New Swarms

dto001 · 15-06-2016 4:41pm #1

Hi,

About 2 weeks ago I had 2 swarms from one of my hives I collected both and put one in a Nuc box and the other in a brood box(this was a small swarm I added a frame of honey with bees) and moved them a few miles away. I checked both this morning and I can't find either queens and there are a lot less bees in both and no brood or eggs but they are staying in the Nuc box and brood box. Is there a possibility the swarms will survive? They have started making honey. Any advice on what to do would be appreciated.

Cheers

yosemitesam1 · 15-06-2016 5:24pm

did the hive have a virgin queen heading it? is there any hives near the where you put the swarms?

dto001 · 15-06-2016 7:23pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

did the hive have a virgin queen heading it? is there any hives near the where you put the swarms?

The original hive was from an overwintered Nuc and the queen was not a virgin so I assume she went with the first swarm but the second was a new queen as I have seen when I collected them.
I checked the original hive and there is one sealed Queen cell but I don't want to kill it as I cannot find the Queen.

Also the original hive has gotten very aggressive (but it could be my handling of them) so I assume the original queen has left.

To the best of my knowledge there were no hives where I moved them.

Cheers

brianmc · 16-06-2016 8:53am

dto001 wrote: »

The original hive was from an overwintered Nuc and the queen was not a virgin so I assume she went with the first swarm but the second was a new queen as I have seen when I collected them.
I checked the original hive and there is one sealed Queen cell but I don't want to kill it as I cannot find the Queen.

Also the original hive has gotten very aggressive (but it could be my handling of them) so I assume the original queen has left.

To the best of my knowledge there were no hives where I moved them.

Cheers

Was the original queen clipped?

Either way, your original hive is almost certainly queenless. Let them raise that new queen.

One or both of the new hives from the swarms will have virgin queens that will take a couple of weeks to get mated and start laying. Virgin queens are smaller than when they are mated and mature... it can make them very hard to spot sometimes...

I would say that if you can't see any new eggs/brood in the new colonies three weeks after they swarmed you may begin to wonder whats going on.

yosemitesam1 · 16-06-2016 8:57am

dto001 wrote: »

The original hive was from an overwintered Nuc and the queen was not a virgin so I assume she went with the first swarm but the second was a new queen as I have seen when I collected them.
I checked the original hive and there is one sealed Queen cell but I don't want to kill it as I cannot find the Queen.

Also the original hive has gotten very aggressive (but it could be my handling of them) so I assume the original queen has left.

To the best of my knowledge there were no hives where I moved them.

Cheers

did you leave the box there for a while to collect stragglers or just shake the swarm in and take it away? id say the two swarms were actually the one swarm and should be combined.

brianmc · 16-06-2016 9:17am

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

did you leave the box there for a while to collect stragglers or just shake the swarm in and take it away? id say the two swarms were actually the one swarm and should be combined.

Hmmm...

dto001, when you say there is one sealed queen cell in the hive...

Were there others? Were they being drawn out still, or had some of them already emerged? Did you break down any queen cells?

dto001 · 16-06-2016 9:19am

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

did you leave the box there for a while to collect stragglers or just shake the swarm in and take it away? id say the two swarms were actually the one swarm and should be combined.

I put them in the hive and left it there untill dark then sealed it up and moved it. The swarms were 3 days apart so I assumed they were different swarms. Both swarms are beside each other would they not combine naturally if there was no queen in one?

yosemitesam1 · 16-06-2016 9:24am

dto001 wrote: »

I put them in the hive and left it there untill dark then sealed it up and moved it. The swarms were 3 days apart so I assumed they were different swarms. Both swarms are beside each other would they not combine naturally if there was no queen in one?

sorry I thought both swarms left at same time so don't combine them, chances are its 2 virgins in those hives so give them another week or two anyway to start laying

dto001 · 16-06-2016 9:24am

brianmc wrote: »

Was the original queen clipped?

Either way, your original hive is almost certainly queenless. Let them raise that new queen.

One or both of the new hives from the swarms will have virgin queens that will take a couple of weeks to get mated and start laying. Virgin queens are smaller than when they are mated and mature... it can make them very hard to spot sometimes...

I would say that if you can't see any new eggs/brood in the new colonies three weeks after they swarmed you may begin to wonder whats going on.

