start agreeing with her, she will then push the argument further. She will always have the last day. She will always know more about a topic than you do and she will ALWAYS push her point.

She won't just be doing it with you, either, she does it with everyone.

Others will have their way of dealing with her you come up with yours, but if you're looking to "maintain distance" then that can only be done by putting actually distance between you. Be that physical, or by telephone etc. You cannot maintain a distance from her if you are in contact.

You don't have to be rude. You don't have to pull her up anything (it hasn't gone your way, ever, why would that change?) Just don't get involved. Don't answer your phone. If you answer the house phone tell her you're on the way out... If she starts something just say "yeah, yeah, hmm, sorry, I really have to go, talk to you later, ok". And then hang up. You don't have to explain why you're busy.. just that you're busy

orthsquel

Thank you all so much! tbh it's an eye opener to realise how much I have let this go... when I thought I had it better under control. I acknowledge that it is easy for me to excuse her behaviour and even justify my own reactions and everyone's right, I really shouldn't be doing that. But I really understand what everyone's posted here, and I think probably a really good idea for me would be to print off the thread (if nobody minds) just for my own use to stick up on a wall and reinforce on a daily (or regular) basis all the points here. Otherwise I feel I'll just forget about it and be back here again should it all happen again, and I don't want that (not because of the advice and opinion, but because I want to be in a better situation). I'd just like to have something to focus on if I find that despite it all, I play into her hands again, so I can not feel bad over it and just move on quicker than I have this time... as I spent a bit too much time being preoccupied about it in thought and emotion than I felt was healthy!

tbh I feel a lot better and more confident because of all of ye, so thank you very much for taking the time to read (an essay, but honestly I needed to get it off my chest!) and respond.

December2012

Don't print off the thread. She has no boundaries, may be a snooper and will find it.

Don't answer phone calls or texts.

Don't try to change her or correct her, it is rising to her.

Don't get involved if your parents overreact. That's up to them to control, not you.

LegacyUser

I wouldn't say your sister is playing off your politeness. I would say though that she is too self absorbed to care about anyone else but herself.


Been there, done that and wore the T-shirt with a negative sibling. I came in to say that it's a possibility your sister may not take to kindly to a new routine of you not answering your phone or answering and saying that you are busy (whether true or not to avoid her). It won't happen just yet if at all. Just so that you are aware and on the ball. It might take on the shape of her texting you non-stop or texting you abuse or texting you with accusations or what not or texting you crazy. Or she might even turn up on your doorstep shouting abuse. If it happens it will be very important not to respond to anything. She's only be looking for a reaction. Don't give her that. Don't be afraid to get the Gardai involved if you have to.