12 year old girl runs 16:44 for 5K

Chivito550

Time to pull up the socks folks!

http://www.flotrack.org/article/42768-12-year-old-grace-ping-runs-16-44-5k-age-group-world-record

tang1

Sure any young lad playing a bit of GAA would run that! Fair play to her, clearly talented.

demfad

It's a great buzz personally for her I'm sure.
A quick scan of the underage records http://age-records.125mb.com/
Shows that the US holds a disproportionately large amount of these records especially at the younger ages 5-12 etc. (She took the record off another American girl)

It looks like her Dad was training her for the sub 10 year old record also 2 years ago. She took that off another American girl too. 400 reps on the track seem to have been part of the U10 record.

The pity is Grace and these other fine young athletes will be long burnt out and sickened by the time the 2028-32 Olympics come around and will be very far from top of the top of the world when medals are being handed out then.


It seems she does/has done a good bit of cross country skiing and maybe that training might give her more longevity, who knows.

Chivito550

10:28 for 2 miles just 24 hours later. That's some double.

demfad

Chivito550 wrote: »

10:28 for 2 miles just 24 hours later. That's some double.

Good endurance clearly. That might be a great aerobic base from the XC skiing. She has potential for more than Under age records.
However, If her Dad focuses now on the U14 record, then the U16 record she will be broken before she even is old enough to go to college.
Even high school competition for her age group seems to be ultra competitive which is why America holds so many of these records perhaps and so little of the senior ones (distance running).

Chivito550

demfad wrote: »

Good endurance clearly. That might be a great aerobic base from the XC skiing. She has potential for more than Under age records.
However, If her Dad focuses now on the U14 record, then the U16 record she will be broken before she even is old enough to go to college.
Even high school competition for her age group seems to be ultra competitive which is why America holds so many of these records perhaps and so little of the senior ones (distance running).

Agree, she could end up being burnt out completely, or hating the sport. Mind you, Andre Agassi was forced to train every day for hours on end by his dad, he grew to detest the sport, but he still made it to the top. Different sport though. Maybe it wouldn't work like that in athletics. We've already seen Mary Cain fall off the radar after her amazing performances a few years ago.

I'm surprised they keep world records for such young age categories to be honest.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Agree, she could end up being burnt out completely, or hating the sport. Mind you, Andre Agassi was forced to train every day for hours on end by his dad, he grew to detest the sport, but he still made it to the top. Different sport though. Maybe it wouldn't work like that in athletics. We've already seen Mary Cain fall off the radar after her amazing performances a few years ago.

I'm surprised they keep world records for such young age categories to be honest.

The willaims sisters are another example

demfad

Chivito550 wrote: »

Agree, she could end up being burnt out completely, or hating the sport. Mind you, Andre Agassi was forced to train every day for hours on end by his dad, he grew to detest the sport, but he still made it to the top. Different sport though. Maybe it wouldn't work like that in athletics. We've already seen Mary Cain fall off the radar after her amazing performances a few years ago.

I'm surprised they keep world records for such young age categories to be honest.

They shouldn't keep records. One lad there seems to have well over a dozen. Not right.

Optimum training for tennis needs to be on the court or similar seemingly. You need to be hitting a tennis ball for the skill element. You may hate it but you probably need it and wont get physically burnt out of international contention.

Optimum training for breaking U age track records is on the track.
That is not optimum or sustainable physically for breaking senior world records or being competitive at senior standard. Sustainable aerobic development would be paramount.

This particular girl's siblings also hold records. Maybe the comraderie and the XC skiing would sustain them longer. Little bodies running reps on a track is not sustainable and isn't correct training anyway for bigger goals.

Chivito550

demfad wrote: »

They shouldn't keep records. One lad there seems to have well over a dozen. Not right.

Optimum training for tennis needs to be on the court or similar seemingly. You need to be hitting a tennis ball for the skill element. You may hate it but you probably need it and wont get physically burnt out of international contention.

Optimum training for breaking U age track records is on the track.
That is not optimum or sustainable physically for breaking senior world records or being competitive at senior standard. Sustainable aerobic development would be paramount.

This particular girl's siblings also hold records. Maybe the comraderie and the XC skiing would sustain them longer. Little bodies running reps on a track is not sustainable and isn't correct training anyway for bigger goals.

