Refund of 200EUR Civil Registration Marriage Fee

balbeclassie

Hi all,

My fiancé is a non-EU national, and wanting to getting married in Ireland this year, we started the civil marriage application process with the HSE in January and duly paid the €200 notification fee.
However, despite the fact that the mandatory three-month notification period has long passed, there is absolutely no visibility on us receiving a wedding date from the HSE registrar. Indeed, not alone is the registrar unable to provide a marriage date, but he is even unable to provide any visibility as to when he might be able to provide us with a date. He is citing continuing internal issues relating to recent legislation regarding the interviewing of foreign nationals as a reason.

I appreciate that this legislative change may be causing issues for registrars, but the notification fee of €200 is not an insignificant sum, and we paid this in good faith and with the not unreasonable expectation that HSE would fulfill its duties within a reasonable timeframe. This is not happening, so we informed the registrar that we would like a refund of our €200 fee (as we’ll complete the marriage process abroad instead). Of course, this request has been denied, with the HSE saying that this fee is non-refundable. Given that the HSE has a state monopoly in providing this service, I don’t believe that this non-refund policy is fair – if I had a choice of service providers here, then I feel I would have less to complain about. I feel that this is a case of a service provider not being able to provide their service in a reasonable manner, whilst all the time maintaining that they don’t have to issue a refund.

Has anyone else experienced this?
Any stories out there of successfully demanding a refund of the €200 notification fee

Atomic Pineapple

As you say it is non refundable as described here

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/1/bdm/MarriagesinIreland/Fees.html

If you feel you haven't been treated properly then I suggest you contact a solicitor to discuss your options.

PhoenixParker

I'm confused here.

You went to your marriage notification appointment, handed over all your paperwork and paid the fee.
What did they say then? Are they satisfied that you gave valid notification? Are they awaiting more paperwork?

Based on this
https://www.welfare.ie/en/pressoffice/Pages/pr180815.aspx

If they haven't issued your marriage registration form, then it seems like they should have referred it up a level to a Superintendent Registrar
Has that happened?

balbeclassie

Thanks guys for your replies...

Just to fill in the gaps some more...

As per the civil marriage process, I completed the notification process in January and paid the accompanying €200 fee. The registrar informed me that the mandatory 3-month waiting period would commence at that point, and that future dates would be organised to finalise the documentation (original passports, birth-certs etc), the pre-marriage interviews, and the marriage itself. I was told at this point that there was a delay in the system due to new legislation, and to be a little patient with them. We had already suggested that we were flexible with a marriage date for sometime during the summer months, and so we left it at that. So far, so good....

Just as the three-month mandatory period was closing out, I contacted the registrar again to ask about the dates, and he informed me that not alone was he was not in a position to give me any dates for interviews or marriage, but that he couldn’t give me any visibility on when he might be able to give me dates. Apparently, the backlog was getting worse and worse with time.

At this point, I wrote a letter to the Superintendent stating that whilst I was sympathetic to their internal issues, it was not reasonable of the HSE to expect couples such as my fiancé and I to be happy to remain in a state of indefinite limbo without any commitment from the HSE to resolving this issue within a reasonable timeframe. We informed the Superintendent that it was now our intention to carry out the civil ceremony abroad, and I asked for the notification fee to be refunded, stating that in the absence of being able to provide any visibility on providing the service that it is not justifiable for the HSE to maintain that the fee is non-refundable. Needless to say, I received a letter in reply stating that the money would not be refunded.

The HSE, in my opinion, have not been able to provide the promised service in a reasonable timeframe, and whilst the registrar is sorry about it, they are quite happy to hide behind the “the fee is not refundable” mantra.