I have read somewhere that if the queen is not mated in 10 days then she becomes a drone layer so I was just worried I'll give them another few weeks so

dto001 · 16-06-2016 9:27am

brianmc wrote: »

Hmmm...

dto001, when you say there is one sealed queen cell in the hive...

Were there others? Were they being drawn out still, or had some of them already emerged? Did you break down any queen cells?

I opened the original hive after the second swarm and counted 4 queen cells yesterday I counted only one but could see a couple queen cells that were opened. (But can't find them) I didn't break any down.

yosemitesam1 · 16-06-2016 9:37am

dto001 wrote: »

I opened the original hive after the second swarm and counted 4 queen cells yesterday I counted only one but could see a couple queen cells that were opened. (But can't find them) I didn't break any down.

go through the hive with the queen cells and leave one so you don't lose anymore casts.

dto001 wrote: »

I have read somewhere that if the queen is not mated in 10 days then she becomes a drone layer so I was just worried I'll give them another few weeks so

I wouldn't be sure about the exact dates but have often had queens here that would have been 4-5 weeks old when they started laying so don't worry yet. Check with a test frame of eggs in 10 days if she's still not laying.

brianmc · 16-06-2016 9:39am

dto001 wrote: »

I opened the original hive after the second swarm and counted 4 queen cells yesterday I counted only one but could see a couple queen cells that were opened. (But can't find them) I didn't break any down.

In the original colony, it's hard to say at this point so...

There may be a virgin queen or two running around in there already with another one to emerge...

In theory they could produce more casts.

OR... at this point the colony is probably quite small and disinclined to swarm again. In the absence of being able to check thoroughly whether there is a virgin queen in there I would be tempted to leave them to it. You could possibly get another small cast or two but they won't leave themselves queenless.

Again... you'll have to wait at least two weeks, maybe three before you'll see any sign of eggs and new brood.

brianmc · 16-06-2016 9:43am

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

go through the hive with the queen cells and leave one so you don't lose anymore casts.

I've contradicted you! :pac:

There's only once cell left to emerge. There may be a virgin queen already running around in there... and they're hard to spot for the inexperienced eye.

dto001, I'd say if you're confident about checking for a virgin queen and are confident about spotting queen cells, etc. then go with yosemitesam1's advice.

If you're not feeling that confident about figuring it out, I'd suggest that you could be as well off with my advice.

I wouldn't be sure about the exact dates but have often had queens here that would have been 4-5 weeks old when they started laying so don't worry yet. Check with a test frame of eggs in 10 days if she's still not laying.

Yep! Especially now that the weather has turned it can slow down this phase a lot!

yosemitesam1 · 16-06-2016 10:05am

Is it there was 4 queen cells with only 1 sealed the rest emerged or is there 4 qcells that are yet to emerge?

dto001 · 16-06-2016 8:04pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Is it there was 4 queen cells with only 1 sealed the rest emerged or is there 4 qcells that are yet to emerge?

There was 4 sealed queen cells when I checked after the swarms when I checked yesterday there was only one.

I actually thought they were going to swarm today but the wind picked up and they went back in.

welsummer · 22-06-2016 7:10am

has she come into lay yet

dto001 · 23-06-2016 4:58pm

Just opened up the hives the first swarm has a handful of bees left and no larvae
The second has about 2 frames of bees left but no larvae.
And the original hive is full of bees but no larvae. They are still bringing pollen but look to be eating the honey in the brood box (heads stuck in the cells) there is still one queen cell left.
I have no idea what is going on any ideas?

Effects · 23-06-2016 9:52pm

I wouldn't be opening the the two recent swarm hives. It takes time to mate and come into lay.

Did you put the swarms onto foundation or drawn frames?

It's possible you missed a swarm with the original queen and she's off somewhere else.

A prime swarm is usually around day 8 and a cast would be 6 days later (day 14). So if you had swarms 3 days apart it sounds a little off.

Where are you based? I totally understand the stress of this happening!

dto001 · 24-06-2016 10:12am

Effects wrote: »

I wouldn't be opening the the two recent swarm hives. It takes time to mate and come into lay.

Did you put the swarms onto foundation or drawn frames?

It's possible you missed a swarm with the original queen and she's off somewhere else.

