Car Tax: Emissions vs age

Potential-Monke

Having a conversation with a few lads the other night, and it went to car tax. Now, I'm broke, so I cannot afford a 08 or newer car. And I personally don't feel safe in the older, smaller cars. I picked up a 02 E220 Merc (on recommendation of my mechanic, as I've had a run of bad cars). The tax on it is €951 for the year, but I googled and found the manufacturers stats on emissions, and it would fall into the €280 per year bracket.

What we were wondering is, is it fair to have a two tier tax system? I know the debate has been going on since the introduction of CO2 based tax rates, but I mostly dismissed it as it would have been, has been and will be years before I can afford a 08. But now that I actually have to pay a stupid amount of money to tax the car (didn't have anything bigger than a 2 litre before), and even though it's "only" a few hundred more than what I was used to paying, I suddenly feel robbed, especially after checking out the emissions.

So, has anyone looked into this before? Does anyone know if there is a certain section in Government where one could make his case? Or even if there is anything under EU law that might state that a double tier system would be unfair/unjust and that we should have the choice between age and emissions? Tried googling but to no avail.

Thanks in advance.

Atlantic Dawn

I'd seriously doubt a 2002 E220 would have emissions leading to motor tax of €280 in 2008. They basically take your money either way, whether it's on massive depreciation on a newish car or on motor tax on an old car, you can't win, the way it always is in this country. On the good side a large engined car pre 2008 goes for feck all so the savings make up for the tax. The EU certainly don't give a flying fook about the Irish motorist, they also allowed us to be over supplied with dirty diesels supplied mostly from EU member states whose emissions are exempt from the NCT.

MarkAnthony

If the taxation is internal and does not create an effective tariff or limitation on the number of imports it of absolutely no concern to the EU. Despite what Brits think the EU is not some sort of galactic overlord.

You could spend tens of thousands of euro fighting it in court - I doubt it would be a particularly good return on investment.

Dunno why you don't feel safe in a smaller car, if you're involved in an accident it doesn't really matter what you're in the forces, which tend to be the biggest killers, are generally the same. There is a environmental and public policy imperative to get people into smaller and more efficient cars, frankly it's a good thing all round.

hullaballoo

Typical cyclist ^^^ :rolleyes:

The problem with smaller cars in any significant impact is that the crumple zone is usually the footwell. Apart from that, some people actually do require a larger car - like people with kids. I had to upsize this year from a hatchback to a saloon simply to fit a car seat for a toddler in the back, with room for a buggy and all his other accoutrements and have enough room to take at least a couple of passengers.

In relation to the fairness of the motor tax regime - quite simply put, there is none. The emissions model is a farce because cars lie about their own emissions. Without going on an anti-establishment rant, the problem is that successive governments have been practically schizophrenic in their policy objectives around transport and the motor tax system is just one by-product of that.

colm_mcm

An E220 Avantgarde is 177 g/km emissions, so would be €750 on the new system.

If you could tax an 02 e class for €280, people would be asking more for them, and they'd be out of your price range

Claw Hammer

Potential-Monke wrote: »

So, has anyone looked into this before? Does anyone know if there is a certain section in Government where one could make his case? Or even if there is anything under EU law that might state that a double tier system would be unfair/unjust and that we should have the choice between age and emissions? Tried googling but to no avail.

Thanks in advance.

The object of the system is not fairness, it is to raise income. The green party got an emissions based system inserted when they were in government but it has simply added to the anomolies. The government do not have a section to deal with it. It would have to be challenged in court. It would costs more for the consultation with a solicitor than the annual road tax. It therefore does not make economic sense to fight it. A large group of pre 08 owners could get together to fight a test case but it is unlikely.

Potential-Monke

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Dunno why you don't feel safe in a smaller car, if you're involved in an accident it doesn't really matter what you're in the forces, which tend to be the biggest killers, are generally the same.

