Could Dublin support another gay bar?

wakka12

I feel like theres not really that great a selection of gay nightlife venues in dublin really. As far as I know theres mostly just the George and Pantibar which seem to be by the far the largest venues. Ive never gotten to visit the Front Lounge I tried twice but I was too young to get in, maybe it was the nights I was there I don't know.
Ive also been to Prhomo which was pretty cool but small.
I cant think of any other venues .
I missed WAR and the dragon, wasnt into clubbing when they were still open.
But i think the simply massive queues on pride day shows there is a market for more gay venues. I think its even becoming popular for straight girls to go to gay clubs so that increases the market too. And as Ireland became more liberal the lgbt community has grown in size.
So I think a 4th full time gay venue could really thrive somewhere in dublin city centre.

reason vs religion

I think for every straight girl going to a gay club, several more LGBT's are now comfortable going elsewhere. For that reason, I think another dedicated LGBT venue is not necessarily sustainable. But there are several gay nights on top of Prhomo: Mother, Sweat, Thirst, Euphoria, Subday Social, **** and I think ones at Break for the Border and Turk's Head too.

wakka12

reason vs religion wrote: »

I think for every straight girl going to a gay club, several more LGBT's are now comfortable going elsewhere. For that reason, I think another dedicated LGBT venue is not necessarily sustainable. But there are several gay nights on top of Prhomo: Mother, Sweat, Thirst, Euphoria, Subday Social, **** and I think ones at Break for the Border and Turk's Head too.

Yeh I was just thinking that after I posted. Clubs like the Academy and Workmans arent even gay clubs and have no specifically gay oriented nights yet you'll always see loads of gay and lesbian couples making out at them any night of the week

reason vs religion

wakka12 wrote: »

Yeh I was just thinking that after I posted. Clubs like the Academy and Workmans arent even gay clubs and have no specifically gay oriented nights yet you'll always see loads of gay and lesbian couples making out at them any night of the week

Yeah, Workman's is as gay-friendly as it gets before you're obliged to hang a rainbow flag outside!

Another obvious factor is that Grindr allows for arranging sexual encounters, further reducing the need to go to a club specifically because of the high concentration of people with same sexuality as you.

wakka12

reason vs religion wrote: »

Yeah, Workman's is as gay-friendly as it gets before you're obliged to hang a rainbow flag outside!

Another obvious factor is that Grindr allows for arranging sexual encounters, further reducing the need to go to a club specifically because of the high concentration of people with same sexuality as you.

Yeh exactly. I don't know, I still like gay clubs though ,you know, just going somewhere where you know all the guys are going to be gay? Like yeh gay friendly clubs are good but its still hard to get with a guy and what if you're looking at a guy you like and he's straight and its just awkward. I don't know I just think 3 gay clubs is quite a limited amount for a city of over 1 million people! Just some more variety would be nice. A gay club would with a dance floor is quite lacking in Dublin I would say! Would be nice

Strong Life in Dublin

wakka12 wrote: »

And as Ireland became more liberal the lgbt community has grown in size.

I disagree with this, in my opinion if a city is more gay friendly then it needs less gay bars not more. Why segregate people?

This is my option as a straight man

reason vs religion

wakka12 wrote: »

Yeh exactly. I don't know, I still like gay clubs though ,you know, just going somewhere where you know all the guys are going to be gay? Like yeh gay friendly clubs are good but its still hard to get with a guy and what if you're looking at a guy you like and he's straight and its just awkward. I don't know I just think 3 gay clubs is quite a limited amount for a city of over 1 million people! Just some more variety would be nice. A gay club would with a dance floor is quite lacking in Dublin I would say! Would be nice

I do agree: it's really nice, when you've had a run of straight clubs, to return to the familiarity and wealth-of-opportunity of a gay club! But I think I prefer individual nights for that than a gay club, which tend to be stereotypically...gay.

wakka12

Strong Life in Dublin wrote: »

I disagree with this, in my opinion if a city is more gay friendly then it needs less gay bars not more. Why segregate people?

This is my option as a straight man

Its not segregating in the negative sense of the word, its just putting lgbt people together so they have a better chance of finding partners as its difficult in mostly straight bars as you don't know who's gay! Also New york and London among many others are exceptionally cosmopolitan and gay friendly cities and yet theres a plethora of venues bars and clubs catering mostly to gay people.