My issue here is that given that the HSE has a monopoly on this service, how can there be no right of recourse? €200 is not an insignificant amount after all. Given the superintendent’s stance, where can I turn to now to get some recourse? – the Ombudsman?, the Consumer Association of Ireland? (since I’m not happy with the service provided), etc
With a wedding coming up, we have more pressing things to think about.. However, I’m not sure I want to let this go without attempting to get some satisfaction. So, any suggestions/past experiences would be much appreciated…

Many thanks in advance……

lazygal

They told you it was non refundable, so there it stands. Plenty of services require non refundable payments. Where did you register that they couldn't give you a date? We registered in Dublin, got a date for six months later, ok we were limited but we took the handiest date.

Faith

Is your main issue that you're seeking a refund, OP? As opposed to a long delay in setting a wedding date? If so, this seems like more of a Consumer Issues thread, and I can move it to that forum if you'd like?

Gatica

lazygal wrote: »

They told you it was non refundable, so there it stands. Plenty of services require non refundable payments. Where did you register that they couldn't give you a date? We registered in Dublin, got a date for six months later, ok we were limited but we took the handiest date.

The fiance is a foreign national. I'm sure that's the main crux of the matter and interviews and proofs of relationship will be different to an EU or Irish national, which are more straightforward.

OP, I would try to get in touch with the Ombudsman. That's the only avenue I can see unless you wanna employ a solicitor, which will probably cost you more than you'll get back from the HSE.

balbeclassie

Thanks Gatica,

I think that's the most likely option for trying to get some redress here... There's also the Consumer Association of Ireland (since the registrar is not able to provide a service in a timely manner)... As for going with a lawyer, my 200EUR dispute will be dwarfed very quickly by legal fees --- the law is a law upon itself after all....

intheclouds

Contact the office of the current Minister for Health and ask him to clarify why money is being taken and no service provided by the HSE.

lazygal

Gatica wrote: »

The fiance is a foreign national. I'm sure that's the main crux of the matter and interviews and proofs of relationship will be different to an EU or Irish national, which are more straightforward.

OP, I would try to get in touch with the Ombudsman. That's the only avenue I can see unless you wanna employ a solicitor, which will probably cost you more than you'll get back from the HSE.

My now husband wasn't born in Ireland or the EU and this didn't delay the process. From the OP's posts it seems the backlog was about celebrants not processing their eligibility to marry, maybe I'm wrong.

I think this comes down to the definition of 'timely'-I don't think the HSE guarantess you'll be able to access a wedding celebrant within X number of weeks/months/years.

Milly33

Sounds very annoying OP.. I get they stated it was non-refundable but you would think in fairness they would do their jobs... It is a wedding, a big part of you life and they seem to be taking it a little blasé... I must say we dealt with the Cork HSE and they were fantastic no delays or anything..

Would ye need to pay this fee as such to be registered as married in Ireland ? just a question. Like if ye went abroad to get married would ye still have to pay this fee when ye get back.. Or is the marriage cert from abroad enough?

Have you actually gone down to the office also, perhaps it might help to go in and explain

Mrs OBumble

Sounds to me like blatant racism on the part of an Irish public servant who cannot be a*** doing their job. I'm sure they've set dates for lots of Irish couples in the meantime. I'd be going to a journalist, myself.

I appreciate that the fee is normally non-refundable, but where it's due to HSE incompetence rather than issues from the couples, there can and should be an exception.

intheclouds

lazygal wrote: »

My now husband wasn't born in Ireland or the EU and this didn't delay the process. From the OP's posts it seems the backlog was about celebrants not processing their eligibility to marry, maybe I'm wrong.

I think this comes down to the definition of 'timely'-I don't think the HSE guarantess you'll be able to access a wedding celebrant within X number of weeks/months/years.

The OP said that this issue is due to a legislative change regarding interviewing of foreign nationals.

Perhaps your own wedding was prior to this legislative change?

A journalist might not be a bad idea.

Faith

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Sounds to me like blatant racism on the part of an Irish public servant who cannot be a*** doing their job. I'm sure they've set dates for lots of Irish couples in the meantime. I'd be going to a journalist, myself.

Racism.