We don't really know what her training is like to be honest. For all we know she may not be doing a lot of specific running training.

demfad

Chivito550 wrote: »

We don't really know what her training is like to be honest. For all we know she may not be doing a lot of specific running training.

I read one of her Dad's Facebook posts and she was doing 400s for the U10 record at specific (record targeted) pace. You'd imagine that with such American dominance and competitiveness at these age levels that it is similar across the board. I hope not but it looks like it.

Dub13

tang1 wrote: »

Sure any young lad playing a bit of GAA would run that! Fair play to her, clearly talented.

No chance.

Grueller

Dub13 wrote: »

No chance.

Think that may have been a tongue in cheek jibe at the gaa beats all other sports attitude.

Dub13

Grueller wrote:

Think that may have been a tongue in cheek jibe at the gaa beats all other sports attitude.

Haha, a little blonde moment.

El Caballo

demfad wrote: »

It's a great buzz personally for her I'm sure.
A quick scan of the underage records http://age-records.125mb.com/
Shows that the US holds a disproportionately large amount of these records

Not taking away anything from your point but I wouldn't pay any attention to that record list as it's miles off. Things like German Fernandez being the 18 year old WR holder at 5000m with 13:25 when Sammy Wanijiru ran a faster pace for 10000m at that age and isn't on the 10000m list not to mention Eliud Kipchoge's sub-13 at 17/18 and Dejen Gebremeskels 12:46 WJR. Hamza Driouch and Nigel Amos are also missing from the list as are loads more who have run way faster at those ages than the athletes listed there. Whoever compiled that list either has no idea about athletics or decided that Africans don't exist.

Chivito550

El Caballo wrote: »

Not taking away anything from your point but I wouldn't pay any attention to that record list as it's miles off. Things like German Fernandez being the 18 year old WR holder at 5000m with 13:25 when Sammy Wanijiru ran a faster pace for 10000m at that age and isn't on the 10000m list not to mention Eliud Kipchoge's sub-13 at 17/18 and Dejen Gebremeskels 12:46 WJR. Hamza Driouch and Nigel Amos are also missing from the list as are loads more who have run way faster at those ages than the athletes listed there. Whoever compiled that list either has no idea about athletics or decided that Africans don't exist.

I don't believe any of the ages of the African athletes to be honest. I've seen lads at World Juniors who look about 25!

El Caballo

Chivito550 wrote: »

I don't believe any of the ages of the African athletes to be honest. I've seen lads at World Juniors who look about 25!

True but you can't just pick and choose whose what age until you get to a European or American. Galen Rupp and German Fernandez being the age group record holders is a bit of a joke to be honest.

Chivito550

Have to say that world age group record list makes for depressing reading. A 12 year old girl has run considerably faster than my 400m PB! For 100m and 200m, that drops down to an 11 year old girl! Though this result is respectable compared to my marathon time where I've been defeated by a 6 year old girl! :pac:

Chivito550

El Caballo wrote: »

True but you can't just pick and choose whose what age until you get to a European or American. Galen Rupp and German Fernandez being the age group record holders is a bit of a joke to be honest.

It's hardly an official list. It looks like it has been compiled by a stats nerd (I say this with no disrespect, as I myself am a stats nerd), and probably doesn't take the ages of the African athletes seriously, and so omits them.

KielyUnusual

Chivito550 wrote: »

It's hardly an official list. It looks like it has been compiled by a stats nerd (I say this with no disrespect, as I myself am a stats nerd), and probably doesn't take the ages of the African athletes seriously, and so omits them.

It does say at the top of the list that it is a list of age records from 48 countries, which I'm guessing just encompasses the US, Europe and Japan, since these are the only countries that actually come up.

Interesting to see the correlation between the 'boys' and 'girls' times up to twelve and thirteen and then the stark difference thereafter, especially with the recent controversy in the 'women's' 800m.