Annasopra

Yeah I like the idea of bars being open to everyone but

A It's not easy to chat people up because it's much more difficult to work out who is gay, who is not
B There is still danger (albeit reduced a lot) of bad reactions to chatting people up or displaying affection

I really don't see choosing to socialise in lgbt venues as segregation at all. It's a social space where you can meet people you have something in common with. It's not enforced from the outside like segregation is.

J_E

Strong Life in Dublin wrote: »

I disagree with this, in my opinion if a city is more gay friendly then it needs less gay bars not more. Why segregate people?

This is my option as a straight man

You have to see it from the perspective of a gay guy/girl - when you're in a friendly/mixed place, you don't know who you can go for and who you can't, who will respond positively or who will give you a nasty snap back ('no homo' bros in particular). Even if a place is known as 'friendly' it doesn't mean that everyone there necessarily is. A gay bar is just a great space where you don't even have to worry about it - however, I don't like how places like The George have become a new spot for straight folk to feel alternative, it just makes it a little more problematic for the rest of us, and there have been some nasty flickers of homophobia from some straight visitors to the club who were approached by someone of the same sex. Not even going into the issues then that trans/queer folk face, a gay bar is just generally a much safer place to be. It's no more harmful than having a rock bar vs a general music venue, the key thing is offering the choice.

Hate to be pessimistic, but as a whole, Dublin and Ireland are still a long way from being a truly gay friendly place all-around.

newacc2015

Not at all. Dublin has a serious lack of young 25-35 guys. I know so many young Irish LGBT people living and working abroad. You can go to the George and Pantibar any weekend and see how few young Irish guys are there. There is a whole generation living abroad. I was in the George midweek last week and there was literally about 20 people in the bar, while there was about 10 staff. If you go before 10 on a Saturday, it is a bit dead sometimes.

Plus younger gay guys dont really go to gay bars as much as older generations. The amount of guys I meet in the George you never go to it and prefer the likes of Pyg or Workmans is ridiculous. The same thing is happening in America. Gay people are no longer just living in gayhourhoods and going to just gay bars. They are more integrated in everyday society.

Lyaiera

Strong Life in Dublin wrote: »

I disagree with this, in my opinion if a city is more gay friendly then it needs less gay bars not more. Why segregate people?

This is my option as a straight man

I know a lot of straight men who completely disagree with you. They're almost invariably straight friends who've been to gay bars, see how people act there and immediately see the value in them.

J_E wrote: »

It's no more harmful than having a rock bar vs a general music venue, the key thing is offering the choice.

I like that description. The good rock bars aren't good because they play rock, but because they're like a community bar with everyone in it together, and everyone respecting each other, even when people don't know each other. That's always been the vibe I get from a good gay bar.

I haven't been out in Dublin much because I rarely travel up there. I did go to the Front Lounge once to meet some online friends. I got chatting to a couple during the afternoon and they asked me what my plans were for the night. I told them where I was going. They said I'd enjoy it and compared it to a pub-come-club in Cork as it was about seven or eight years ago. And their comparison was bang on. The strange thing being the place they compared to it was always a "straight" bar. The atmosphere, politics and look of the clientele was identical though. And the place in Cork was always known as extremely gay friendly.

wakka12

newacc2015 wrote: »

Not at all. Dublin has a serious lack of young 25-35 guys. I know so many young Irish LGBT people living and working abroad. You can go to the George and Pantibar any weekend and see how few young Irish guys are there. There is a whole generation living abroad. I was in the George midweek last week and there was literally about 20 people in the bar, while there was about 10 staff. If you go before 10 on a Saturday, it is a bit dead sometimes.

Plus younger gay guys dont really go to gay bars as much as older generations. The amount of guys I meet in the George you never go to it and prefer the likes of Pyg or Workmans is ridiculous. The same thing is happening in America. Gay people are no longer just living in gayhourhoods and going to just gay bars. They are more integrated in everyday society.

Yeh I don't know about ages but I just feel like the lgbt community in general in Dublin is smallish. Even when I go ongrindr I instantly get so bored because its the same faces I see every time, with a handful of guys I find attractive and I wouldnt even say I'm that fussy tbh..Id delete it fro a few months in hopes thereby be some new faces when I re download but nope just the same few hundred guys on it always, as ever.

