Crime in Ireland before the 1970s

What sort of crime was there in Ireland before the emergence of drug gangs from the 1980s on, I read a piece that said in the 1950s and 1960s Mountjoy was only half full and that Ireland has little crime. Are drugs the rout cause of serious crime( not all crime ) in Ireland, is the rise in crime related to the huge unemployment problems and related social problems of the 1980s, if that is so it would mean the present crime gangs emerged because of the policies adopted by the government in the 1970s and 1980s or are there other explanations.

In other words how did Ireland go from a low almost no crime society to the society we have today in the space of one generation.

me_irl

Not sure, but a bit of research might help.

http://archive.irishnewsarchive.com/Olive/APA/INA.Edu/Default.aspx#panel=browse

The King of Moo

Just theft of USA-Biscuit tins with money from GAA fundraisers in them, usually committed by Protestant blow-ins with beards.

Forgot about the emergence of paramilitary gangs that has to be a factor as well.

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

In other words how did Ireland go from a low almost no crime society to the society we have today in the space of one generation.

I would suspect crime like child abuse, physical and sexual, and domestic violence were rampant.

The types of crime may have changed alright. But wouldn't say there was almost no crime, or draw any conclusions from the low imprisonment rates. Sentences now for violent crime are far longer for starters.

The Backwards Man

Butter smuggling was a big one that we could see returning.

Joe prim

I was personally involved with a group of organised orchard robbers,more for the thrill than the apples, but I had to get out when they moved into doing knick-knacks, it was just too risky...

I remember seeing on the 2000 documentary "Seven Ages" that Ireland had low levels of crime in the 1950s and that gardai would spend days on end doing nothing much.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I remember seeing on the 2000 documentary "Seven Ages" that Ireland had low levels of crime in the 1950s and that gardai would spend days on end doing nothing much.

I'd agree that they did nothing much.

But disagree with the idea that that's because the crime rate was low. It was because some incredibly horrific crime was simply not regarded as such, it went on behind closed doors, it involved people whose place in society meant they were above the law etc. etc. Corruption and financial crime was rampant, I suspect only a clown paid his taxes in those days. Who didn't drive home half cut at that time?

super_furry

Giving cheek to a priest was a big one.

Dyr

Deleted User wrote: »

I remember seeing on the 2000 documentary "Seven Ages" that Ireland had low levels of crime in the 1950s and that gardai would spend days on end doing nothing much.

Hard work ignoring all those rapey priests though

Even the crime in '50s ireland was ****e

Winterlong

If you have a look through the prison registers on findmypast it seems that most crimes were larceny and drunkenness and fighting. It covers the period from the early 1800s to 1924.
Kids of a very young age got locked up for a long time for stealing food.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd agree that they did nothing much.

But disagree with the idea that that's because the crime rate was low. It was because some incredibly horrific crime was simply not regarded as such, it went on behind closed doors, it involved people whose place in society meant they were above the law etc. etc. Corruption and financial crime was rampant, I suspect only a clown paid his taxes in those days. Who didn't drive home half cut at that time?

Not disagreeing with you as such but in the 1950s car ownership would have been very low, I don't know about tax but there was rates which had to be paid, while violence against women and children was not take as seriously as today, you can read account of someone being fined five shilling for sexual abuse of a child, how would you know if it was rampant.

Permabear

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ScumLord

It was a very different country back then. I've heard stories of the good honest people of a town dragging bad people out of their homes and getting beat out of town. The local guard would often be on the side of his friends rather than justice, women could be practically treated like slaves, children were beat into submission.

Most people probably just didn't think that much about drugs until the Americans made such a big deal out of promoting the war on drugs. But drugs were available.

Permabear

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ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

We had more payroll robberies and armed shop, bank, post office, robberies in the past . Cash was king. Burglaries were fair widespread pre 70s as sell. Convictions weren't as frequent as nowadays as forensics weren't as advanced and we had no CCTV.

ScumLord

ScumLord wrote: »

It was a very different country back then.

This sums it up. Cultural norms constantly change. The life and norms of 1996 are quite different to those of 2016, and those of 1976 are very removed from us indeed. This thread I came across one day illustrates how quickly things change: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056724329/7

It's impossible to tell how to norms of today will be viewed by people in 2050 - cultural norms could shift so much that eating meat is universally considered horrific, to pick one easy-to-think-of example.

So stuff that we would consider to be a horrible crime today was not thought of in the same way by people in the past. I read before that slavery was a moral improvement by mankind when they ceased to kill and eat those they conquered and instead allowed them to live and work for them.

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

...how would you know if it was rampant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_to_Inquire_into_Child_Abuse

The Report concluded that abuse was systemic and endemic.

I think we all suspect it did not stop at the gates of the institutions.