Edit: List of countries

COUNTRIES

The athletes in these lists come from the following countries:

ALG Algeria
ARG Argentina
AUS Australia
BAR Barbados
BEL Belgium
BRA Brazil
BUL Bulgaria
CAN Canada
CAY Cayman Islands
CRO Croatia
CUB Cuba
CZE Czech Republic
DEN Denmark
DOM Dominican Republic
ESP Spain
EST Estonia
FIN Finland
FRA France
GBR Great Britain and Northern Ireland
GER Germany
GRE Greece
GRN Grenada
HUN Hungary
IRL Ireland
ITA Italy
JAM Jamaica
JPN Japan
KOR South Korea
LAT Latvia
LUX Luxemburg
NED Netherlands
NOR Norway
NZL New Zealand
PAN Panama
PHI Philippines
POL Poland
ROU Romania
RSA South Africa
RUS Russia
SAM Samoa
SLO Slovenia
SRB Serbia
SUI Switzerland
SWE Sweden
TTO Trinidad and Tobago
TUN Tunisia
USA United States of America
VEN Venezuela

walshb

Anyone know any Irish PBs at young ages? Sonia's? That would really give an insight into this 12 year old's potential. It's a hell of a time that the girl posted. Kind of embarrassing for a lot of us here! Kind of goes to show that you are born with this. All the hard work means F all unless you have it to begin with.

TRR_the_turd

walshb wrote: »

Anyone know any Irish PBs at young ages? Sonia's? That would really give an insight into this 12 year old's potential. It's a hell of a time that the girl posted. Kind of embarrassing for a lot of us here! Kind of goes to show that you are born with this. All the hard work means F all unless you have it to begin with.

Or another way of looking at it. With adequate talent and lots of over training at a young age you can ensure your child leaves the sport in a blaze of glory before he/she turns 18.

walshb

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

Or another way of looking at it. With adequate talent and lots of over training at a young age you can ensure your child leaves the sport in a blaze of glory before he/she turns 18.

That can happen, and I am sure it has. But plenty of examples to the contrary. Start em young I say, and work em hard!

Chivito550

This girl and her father mightn't be thinking about future Olympic Games. Perhaps they are taking the Macaulay Culkin approach of peaking early, and living off the royalties! :P

TRR_the_turd

walshb wrote: »

That can happen, and I am sure it has. But plenty of examples to the contrary. Start em young I say, and work em hard!

I'm sure there are examples to the contrary in athletics but from my experience they are few and far between.

walshb

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

I'm sure there are examples to the contrary in athletics but from my experience they are few and far between.

I am sure there are examples where many greats from the past could attest to what this girl has done, and is doing. Hard work and dedication is always needed for the greats in sport. Seb Coe and some others would have trained like demons from a young age. And they didn't burn out, they shone brighter for it. I'll be keeping an eye out for this young girl and her progress.

Dubgal72

walshb wrote: »

I am sure there are examples where many greats from the past could attest to what this girl has done, and is doing. Hard work and dedication is always needed for the greats in sport. Seb Coe and some others would have trained like demons from a young age. And they didn't burn out, they shone brighter for it. I'll be keeping an eye out for this young girl and her progress.

Sorry walshie, the bulk of Sonia's training when young was running barefoot around the fields and ringing people's doorbells 'haring away helter skelter before they could answer'. There was a Coe influence, inasmuch as her coach, Sean Kennedy, was obsessed by the science of running and used anything written by Peter Coe - Seb's dad - on the subject. Sonia did many of Seb's sessions but frequently on grass, on her own and distances estimated.

Not only that, but Sonia did not shine in her early teens. One of the reasons was that there was such an immense talent pool of female runners in Munster at the time. One of her early ambitions was to beat a girl from Grange Fermoy, Diane Mc Carthy, and then the better known Anita Philpott. Yes, she had some outstanding wins at senior level while still a junior and u/23 but was 22 when representing her country at her first Olympics, Barcelona in 1992. She ran superbly but was inexperienced at this level tactically and did not medal. She came through the ranks steadily and shone through hard hard hard work as a mature athlete in her 20s.

Coe was another slow burner, relatively. Compared to Ovett, a year older and much more mature physically, Coe was completely overshadowed by Ovett who competed in his first Olympics in Montreal in 1976. In the same year, Coe made a breakthrough in the 800m, running 1:47:xx, an improvement of three seconds as a result of shifting a training emphasis away from 5k.
Coe did not begin to draw international attention until age 19 when he nearly outran John Walker to the line in a small meeting in Gateshead in August of that year. Still aged 19/20.