Annasopra

wakka12 wrote: »

Yeh I don't know about ages but I just feel like the lgbt community in general in Dublin is smallish. Even when I go ongrindr I instantly get so bored because its the same faces I see every time, with a handful of guys I find attractive and I wouldnt even say I'm that fussy tbh..Id delete it fro a few months in hopes thereby be some new faces when I re download but nope just the same few hundred guys on it always, as ever.

Yeah but the lgbt community is so much more than grindr.

baby and crumble

if anything I'd like to see a lesbian bar, but that'll never happen.

wakka12

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Yeah but the lgbt community is so much more than grindr.

Oh I know! Im not saying that but its just one aspect that shows the community overall is quite small here. Even on here, on one of Irelands most visited websites the lgbt forum seems to have a handful of regular posters and extremely low traffic. We also just have very few facilities across the country, like not many lgbt clubs or societies, and obviously if there was demand for it there'd be more. Thats just why I think the lgbt community is small in Ireland, I don't know maybe it just hasn't began to flourish yet like in other western countries and cities but might soon with the marriage referendum and growing liberal attitudes.

wakka12

baby and crumble wrote: »

if anything I'd like to see a lesbian bar, but that'll never happen.

Oh that'd be so cool! I cant see it happening either though unfortunately

baby and crumble

wakka12 wrote: »

Thats just why I think the lgbt community is small in Ireland, I don't know maybe it just hasn't began to flourish yet like in other western countries and cities but might soon with the marriage referendum and growing liberal attitudes.

I actually think it's more complex. If you look at the age profile in Ireland, the last 20 years or so have seen massive changes- so many of my friends and family no longer live and work here. Couple that with an increase (certainly in my age group) or people settling down. I know I don't go out to gay bars anymore, only very occasionally. I'm getting married next year, most of my friends (regardless of sexuality) are coupled up and settling down. The gay bars in Dublin (which I am most familiar with) are really loud and geared around dancing and booze- if I'm going to meet up with my friends tbh I'll do it somewhere quieter or at someones house and actually get to catchup. I'm not wasting my precious free time trying to yell at someone across a bar.

Annasopra

wakka12 wrote: »

Oh I know! Im not saying that but its just one aspect that shows the community overall is quite small here. Even on here, on one of Irelands most visited websites the lgbt forum seems to have a handful of regular posters and extremely low traffic. We also just have very few facilities across the country, like not many lgbt clubs or societies, and obviously if there was demand for it there'd be more. Thats just why I think the lgbt community is small in Ireland, I don't know maybe it just hasn't began to flourish yet like in other western countries and cities but might soon with the marriage referendum and growing liberal attitudes.

That's an internet trend. Boards.ie overall is losing out to social media such as facebook and twitter.

Your examples just don't really work.

Annasopra

baby and crumble wrote: »

I actually think it's more complex. If you look at the age profile in Ireland, the last 20 years or so have seen massive changes- so many of my friends and family no longer live and work here. Couple that with an increase (certainly in my age group) or people settling down. I know I don't go out to gay bars anymore, only very occasionally. I'm getting married next year, most of my friends (regardless of sexuality) are coupled up and settling down. The gay bars in Dublin (which I am most familiar with) are really loud and geared around dancing and booze- if I'm going to meet up with my friends tbh I'll do it somewhere quieter or at someones house and actually get to catchup. I'm not wasting my precious free time trying to yell at someone across a bar.

I'd love a gay bar without really loud music!!!

wakka12

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I'd love a gay bar without really loud music!!!

Even just a cafe thats open in the daytime and turns into a quieter kind of bar late on would be lovely and something different. I went to several gay bars in barcelona that were very low key quiet bars and were very enjoyable places you could have a conversation in.

L1011

Licencing laws mean that new entrants have to either buy an existing premises or buy the licence from one. That costs Rather A Lot which is why they target mass market and as large a premises as possible.

Places with sensible licencing laws end up getting the cafe bars and so on. We don't have sensible licencing laws.

We also have ridiculously high non-licencing costs - public liability insurance for instance; and other cost sources that aren't a negative but aren't as much of an issue elsewhere - accessibilty works, lifts etc cost a lot and often get a blind eye turned to them in other countries in Europe compared to here and the UK.

endacl

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I'd love a gay bar without really loud music!!!

And no telly. I'm straight, but I'd go there!

L1011

Plenty of pubs without loud music and more without TVs (some without TVs have loud music) already.

eviltwin

I'd like to see a gay bar that doesn't play endless disco and pop. Or just no music at all.

