Feeling had by my builder and engineer

Hannaho

Hi! Just need some urgent advice. My builder gave me a quote for 137k to do all the work on my house - new extension, attic conversion, rewire replumb, new high grade insulation, landscaping back and front garden - now he and the engineer this evening were laughing about how I owe them another e20k - none of these costs except a garden wall were approved - he is charing me e2k for a garden wall which is ten foot long. The neighbour next door wanted our extension brought back by 18 inches, and he did this without asking me, told me after it was done - said it would cost e1000 but has it down for e2500k. Put higher grade insulation in the attic is charging me 4.2k for that - never told me that he was doing this. Fixed some attic beams that he said were rotten - e900. Told me that sports were included in lighting but now is charging me for them. Said he was going to put the wiring up to smart house standard and this was included in the price and now charging me for it. I feel the engineer is in cahoots. Would a QS help at this stage. Going to talk to my solicitor tomorrow. Help!!

nikkibikki

Have you got the quote in writing OP?

2nd Row Donkey

I don't get the thread title

'feeling had by my builder and ......."

Flippyfloppy

As far as I know you have all the control here...

pajero12

2nd Row Donkey wrote: »

I don't get the thread title

'feeling had by my builder and ......."

As in "I've been done by..."


Hope you got the quote in writing op?
f*ck the chancers

Gerry T

OP,
If the builder took on additional works without your prior approval I would say you don't owe him a penny..cent!!

Secondly If it were me and he cut back the original plan by 18" I would tell him that you want the building as per agreement so he can at his cost re-do the build adding the 18" and if he fails to that you will get a second builder to price for this works and deduct that amount from his total bill. You most likely won't follow through on this but if he were laughing as you say and is exaggerating the additional works then why not frighten him.

Most importantly as there is a dispute you need to immediately stop all payments and remove access to the premises & gardens. Once you have control of the money the builder won't be able to rip you off.

You may wish to pay a reasonable amount for the works done and I would suggest you get an independent quantity surveyor in to value the work done and tell the builder your doing this AND tell the builder that He will be paying the cost of the independent valuation, deducted from money paid.

Finally do get a written agreement as it sounds like the builder is slippery.

nelbot

Hannaho wrote: »

Hi! Just need some urgent advice. My builder gave me a quote for 137k to do all the work on my house - new extension, attic conversion, rewire replumb, new high grade insulation, landscaping back and front garden - now he and the engineer this evening were laughing about how I owe them another e20k - none of these costs except a garden wall were approved - he is charing me e2k for a garden wall which is ten foot long. The neighbour next door wanted our extension brought back by 18 inches, and he did this without asking me, told me after it was done - said it would cost e1000 but has it down for e2500k. Put higher grade insulation in the attic is charging me 4.2k for that - never told me that he was doing this. Fixed some attic beams that he said were rotten - e900. Told me that sports were included in lighting but now is charging me for them. Said he was going to put the wiring up to smart house standard and this was included in the price and now charging me for it. I feel the engineer is in cahoots. Would a QS help at this stage. Going to talk to my solicitor tomorrow. Help!!

He is a con man by the sounds of it. Almost every construction project, no matter how small, encounters unforeseen issues/problems, but the contractor should never undertake any work or change any price without the customers consent. I would immediately get legal advice. If you have paid him for the extension, he owes you the one you agreed.

ted1

I'd insist on the 18 inches back and regards 4.2k insulation in the attic that is taking the p1ss

As regards the wiring for a smart home , what exactly did he do ?

bryaj

Be very careful, the law is an ass.
The work has been carried out and while you may have not requested it you are benefiting from it?

I am aware of something similar where the house owner thought that if they had not requested the work they did not have to pay for it - they were wrong as they were enjoying/benefiting from additional work.
I will guess that if you refuse to pay that he will request a suitable time from you to remove his materials which you have refused to pay for.
You need specialist advice from a solicitor who specialises in law of contract - which may be to cut your losses and pay up. Sorry you wont want to here this.

This guy is a few steps ahead of you.

Hope I am wrong.

Metric Tensor

If your engineer is actually in cahoots with him it is disgraceful. What was his involvement in the project? Did he inspect the works as they progressed? Did he see that the work was not as agreed? Did he inform you of what he saw? What are his recommendations regarding the current claims?

I don't have enough knowledge to recommend anything re the builder but I suggest you write a letter (or an email with a record) to the engineer outlining what you have said above and ask him the questions directly in numbered bullet form. If you believe his answers are unsatisfactory and he is indeed an registered engineer then Engineer's Ireland have an ethics committee that you can contact. I would contact the Engineer directly first. There may also be some recourse to the engineer's professional indemnity insurers. But again I'd treat that as a last resort. Put your thoughts in writing to the engineer first and I would expect him to jump to attention to protect his reputation.