Not 12.

walshb

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Sorry walshie, the bulk of Sonia's training when young was running barefoot around the fields and ringing people's doorbells 'haring away helter skelter before they could answer'. There was a Coe influence, inasmuch as her coach, Sean Kennedy, was obsessed by the science of running and used anything written by Peter Coe - Seb's dad - on the subject. Sonia did many of Seb's sessions but frequently on grass, on her own and distances estimated.

Not only that, but Sonia did not shine in her early teens. One of the reasons was that there was such an immense talent pool of female runners in Munster at the time. One of her early ambitions was to beat a girl from Grange Fermoy, Diane Mc Carthy, and then the better known Anita Philpott. Yes, she had some outstanding wins at senior level while still a junior and u/23 but was 22 when representing her country at her first Olympics, Barcelona in 1992. She ran superbly but was inexperienced at this level tactically and did not medal. She came through the ranks steadily and shone through hard hard hard work as a mature athlete in her 20s.

Coe was another slow burner, relatively. Compared to Ovett, a year older and much more mature physically, Coe was completely overshadowed by Ovett who competed in his first Olympics in Montreal in 1976. In the same year, Coe made a breakthrough in the 800m, running 1:47:xx, an improvement of three seconds as a result of shifting a training emphasis away from 5k.
Coe did not begin to draw international attention until age 19 when he nearly outran John Walker to the line in a small meeting in Gateshead in August of that year. Still aged 19/20.

Not 12.

I aprreciate all that information, but what does it tell us as regards a person aged 12 who is phenomenally good? It's either she keeps getting better or she doesn't. One or the other.

Track and field is liklely littered with many child/teen prodigies who were exceptional all the way through their lives, and who contined on up until adulthood, and who then had success as elite athletes. Same with many other sports.

Do they all burn out due to what they are doing or did when young? No. That's the only pertinent and relevant point here. Can you burn them out by over doing it? Yes. In this girl's case we cannot know until the future. Not every person reacts the same to hard work and dedication and being really pushed. Some flourish and some fail.

BTW, someone aged 12 has to be the best. She's the one. Do you think from what you know of her that she will burn out come adulthood?

Chivito550

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Sorry walshie, the bulk of Sonia's training when young was running barefoot around the fields and ringing people's doorbells 'haring away helter skelter before they could answer'. There was a Coe influence, inasmuch as her coach, Sean Kennedy, was obsessed by the science of running and used anything written by Peter Coe - Seb's dad - on the subject. Sonia did many of Seb's sessions but frequently on grass, on her own and distances estimated.

Not only that, but Sonia did not shine in her early teens. One of the reasons was that there was such an immense talent pool of female runners in Munster at the time. One of her early ambitions was to beat a girl from Grange Fermoy, Diane Mc Carthy, and then the better known Anita Philpott. Yes, she had some outstanding wins at senior level while still a junior and u/23 but was 22 when representing her country at her first Olympics, Barcelona in 1992. She ran superbly but was inexperienced at this level tactically and did not medal. She came through the ranks steadily and shone through hard hard hard work as a mature athlete in her 20s.

Coe was another slow burner, relatively. Compared to Ovett, a year older and much more mature physically, Coe was completely overshadowed by Ovett who competed in his first Olympics in Montreal in 1976. In the same year, Coe made a breakthrough in the 800m, running 1:47:xx, an improvement of three seconds as a result of shifting a training emphasis away from 5k.
Coe did not begin to draw international attention until age 19 when he nearly outran John Walker to the line in a small meeting in Gateshead in August of that year. Still aged 19/20.

Not 12.

While I agree with your general point, it is worth noting that at the Barcelona Olympics, Sonia finished behind 2 Russians, one who tested positive the following year, and the other who died young, quite possibly as a result of doping. Despite making poor tactical errors, Sonia should have been a silver medalist in her first Olympics, if everyone played by the rules.

Also in 1991 she won gold and silver at the World University Games.

Dubgal72

walshb wrote: »

I aprreciate all that information, but what does it tell us as regards a person aged 12 who is phenomenally good? It's either she keeps getting better or she doesn't. One or the other.

Track and field is liklely littered with many child/teen prodigies who were exceptional all the way through their lives, and who contined on up until adulthood, and who then had success as elite athletes. Same with many other sports.