Lyaiera

L1011 wrote: »

Places with sensible licencing laws end up getting the cafe bars and so on. We don't have sensible licencing laws.

That was the only thing that twat McDowell ever suggested that was sensible. Small café bars, that did a mix of food and booze, whose business wasn't based on packing people in and selling them as much booze as they could. Of course the Vintners had a hissy fit.

If that was brought in I'd imagine you'd see a lot more small places specialising on a smaller market.

daithi84

Strong Life in Dublin wrote: »

I disagree with this, in my opinion if a city is more gay friendly then it needs less gay bars not more. Why segregate people?

This is my option as a straight man

In an ideal world maybe but I for one don't feel 100% safe in some straight venues. Gay bars are the only place where I can fully relax and not feel on edge that some neanderthal might have an issue with me kissing my boyfriend or holding his hand. I don't have to worry about that in gay bars. I do like that gay bars are becoming more mixed and was especially happy to see at pride that there were many straight families marching and older people. Maybe its my experiences from the past but I do like having a gay venue where other people aren't staring at you because you're gay.

JupiterKid

Dublin certainly could do with a couple more gay bars. Just 2 bars for a city of over 1 million is ridiculous. Perhaps a couple of smallish, intimate cafe style bars would be an idea.

Cities with comparable populations have more gay bars than Dublin. The loss of The Dragon was a major setback.

J_E

JupiterKid wrote: »

Dublin certainly could do with a couple more gay bars. Just 2 bars for a city of over 1 million is ridiculous. Perhaps a couple of smallish, intimate cafe style bars would be an idea.

Cities with comparable populations have more gay bars than Dublin. The loss of The Dragon was a major setback.

Other cities have easier planning regulations and affordable rents, along with more space to fit things into. Dublin only has about half a million people around the city, and everything is so densely focused in the city centre area that it's just not comparable to Manchester for example when it comes to many things.

Here's the thing - if you went into the Dragon some days during the week, it was awkwardly quiet, and far too big a venue space. The population of the city doesn't really matter if there are only so many in the city centre at night and less willing to go to these venues regularly. People are always complaining that there isn't enough available for gay people, and then don't go to nights set up by others, I know this having had been involved in one monthly night. It was funny, people from Cork would drive up to visit yet people living a street up couldn't be bothered!

A cafe would probably better suit overall, but there is intense competition in Dublin when it comes to anything food or drink related because it's all so packed into one small space.

wakka12

J_E wrote: »

Other cities have easier planning regulations and affordable rents, along with more space to fit things into. Dublin only has about half a million people around the city, and everything is so densely focused in the city centre area that it's just not comparable to Manchester for example when it comes to many things.

Here's the thing - if you went into the Dragon some days during the week, it was awkwardly quiet, and far too big a venue space. The population of the city doesn't really matter if there are only so many in the city centre at night and less willing to go to these venues regularly. People are always complaining that there isn't enough available for gay people, and then don't go to nights set up by others, I know this having had been involved in one monthly night. It was funny, people from Cork would drive up to visit yet people living a street up couldn't be bothered!

A cafe would probably better suit overall, but there is intense competition in Dublin when it comes to anything food or drink related because it's all so packed into one small space.

So true. Getting off topic lol but Dublin (all cities) are so much nicer and work so much better when residential and commercial areas are mixed throughout the city. Instead of just having one small dense area with lots of amenities and then miles and miles of surround suburbs with nothing going on in them. If Dublin was like this and people lived closer to nightlife areas Im sure we could support another gay bar in the city

ongarboy

I really believe social media dating apps (Grindr/Manhunt/Tinder etc) are the main reason there isn't an expansion of gay bars and it would be difficult to make additional bars profitable in the modern era.

I think a poll on another thread here claimed that most people met their partners through dating apps. While going out on the scene isn't exclusively about dating and hook ups, a significant percentage of those who used to go out on the scene purely for that purpose no longer do as Grindr etc satisfies their requirements. For those who just want to go out and meet friends and like music etc, you really can do that in just about any other broad minded nightspot in Dublin city centre.

I think Dublin's scene offering when you combine all the clubs (weekly/monthly/ad hoc) with the permanent fixtures is quite good and any of my friends who visit from abroad rave about them. I think familiarity breeds a little bit of contempt when you're used to going to the same few bars year after year though although I'm thankfully not at that stage. I still really enjoy the scene and particularly all the new club nights that have come on stream in the last couple of years (Sweatbox, Aerach, Daddi).