I have met a few poor quality engineers in my time but I haven't encountered one that was totally crooked - I don't doubt they are out there but I would hope they are in the minority. Hopefully when you let yours know how serious you are he might get active. If not you know the next steps.

Although it's difficult it would help to be as unconfrontational as possible at the start.

mickdw

bryaj wrote: »

Be very careful, the law is an ass.
The work has been carried out and while you may have not requested it you are benefiting from it?

I am aware of something similar where the house owner thought that if they had not requested the work they did not have to pay for it - they were wrong as they were enjoying/benefiting from additional work.
I will guess that if you refuse to pay that he will request a suitable time from you to remove his materials which you have refused to pay for.
You need specialist advice from a solicitor who specialises in law of contract - which may be to cut your losses and pay up. Sorry you wont want to here this.

This guy is a few steps ahead of you.

Hope I am wrong.

Even if he could take this approach, I figure the fact that he reduced the size of the build is a major issue and should be enough to counter any claim. After all, this is floor area that is now missing and not being enjoyed even though it had been paid for.

Dardania

WHat is the contractual start point here?

Do you have a contract?

Dudda

Something doesn’t sound right. It’s unlikely that even a dodgy builder would take instruction from a neighbour. Sometimes the survey and plans don’t match what’s on site. Dimensions taken from OS maps are never accurate. I’ve worked on projects where rear extensions had to change, for example a boundary wall which we all thought was parallel with the house wasn’t so the extension moved by 300mm and reduced by 100mm in size. Some of it could have a valid explanation. I’d say the engineer wouldn’t sign off on rotten roof timbers so they would have to be replaced but you should have found out earlier. The insulation could have been specified wrong or they could have presumed the attic already had a certain level of insulation and only a top up was required. Additional was then needed as you need to reach certain requirements to meet regulations. Talk to the engineer first away from the builder before paying any solicitors or Quantity Surveyors and see if he can expand more on the issues. Then if you need to follow the advice above by others.

Metric Tensor

Another echo of what is said above -

Once you start to involve solicitors no-one will win and everyone will lose money not to mention that the whole thing will drag on for at least 5 years.

Do your best to avoid going to legal route.

mickdw

Dudda wrote: »

Something doesn’t sound right. It’s unlikely that even a dodgy builder would take instruction from a neighbour. Sometimes the survey and plans don’t match what’s on site. Dimensions taken from OS maps are never accurate. I’ve worked on projects where rear extensions had to change, for example a boundary wall which we all thought was parallel with the house wasn’t so the extension moved by 300mm and reduced by 100mm in size. Some of it could have a valid explanation.

Are people really designing works based on OSI mapping? Sounds mad to me.

Dudda

mickdw wrote: »

Are people really designing works based on OSI mapping? Sounds mad to me.

If you pay someone peanuts for planning permission they're not going to do a full proper survey. Their fee would be gone on the survey. The problem arises when these plans are then developed by a builder for construction who also doesn't take out a measuring tape until the digger is on site.

If you have an architect or engineer involved from planning right through to handover they'll do a decent survey as they know it will save them time and problems later.

Hannaho

Hi! Thanks for all the replies. I have gone down the route of getting a QS. Can't get anything in writing from engineer or builder re so called extras despite saying I need everything in writing. Today, the builder talked about removing the zoning from the high pressure heating system if I didn't agree to pay the extras. Yet, the house involved upgrading the rating from D2 to B3, so a zoned high pressure system was part of the original plan. Do people think going down the QS route is the way to go?

Metric Tensor

The QS will help you understand the work that was done and how much it should have cost as well as probably reviewing the original specification for comparison.

Unless he/she specialises in it and offers it as a service they won't do any "dispute resolution" between you and any of the other parties.

P.S.: Should have added QS will help you review any quotations and claims from the contractor and I'm sure advise you on how to have your figures and documentation well prepared for any dispute.

hexosan

You need to talk to a solicitor here in my opinion just to clarify your legal position.

BryanF

Hannaho wrote: »

Hi! Thanks for all the replies. I have gone down the route of getting a QS. Can't get anything in writing from engineer or builder re so called extras despite saying I need everything in writing. Today, the builder talked about removing the zoning from the high pressure heating system if I didn't agree to pay the extras. Yet, the house involved upgrading the rating from D2 to B3, so a zoned high pressure system was part of the original plan. Do people think going down the QS route is the way to go?

1. Is there a contract in place between you and the builder?
2. Is there a contract in place between you and the engineer?
3. We're the items (you say) the builder said were included recorded in writing?
4. Did your engineer prepare drawings and detailed spec - if so were these items included?
5. Who Is the builder claiming gave 'the go ahead' for these extras?
6. As with any renovation / extension - were you advised its best to have a contingency of 10/20% for projects like yours?

bryaj

Hi Hannaho,
How have things gone for yoy?