Really.

You see no issue throwing out an accusation like that based purely on the information that the fiance in question is not from the EU? Talk about a hysterical reaction :rolleyes:.

lazygal

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Sounds to me like blatant racism on the part of an Irish public servant who cannot be a*** doing their job. I'm sure they've set dates for lots of Irish couples in the meantime. I'd be going to a journalist, myself.

I appreciate that the fee is normally non-refundable, but where it's due to HSE incompetence rather than issues from the couples, there can and should be an exception.

What does race have to do with it? Not everyone born outside the EU or Ireland is a different race to Irish citizens. I'd imagine someone going in all guns blazing about racism would get short shrift.

balbeclassie

Hi folks,

I can absolutely state for certain that this is not a race issue. In truth, I would venture that this issue has some grounding in general HSE incompetence, but is largely due to the increased work-load that registrars now have due to interviews now being a mandatory part of the marriage process following the recent legislative change.

I am of course sympathetic to this work-load increase, and I have nothing but good things to say about the registrar who I have been dealing with. However, the public deserves a better service from management in the HSE or the Dept of Health than a shrug of the shoulders and a "like it or leave it" attitude. My best guess (and it has to be 'my' guess, as the registrar refuses to give any estimate) is that we are presently looking at a 12-month wait (at least) for an interview and wedding date. I don't believe that is good enough, so after consulting with the Dept of Foreign Affairs, I've made all the necessary arrangements to get married abroad. My argument is that given that the HSE can't provide this service in a reasonable fashion at the moment, I think it's fair to ask the HSE for a refund.

My reason for starting this topic was to see if anyone else had a similar story, and if so, how was it resolved. I appreciate everyone's contributions on this, and I think the next step is to contact the Ombudsman (unless anyone wishes to venture any fresh avenues).. I'll keep you all posted..

Mrs OBumble

Faith wrote: »

Racism.

Really.

You see no issue throwing out an accusation like that based purely on the information that the fiance in question is not from the EU? Talk about a hysterical reaction :rolleyes:.

Accusation? No. It's a statement, because there's pretty clear evidence in the OP: Irish nationals can get appointments to marry (it would be all over the media if they couldn't), a couple with a non-EU non-national involved cannot - and cannot even be told when they can get an appointment.

The only thing that's unclear is if this is one rogue staff member not doing their job, or nationwide policy.

The latter is not impossible: I know of any least two government operational policies which say "If citizenship = Irish, then do <<favourable action>>, If not Irish then do <<less favourable action>>" There could easily be others.


Would it make you happier if I called it nationalality-based-discrimination instead of racism???



OP, I've had another thought: does your fiance's government have an embassy here? An official complaint to them about the Irish government's treatment of their citizens could be interesting. (Especially if they're from a country where lots of Irish people travel to.)

Faith

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Accusation? No. It's a statement, because there's pretty clear evidence in the OP: Irish nationals can get appointments to marry (it would be all over the media if they couldn't), a couple with a non-EU non-national involved cannot - and cannot even be told when they can get an appointment.

The OP has explicitly stated that it's not racism. He has explicitly stated that the reason is " continuing internal issues relating to recent legislation regarding the interviewing of foreign nationals". So I don't think there's any evidence of racism at all, and I think it's downright nasty to even claim that there is.

Mrs OBumble

Imagine if Australia said:

"Non-Aussie people living here, if you want to apply to marry, you must pay us $400. After that, we will give you an appointment to assess whether you can marry our not" - and then due to a change in policy refused to give out appointments or even to say when they would give them out.

I think that Irish people living in Australia would have no difficulty seeing what was going on, and naming that behaviour for what it is.

Why is it so much more difficult to see it here?

Racism is as much about institutional / systemic factors as it is about individuals.

If the Irish government has implemented a policy which requires extra steps for a group of people based on race/nationality/ethnicity do to something, and then failed to make it possible for them to even do the extra steps - then that's simply institutional racism, no matter how much you want to deny it.