I can't say for certain what exactly it is, but I've had a 00 Corolla hatch and 2 civic coupes, and I just did not feel safe in them. I felt like it co0uld just go from underneath me. Whereas in the Galants and the Merc I had/have, I just feel safer, and if someone does hit me in the Merc, I should be a lot better off than if I was driving a 02 Fiesta!

colm_mcm wrote: »

An E220 Avantgarde is 177 g/km emissions, so would be €750 on the new system.

If you could tax an 02 e class for €280, people would be asking more for them, and they'd be out of your price range

The manufacturer lied to me! Still a saving of €200 though!

Ah yeah, it was as I expected, but was checking on the off chance. Cheers for the replies people!

MarkAnthony

I drive a Fiat 500 and it's pretty nice and cheap usually :pac:

That said I dont think anyone would feel safe in any car I drive so best to keep me in something nice and small!

CiniO

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Dunno why you don't feel safe in a smaller car, if you're involved in an accident it doesn't really matter what you're in the forces, which tend to be the biggest killers, are generally the same.

You are greatly wrong here.

In general, the bigger the car, the heavier it is.
And if you collide with another vehicle, the heavier your car is, the better off you'll end up.

F.e. if your car weights 2000kg. Other car weights 1000kg.
Assume you both do 50km/h and collide head on.

What happens?

Accident effects should be comparable to you hitting a wall at 33km/h.
And about 66km/h for the other car hitting the wall.
Difference purely coming from weight difference.


I'd way much prefer to be in 2000kg car, than 1000kg car during head on collision or any collision with another vehicle.

Also considering car is smaller, it has smaller crumple zones it's generally less safe, even if hitting stationary object like concrete wall, house, tree, etc... But weight effect when colliding with other vehicle are very real and significent.

coylemj

CiniO wrote: »

You are greatly wrong here.

In general, the bigger the car, the heavier it is.
And if you collide with another vehicle, the heavier your car is, the better off you'll end up.

This is correct. If two cars crash in a head-to-head situation, the heavier car will push back the lighter car because momentum is directly proportional to weight. Say the two cars are each doing 50 kph and say the instant after the crash, the combined (now mangled together) twosome is doing 25 kph in the direction the bigger car was travelling. The bigger car will experience an instantaneous deceleration of 25 kph (from +50 to +25 kph) but the lighter car will have suffered an instant deceleration of 75 kph - from +50 to -25 kph i.e. a three times more severe stoppage.

Even with airbags and seat belts, the people in the lighter car will suffer severe injuries from their internal organs slamming against the chest.

MarkAnthony

CiniO wrote: »

You are greatly wrong here.

In general, the bigger the car, the heavier it is.
And if you collide with another vehicle, the heavier your car is, the better off you'll end up.

F.e. if your car weights 2000kg. Other car weights 1000kg.
Assume you both do 50km/h and collide head on.

What happens?

Accident effects should be comparable to you hitting a wall at 33km/h.
And about 66km/h for the other car hitting the wall.
Difference purely coming from weight difference.


I'd way much prefer to be in 2000kg car, than 1000kg car during head on collision or any collision with another vehicle.

Also considering car is smaller, it has smaller crumple zones it's generally less safe, even if hitting stationary object like concrete wall, house, tree, etc... But weight effect when colliding with other vehicle are very real and significent.

coylemj wrote: »

This is correct. If two cars crash in a head-to-head situation, the heavier car will push back the lighter car because momentum is directly proportional to weight. Say the two cars are each doing 50 kph and say the instant after the crash, the combined (now mangled together) twosome is doing 25 kph in the direction the bigger car was travelling. The bigger car will experience an instantaneous deceleration of 25 kph (from +50 to +25 kph) but the lighter car will have suffered an instant deceleration of 75 kph - from +50 to -25 kph i.e. a three times more severe stoppage.

Even with airbags and seat belts, the people in the lighter car will suffer severe injuries from their internal organs slamming against the chest.

So fill the Fiat up with bricks is what you're saying? And only have head on crashes.