Flying over snowdonia

737max

Hi
Why do flights appear to avoid flying over Snowdonia and either hug the north coast of Wales or come around from Swansea.
Snowdonia isn't all that high.
I'd understand for UK flights where it is hardly worthwhile getting altitude but I've been on flights of European origin and still taken to the north coast of Wales which is a bit off the great circle route from origin to destination.
Also, the routes pull the plane off the great circle route closer to London. surely this must be adding a few % to the amount of Fuel burnt on the trip.

afatbollix

Its a RAF training area for fast jets. If you have a VVIP on board they will let you fly through it.

737max

That's ****. How many tonnes of additional fuel are burnt each day because of that especially now that Air Forces have become drone operations in the last decade.

Locker10a

737max wrote: »

That's ****. How many tonnes of additional fuel are burnt each day because of that especially now that Air Forces have become drone operations in the last decade.

Only this summerI believe the military have expanded their operations over Wales creating more restrictions over this area!!
If you fly between London and Ireland on a Sunday flight can be shorter as there is no military operations and you can take a short cut through this area, I think! Im sure someone will correct me!

737max

There is plenty of space up in the Scottish highlands where they would be able to train flying over similar terrain without inconveniencing as many flights.

Locker10a

737max wrote: »

There is plenty of space up in the Scottish highlands where they would be able to train flying over similar terrain without inconveniencing as many flights.

I made this suggestions before, but there is a reason for it which i can't remember!! Ill try and find out again!

Shannon757

737max wrote: »

There is plenty of space up in the Scottish highlands where they would be able to train flying over similar terrain without inconveniencing as many flights.

An awful lot of flights from Europe to America fly over the North of Scotland.

737max

not as big a diversion off a great circle route for not as big a number of flights and the RAF already have restricted space up there.

Fattes

737max wrote: »

There is plenty of space up in the Scottish highlands where they would be able to train flying over similar terrain without inconveniencing as many flights.

The are Cad West or The Mach loop as it is more commonly knows, is a very specific training area and the valley topography, geography and flight paths is not replicated anywhere else in the UK. The area next to it 7T is one of the few areas that pilots can train low level up to 100 feet. The reason the RAF fine id unique is the approach out over the Irish sea, the layout of the valleys allows the jets to loop around without having to deviate from the flight path.

testicles

This post has been deleted.

737max

That all looks like great fun but they're still adding 5 minutes to many millions of peoples' flights every year.

Irish Steve

There is also a drone/missile range further south off the west coast, (Aberporth) and you definitely do NOT want to be getting mixed up with that sort of hardware, a conspiracy theory suggests that an Aer Lingus Viscount that was lost on a Cork London flight was downed by an RAF device from these ranges.

Flights to and from London (and other areas) can and will be given "direct" clearances when the ranges are not in use, which is normally evenings and weekends, and the reality is that the difference in flight time is not that significant.

Fattes

737max wrote: »

That all looks like great fun but they're still adding 5 minutes to many millions of peoples' flights every year.

5 minutes delay to make sure that the pilots are effectively trained to ensure the airspace, the delayed civilians use is safe and stays open. Also can highly recommend a visit the RAF publish a timetable of its use.

martinsvi

I think it's to do with aircraft sequencing through waypoints - that RAF airspace is a non-issue, many GA aircraft get through it every month with no issue. When you're on an IFR flight plan, your arrival from UK will pretty much be via BAGSO or LIPGO, there's not much space to squeze any more airways or waypoints. UL18 goes right across EGD201 (RAF danger area) and you can see it beeing quite busy with commercial traffic just as I type this.. have a look at IFR chart and everything will become clear

EDIT: sorry, it looks like it's the UM17 in use and arrival is via VATRY, but it's not that big of a detour anyway

737max

Fattes wrote: »

. Also can highly recommend a visit the RAF publish a timetable of its use.

No thanks. I have combat jets flying at low altitude here regularly. Noisy effers.

Fattes

martinsvi wrote: »

I think it's to do with aircraft sequencing through waypoints - that RAF airspace is a non-issue, many GA aircraft get through it every month with no issue. When you're on an IFR flight plan, your arrival from UK will pretty much be via BAGSO or LIPGO, there's not much space to squeze any more airways or waypoints. UL18 goes right across EGD201 (RAF danger area) and you can see it beeing quite busy with commercial traffic just as I type this.. have a look at IFR chart and everything will become clear

EDIT: sorry, it looks like it's the UM17 in use and arrival is via VATRY, but it's not that big of a detour anyway

The area between St Davids and Holyhead over the St Georges Channel is also used by the RAF, for hawk jets out of Anglesey and F15 from Lakenheath train over that area too.

tricky D

Nice map of restricted areas: http://www.mantma.co.uk/pdf/eg_enr_6_5_1_1_en.pdf