Sapphire

lazygal wrote: »

I think this comes down to the definition of 'timely'-I don't think the HSE guarantess you'll be able to access a wedding celebrant within X number of weeks/months/years.

They should though. Getting married is a fundamental civil right and for the HSE to take their money, then tell you that they cant give you any date in the future and don't know how long it will be before they can give you an available date is a denial of the civil right to get married, isnt it?

Standard procedure is 3 months.
The OP applied in January.
Was told there was a backlog of a further 3 months. Making it a six month wait.
OP goes back after 6 months and told that the backlog is now even worse than before and they could be looking at 12 months. In December what will they say? Another three months? Six months? It's a legislative issue and isn't our Dail on their summer holidays?

To not get a refund when the service they require is indefinitely postponed due to internal processes is a shambles. To be denied their civil rights indefinitely by the HSE and being fobbed off with a "computer says no" disinterest is a bit concerning.

I wonder how many other couples are suffering this backlog? I think a journalist doing a bit of digging is a very good suggestion.

psycho-hope

Sapphire wrote: »

They should though. Getting married is a fundamental civil right and for the HSE to take their money, then tell you that they cant give you any date in the future and don't know how long it will be before they can give you an available date is a denial of the civil right to get married, isnt it?

Standard procedure is 3 months.
The OP applied in January.
Was told there was a backlog of a further 3 months. Making it a six month wait.
OP goes back after 6 months and told that the backlog is now even worse than before and they could be looking at 12 months. In December what will they say? Another three months? Six months? It's a legislative issue and isn't our Dail on their summer holidays?

To not get a refund when the service they require is indefinitely postponed due to internal processes is a shambles. To be denied their civil rights indefinitely by the HSE and being fobbed off with a "computer says no" disinterest is a bit concerning.

I wonder how many other couples are suffering this backlog? I think a journalist doing a bit of digging is a very good suggestion.

Tbh to me is sounds like a lazy registrar, i am going to have an interview too with my fiance as he is american and no resident here and the registrar in bray has said to us that she can work around our time frame once we get the stuff into her asap,

marquis0904

hi there.

we are going through the same situation too. my fiance who is an american is on his second trip out here only to be told that they do not know when the date can be set for.
this is so sad as we feel its segregation of the minority at its worst.

we gave our notice for marriage registration in November 2016, and we had our first meeting to submit all necessary documents in march.

we then got an interview last week Monday 19th June, but still got told that we would hear from our registrar 4 to 6 weeks from then. when we asked when can we get married we were told not to plan nothing till six weeks. remember my fiance has to plan ahead every time he comes out here because of work.


has there been any change in your situation?

psycho-hope

marquis0904 wrote: »

hi there.

we are going through the same situation too. my fiance who is an american is on his second trip out here only to be told that they do not know when the date can be set for.
this is so sad as we feel its segregation of the minority at its worst.

we gave our notice for marriage registration in November 2016, and we had our first meeting to submit all necessary documents in march.

we then got an interview last week Monday 19th June, but still got told that we would hear from our registrar 4 to 6 weeks from then. when we asked when can we get married we were told not to plan nothing till six weeks. remember my fiance has to plan ahead every time he comes out here because of work.


has there been any change in your situation?

Hi  not sure if that was directed at me or not, but here goes, We got married on the 15th of June and had our interview on the 9th in Joyce house. Our time line was , I sent all the info last september, in December I rang the hse in Bray as we had not heard and were told everything was approved, fast forward to March of this year and I got a phone call from the lady in Bray telling me the interview would be on the 9th of June but no time, then in late May I got a call from the lady in Joyce house confirming the details and asking what time we would like to be interviewed at. 
I do have to point out we werent using a interfaith minister as our celebrant and not a hse registrar, also I got the impression from the lady who interviewed us that she is the only one in Dublin who does the interviews, I may have took her up wrong tho.