Also, with the chance of getting abuse, they were people who travelled around the country, getting work here & there, fixing pots & pans etc
A lot of that way of life has died now, more machinery less need for people, also things are not repaired how they once were.
So a huge number of people that depended on those transient jobs, lost their way of life. Subsequently many of them fell into crime as a means to make money.

the evasion_kid

Maybe the odd drunk stealing a bike on the way home..

Winterlong

Deleted User wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_to_Inquire_into_Child_Abuse

The Report concluded that abuse was systemic and endemic.

I think we all suspect it did not stop at the gates of the institutions.

Systemic and endemic in the insitutions, not rampant in society.

Winterlong

Winterlong wrote: »

Systemic and endemic in the insitutions, not rampant in society.

Well that's all Judge Ryan could report on, they were the terms of reference. It was not an enquiry into society.

One in Four. The name of the charity is drawn from the numbers of victims of sexual abuse here. Now they could be wrong, or we could accept that sexual abuse happened across society and it certainly was not confined to institutions.

Trent Houseboat

I'd imagine any crimes that could make the local Fianna Fail family/'RA chief/garda superintendent/priest/GAA star/banker/hotelier/Bull McCabe look bad went unreported. Or reported and not investigated.

D0NNELLY

just the forced wholesale export of children to the colonies, then for a bit of side action there was the supply of underage boarded labour into workhouses, then for a bit of side action onto the side action, there was the molestation of the kids lucky enough to be left with their families..

Though none of that was seen to be against the law at the time, so should be probably discounted.

D0NNELLY

Winterlong wrote: »

Systemic and endemic in the insitutions, not rampant in society.

was and still is

Del2005

bubblypop wrote: »

Also, with the chance of getting abuse, they were people who travelled around the country, getting work here & there, fixing pots & pans etc
A lot of that way of life has died now, more machinery less need for people, also things are not repaired how they once were.
So a huge number of people that depended on those transient jobs, lost their way of life. Subsequently many of them fell into crime as a means to make money.

So if I loose my job it's OK to resort to crime instead of getting a different job. Cool!

Permabear

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Herb Powell

Crime was invented in 1972, everyone knows that

fryup

Donkey theft was rife

rufus_firefly

Herb Powell wrote: »

Crime was invented in 1972, everyone knows that

There were Dublin crime gangs robbing banks in the 1960s .

Muahahaha

For some women living with alcoholic abusing husbands life in Ireland was absolutely horrific. The husband would barely give her a penny to feed the household and spend most of it on drink, then get home and beat the crap out of his wife. This was common enough in the 70's and 80's but the Gardai didn't see it as a crime, more like a man's wife was his property to do with whatever he felt, rape or beatings, or both together.

McSavage got it pretty spot on with his sketch on domestic disputes and how Gardai dealt with it in the past

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLey3e3JsridulKmyiXa5DN0kErlOBoO4l

RDM_83 again

Deleted User wrote: »

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Been told by somebody fairly knowledgeable in the area that the 1 in 4 figure is something just picked out of a hat, not saying there wasn't high rates.

Actually even just looking at their website quickly shows some misrepresentation

In Ireland research has shown that one in four children (27%) will experience sexual abuse before the age of 18

Any normal reading of this would take it that they are talking about children in Ireland today (what other group could they be referring to), yet the studies they link to in the bottom are either historic inquiries or a report that only interviews adults (so historic also).

Permabear wrote: »

Kinsey in 1953 wrote that, “it is difficult to understand why a child, except for its cultural conditioning, should be disturbed at having its genitalia touched.”

Kinsey was a bit of a perv though who brought his own personality/kinks into his research and was either a very poor scientist or a very bad one (look at his sampling methodology and the errors deliberate or otherwise).
The sooner he is buried as a source the better.

Arsemageddon

Ireland's official crime statistics from the foundation of the state onward are very misleading. Ireland incarcerated an enormous number of people who were perceived as being troublesome in psychiatric institutions for indefinite periods. These facilities had high mortality rates, TB was a major killer. From memory there was an average of 20,000 in this system people per annum during the 1950s & 60's which gave Ireland the highest incarceration rate in the world at the time. Though somewhat similar, these institutions were separate from and are generally less known about than the Magdalene Laundries.

The Gardaí didn't deal with crime by resorting to the legal process. The best known Guard in the country was 'Lugs' Brannigan who was renowned for settling matters out of court using his fists.

Also, the very high level of emigration acted as a safety valve for Irish society as many of the poorest in Ireland left the country. A significant number of these émigrés became involved in serious crime in both the US and UK.

For any fans of Peaky Blinders there were parallels in the Animal Gangs that engaged in turf wars with each other from the 30s to the 50s
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/the-animals-who-prowled-1930s-dublin-26878497.html