Do they all burn out due to what they are doing or did when young? No. That's the only pertinent and relevant point here. Can you burn them out by over doing it? Yes. In this girl's case we cannot know until the future. Not every person reacts the same to hard work and dedication and being really pushed. Some flourish and some fail.

BTW, someone aged 12 has to be the best. She's the one. Do you think from what you know of her that she will burn out come adulthood?

We've had some discussion recently about the Swedish attritional model and it filtering down to juvenile level. To my mind, this is an extreme example of this approach and I wouldn't like to see it encouraged via the lauding of this type of record. I am not suggesting that anyone here is doing that.

I believe that the best and most effective form of learning takes place through play. High intensity, structured and formalised training is not play. A 12 year old is still a child. children learn best through play, etc etc.

I only have anecdotal evidence atm however, the overall impression I am forming of those who have excelled in track running are those who had a wide experience of sports from a young age and specialised in their chosen field aged around 14-15.

She is phenomenally good but it is not "natural talent". She is being over trained if the fb posts are anything to go by. I had a look at these records a year or so ago. None of the names jumped out as carrying on their 'promise' to maturity or did I miss any? Edit: yes, I certainly did however the names I recognise now, after a year of catching up on athletics are all 15/16 and older, i.e., approaching physical and mental maturity. Many of the very well known names were 17, 18 and 19.

I don't think she'll last. It's not just about the physical aspect. The mental aspect of training so hard takes its toll. She is so young, imo it is unsustainable throughout puberty. If, as you suggest, she is innately talented, it will still manifest aged 18-20. If it is hard work, she can work that hard aged 18-20 and not suffer the physical and mental stresses while undergoing huge changes during puberty.

Chivito550 wrote: »

While I agree with your general point, it is worth noting that at the Barcelona Olympics, Sonia finished behind 2 Russians, one who tested positive the following year, and the other who died young, quite possibly as a result of doping. Despite making poor tactical errors, Sonia should have been a silver medalist in her first Olympics, if everyone played by the rules.

Also in 1991 she won gold and silver at the World University Games.

Yes, I agree that she was world class at this age - and the previous year. And the point I want to emphasise that these achievements were as a relatively mature athlete, not a 12 year old.

walshb

Dubgal72 wrote: »

She is phenomenally good but it is not "natural talent". She is being over trained if the fb posts are anything to go by. I had a look at these records a year or so ago. None of the names jumped out as carrying on their 'promise' to maturity or did I miss any?
.

You cannot know this. She has to have some natural talent here. No amount of hard work can bring WRs. There needs to be huge natural ability there to begin with. What is overtrained? It's actually quite subjective. I know this myself from years of training. I trained every day as a young child/teen. I never felt I was over trained. But to some I was. I was not alone in this regime, and I still had what I would consider a very good childhood and upbringing.

Time will tell here. At this stage she has all the makings of a potential great track athlete. That, of course is not guaranteed, as there are other variables to consider. Let's not make out that she is alone in what she is doing. There very well could be many doing the same, and enjoying it too, across all sports. That needs to be looked at. Maybe she likes it, and is as pushy for it as the adults.

I would just hope that she is loved and looked after and cared for, as well as trained "hard and effectively" to become a great athlete. There's 24 hours in a day. Plenty of time to do other stuff!

walshb

Dubgal72 wrote: »

If, as you suggest, she is innately talented, it will still manifest aged 18-20. If it is hard work, she can work that hard aged 18-20 and not suffer the physical and mental stresses while undergoing huge changes during puberty.

Natural talent can and is displayed at various stages in a person's life. To me she is displaying it right now.

TRR_the_turd

walshb wrote: »

Natural talent can and is displayed at various stages in a person's life. To me she is displaying it right now.

Natural talent can also be burnt out at an early age! Perhaps she is at her physical peak right now, but I seriously doubt it!

TRR_the_turd

walshb wrote: »

You cannot know this. She has to have some natural talent here. No amount of hard work can bring WRs. There needs to be huge natural ability there to begin with. What is overtrained? It's actually quite subjective. I know this myself from years of training. I trained every day as a young child/teen. I never felt I was over trained. But to some I was. I was not alone in this regime, and I still had what I would consider a very good childhood and upbringing.