A prime swarm is usually around day 8 and a cast would be 6 days later (day 14). So if you had swarms 3 days apart it sounds a little off.

Where are you based? I totally understand the stress of this happening!

I put the swarms on a mixture of both drawn and new foundation.

I'm more worried about the original hive at this stage as there is no larvae or brood in it. Should I put a frame of larvae in it or leave it alone.
Looks like no honey this yearðŸ˜Œ

Based in north Tipp

brianmc · 24-06-2016 10:14am

dto001 wrote: »

Just opened up the hives the first swarm has a handful of bees left and no larvae
The second has about 2 frames of bees left but no larvae.
And the original hive is full of bees but no larvae. They are still bringing pollen but look to be eating the honey in the brood box (heads stuck in the cells) there is still one queen cell left.
I have no idea what is going on any ideas?

As Effects said, the two swarms may still need some time. Especially with the recent damp weather.

That said, I wouldn't be very optimistic about a handful of bees being strong in time for winter. It may be best to merge them into the other swarm.

The original hive... that queen cell isn't going to emerge at this stage but I still suspect that there is a virgin queen in there too that hasn't come in to lay yet.

Hold tight for another week or so in my opinion.

Effects · 24-06-2016 1:44pm

Give it another week and then see. It's really hard to wait when there's a problem with a hive but it's the best thing to do.

In the mean time you could work on lining up a replacement queen from a breeder. Isn't Aoife NicGiollacoda in Tipp? Not sure if she would be sold out by now though.

dto001 · 24-06-2016 6:44pm

Effects wrote: »

Give it another week and then see. It's really hard to wait when there's a problem with a hive but it's the best thing to do.

In the mean time you could work on lining up a replacement queen from a breeder. Isn't Aoife NicGiollacoda in Tipp? Not sure if she would be sold out by now though.

The problem is I'm away for 2 weeks on Tuesday. Was thinking if nothing happens by Monday to move a frame of larvae from my other hive and see if they bring on a queen.
What do you think?

dto001 · 24-06-2016 6:44pm

Effects wrote: »

Give it another week and then see. It's really hard to wait when there's a problem with a hive but it's the best thing to do.

In the mean time you could work on lining up a replacement queen from a breeder. Isn't Aoife NicGiollacoda in Tipp? Not sure if she would be sold out by now though.

The problem is I'm away for 2 weeks on Tuesday. Was thinking if nothing happens by Monday to move a frame of larvae from my other hive and see if they bring on a queen.
What do you think?

Effects · 26-06-2016 1:39pm

Yeah, could be worth trying that.

kk09 · 08-05-2017 8:50am

Hi,
We were out in our back garden yesterday evening and a huge swarm of I think wasp like things flew through. The noise was huge and there were thousands. You could hear them coming for a good 15 seconds and then it took about the same them for them to fly through.
They complete ignored us and kept going. Seemed like there were migrating somewhere. Very strange and can't remember anything like it before.

Can anyone shed some light on what they were, where they were coming from and where they were going?

Thanks

Effects · 08-05-2017 9:09am

They were most likely a swarm of honey bees. They would have come from a hive in someones garden. With the recent weather they are building up fast and the hive fills up with brood and honey, triggering them to swarm. The queen lays new queen eggs and will leave with all the flying bees. The will move on to what they deem to be a suitable new home. A cavity somewhere, off the ground and easily defended.

With more people keeping bees these days it's a more common thing to see. Bees are swarming early this year as well due to the weather.

kk09 · 08-05-2017 10:21pm

Effects wrote: »

They were most likely a swarm of honey bees. They would have come from a hive in someones garden. With the recent weather they are building up fast and the hive fills up with brood and honey, triggering them to swarm. The queen lays new queen eggs and will leave with all the flying bees. The will move on to what they deem to be a suitable new home. A cavity somewhere, off the ground and easily defended.

With more people keeping bees these days it's a more common thing to see. Bees are swarming early this year as well due to the weather.

Can't imagine anyone having this many in their back garden. Holy s#$t if they did!!!

Effects · 09-05-2017 9:27am

They would actually! I've had mine there in the past. I've had swarms but luckily I get on ok with my neighbours and if it happens I get a call.
One time I heard them when I was leaving at the front of the house, ran out the back, and managed to get them into another hive before they disappeared altogether.

New Swarms

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