Ten of Swords

A new pub opened on James street about a month ago, JK Stoutman.  I was going past it yesterday and I saw a rainbow flag hanging outside, a (very) quick glance online didnt say anything about it being marketed as a gay friendly bar, flag might just be treated as an accessory. Anyone from the area know or has been there?

wakka12

Ten of Swords wrote: »

A new pub opened on James street about a month ago, JK Stoutman.  I was going past it yesterday and I saw a rainbow flag hanging outside, a (very) quick glance online didnt say anything about it being marketed as a gay friendly bar, flag might just be treated as an accessory. Anyone from the area know or has been there?

Never been there. But it could easily just be a flag still up from pride week, sure every second business around dublin city centre had a rainbow flag up somewhere on their building then

reason vs religion

Came across this article which is relevant to the discussion: Gay bars are under threat but not from the obvious attackers: an unhappy side-effect of a far more cheering trend | The Economist.

While not advancing on anything already said in this thread, it's a sympathetic and sobering account of the decline of gay bars, and one with a silver lining. Having only come of age relatively recently, visiting a gay club was never the cathartic experience for me that it would have been for many in harder times. And, watching Queer as Folk and accounts of 80's and 90's gay clubbing, I can't tell you how much I envy the experience of when it would have been for me too, even if I'm likely getting an idealised account and ignoring just how damaging was the homophobic climate of the time.

Nonetheless, the gay club still had a significance for me as being the unofficial gay HQ and somewhere I saw as being an essential feature of my once newfound gay lifestyle, even if it was only as something I sought to avoid! So it's unsettling to think that, mere decades from now, young gays (will their sexuality even still be a defining feature? - a third of 16 and 17 y/o's defined themselves as other than heterosexual in a recent survey) will look back on gay clubs as an extinct product of a homophobic past, in much the same way we look back today on Prohibition-era speakeasies, bars whose patrons may very well have mourned their passing similarly to how we are. #sad


Incidentally, despite the impression many might have of the Economist, it has long been an advocate of liberal reforms: today, it is a staunch critic of national drug policy, our abominable penal systems and climate change denial, and has repeatedly called on European countries to open their fcuking borders to Middle Eastern refugees, continuing to praise and support Angela Merkel's quite soberingly compassionate decision to welcome more than a million, despite the political backlash of late.

And it has been an ally on gay rights too.





I was barely born in 1996, when that issue was published, so I may be wrong when I advance that the publication of it was a hugely commendable act of dissent for the time. But twenty years ago, however much views of gays had softened among reasonable people, there were surely few significant publications which plastered such unequivocal support of gay marriage on their front pages.

I first heard about that 1996 cover in this article, which I read in the lead up to the marriage referendum. To that point, I had been emotionally detached from the debate, being quite sure of it passing and secure in my own situation even if it didn't. Yet I found it more than a little emotionally affecting to read. I had focused myself on abstract arguments on why gay marriage ought to be allowed, so was floored by the simplicity of the final line: "After all, gay people are not demanding special treatment, just the same freedoms that everyone else takes for granted: to love whom they please and to marry whom they love." Yes, yes, yes!

RagsOBrien

wakka12 wrote: »

So true. Getting off topic lol but Dublin (all cities) are so much nicer and work so much better when residential and commercial areas are mixed throughout the city. Instead of just having one small dense area with lots of amenities and then miles and miles of surround suburbs with nothing going on in them. If Dublin was like this and people lived closer to nightlife areas Im sure we could support another gay bar in the city

You hit the nail on the head in relation to the chaos in the city centre. The city centre isn't much bigger in geographical terms than the small town I'm from in rural Ireland, yet every imaginable amenity is packed into a tiny little area and expected that this will actually work in practice.

We need urban planners from outside the country who are competent. What goes on in relation to planning here is farcical at best. No other cpaital city in Europe or elsewhere that I've visited has every service crammed into a geographical area the size of D1/D2.

No lessons are ever learned. The ongoing luas works is another example of complete idiocy in respect of the chaos and disruption it is causing when an alternative should be put in place like an overhead metro or even an underground that would eventually pay for itself.

In relation to gay bars, I think the poor planning practices is preventing more of them setting up in the city.