Time will tell here. At this stage she has all the makings of a potential great track athlete. That, of course is not guaranteed, as there are other variables to consider. Let's not make out that she is alone in what she is doing. There very well could be many doing the same, and enjoying it too, across all sports. That needs to be looked at. Maybe she likes it, and is as pushy for it as the adults.

I would just hope that she is loved and looked after and cared for, as well as trained "hard and effectively" to become a great athlete. There's 24 hours in a day. Plenty of time to do other stuff!

I also trained every day as a kid but it wasn't specif and focused on breaking childhood records. Can you think of any child athlete in athletics who broke child world records and is still competing to a similar level? Just to back up what you are saying!

Dubgal72

walshb wrote: »

Natural talent can and is displayed at various stages in a person's life. To me she is displaying it right now.

I don't believe in natural talent. We need to be a bit more specific when using this general magic wand phrase.

Dig a bit deeper and 'natural talent' is the outcome of a recipe of numerous factors, including physical build suited to the distance, muscle fibres, time and intensity spent perfecting your chosen speciality, diet, mental approach, support network and activities which support the development of your chosen speciality.

I may be wrong but it looks like this young athlete has the intensity all wrong too soon. Could be like a cake, done on the outside but soggy on the inside. It will collapse when taken out of the oven. You could be right. Let's resume this conversation in 10 years time although I suspect we could resume the conversation in five years.

Remind me again why your perceived over training led to you dropping out of boxing? Not being smart, honestly, I just can't be assed digging up the spotlight thread where you talked about this.

walshb

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

I also trained every day as a kid but it wasn't specif and focused on breaking childhood records. Can you think of any child athlete in athletics who broke child world records and is still competing to a similar level? Just to back up what you are saying!

Whether I can name some or not it doesn't mean I can/can't back up anything. It doesn't work that way. All the greats through the years across all sports were great, or close to it during all stages of their lives.

You can assume/bet that all (or most) of the great athletes through the years were also doing very well as young kids and teens. They didn't just suddenly become great, post teen years. Whether or not they were breaking WRs is irrelevant.

This girl is no differnet really. Whether or not she becomes a great as an adult is still to be answered. Is she going to burn out, and is she being over worked? This kind of certainty of knowing the answer here is off the mark.

walshb

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Remind me again why your perceived over training led to you dropping out of boxing? Not being smart, honestly, I just can't be assed digging up the spotlight thread where you talked about this.

I can't recall? Are you saying that I may have said I dropped out of boxing due to over training? I don't think I said that on that thread. Anyway, it was not the reason. I trained hard pretty much every day, and I still had time for many other activities. And boxing training is every bit as intense as track/running training.

2024 and 2028 will tell us, as will WCs through the next few years. But, even if we do not hear from her, it may be nothing to do with her being burnt out due to being "pushed too hard."

TRR_the_turd

walshb wrote: »

Whether I can name some or not it doesn't mean I can/can't back up anything. It doesn't work that way. All the greats through the years across all sports were great, or close to it during all stages of their lives.

You can assume/bet that all (or most) of the great athletes through the years were also doing very well as young kids and teens. They didn't just suddenly become great, post teen years. Whether or not they were breaking WRs is irrelevant.

This girl is no differnet really. Whether or not she becomes a great as an adult is still to be answered. Is she going to burn out, and is she being over worked? This kind of certainty of knowing the answer here is off the mark.

It's as if you are arguing just for the sake of it .....

This girl is not a teen. She is 12. Demfad has stated her training seems to highly focused on these records. take it from someone who ran with and against young kids who were driven by coaches for times and medals at a young age, it's not a good thing! Unlike you I could provide lots of examples of burn out. So much so that the kids left sport of any kind all together.

walshb

TRR, you replied to my first post on the thread. My post was short and sweet. It was you who created this particular discussion, or as you seem to see it, argument.

Itziger

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

It's as if you are arguing just for the sake of it .....

This girl is not a teen. She is 12. Demfad has stated her training seems to highly focused on these records. take it from someone who ran with and against young kids who were driven by coaches for times and medals at a young age, it's not a good thing! Unlike you I could provide lots of examples of burn out. So much so that the kids left sport of any kind all together.

Now I have to clean the coffee off the laptop. Thanks man.