Club Rule - Opinions Please

Nozebleed

My club recently decided to take action against players who fail to return their scorecards for whatevwr reason..the decided to implement the following rule ...id appreciate some opinion on this. Thanks.


As and from Fri.17th June,
ALL NON-RETURNED SCORE-CARDS WILL HAVE THEIR HANDICAP ADJUSTMENTS REVERSED AND DOUBLED.

At the present moment a non-returned card receives 0.1 increase in the competition result sheet.
The Handicap Secretary then has to remove this 0.1 manually.
Last Saturday we had 16 cards that were not returned.
From the 17th June these cards will receive a reduction of 0.2.

fred funk }{

Sounds like a great idea. Stops the HC builders.

Mantis Toboggan

Great way to get the handicap down! My own club issues warnings, two warnings then a competition ban!

Senecio

My opinion. I don't believe handicap manipulation is an effective measure against NCRs. I believe an NCR should receive a 0.1 increase as the player has most likely missed the buffer. I've never seen anyone shoot 39pts and choose not to return a card. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've not seen it.

The only effective means of discouraging NCRs that I've seen employed is removing playing privileges.

First offence - 0.1 back, no action taken
Second offence - 0.1 back, warning
Third offence - 0.1 back and a week ban from the time sheet

Increase the length of the ban for any further incidents. All of this needs to be written into the clubs constitution so everyone knows where they stand.

Senecio

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Sounds like a great idea. Stops the HC builders.

As per my point above. If someone makes a conscious decision not to return a card they've most likely missed the buffer and have "earned" that 0.1 back.

searay

Our club is trying to stamp down on it as well and will review the players handicap after 2 NCRs.

As I understand it , If players have very poor rounds and don't return their cards, it makes the CSS lower (in stroke play) than it should be and competition winners aren't cut as much as they would be with a proper CSS.

I was also told there were concerns of players signing in to competitions and not even teeing up in order to get 0.1s back.

Everybody needs to play by the rules for the system to work fully, and it's good to see the clubs taking action.

First Up

Excellent idea. I have great sympathy for the people who stay behind in the club to manage competition results. NRs are lazy and inconsiderate. If their better nature can't be appealed to, this approach will have the necessary effect.

slave1

Is this CONGU/GUI compliant i.e. the automatic 0.2 reduction.
Handicap adjustments should reflect ability and not housekeeping IMHO.

I'd prefer no handicap adjustment and a competition ban of a defined period personally.
As the guy who ends up doing the cards at our society outing you would be amazed at the state some of them are presented...

Jawgap

Senecio wrote: »

As per my point above. If someone makes a conscious decision not to return a card they've most likely missed the buffer and have "earned" that 0.1 back.

A more cynical interpretation might be that a player has scored in the buffer (or earned a cut) and decides they want the 0.1 back instead.

If they've earned the 0.1 back on the basis of their score, then no harm in submitting the card, if they don't they're only saving the few minutes it takes to enter it on the system.

Russman

Personally I reckon the vast majority of non returns are to avoid 0.1 rather than get a 0.1
Giving a cut of 0.2 would only encourage someone who wants to keep a low handicap to not return their bad scores. Think about it, a Cat 1 player wanting to hold onto his low handicap is heading for a bad score that would give him an increase of 0.1 whereas he could just not return his card and get cut. Madness IMHO.

Someone who is genuinely handicap building will make sure they're not close to the buffer. No point in leaving it to chance.

Golfgraffix

As handicap sec in in my own club the no returns were having an effect on the CSS, especially with the introductions of cat 4 golfers.

The committee implemented the below as a new competition rule. We had to take out sanction 4 as the GUI said we did not have the power to do so.

http://portmarnocklinksmembers.com/2016/03/14/new-policy-for-inputting-competition-scores-on-the-computer/

J

fred funk }{

Golfgraffix wrote: »

As handicap sec in in my own club the no returns were having an effect on the CSS, especially with the introductions of cat 4 golfers.

The committee implemented the below as a new competition rule. We had to take out sanction 4 as the GUI said we did not have the power to do so.

http://portmarnocklinksmembers.com/2016/03/14/new-policy-for-inputting-competition-scores-on-the-computer/

J

Has it improved the situation?

Golfgraffix

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Has it improved the situation?

Yes it went from two or three per comp to maybe one in every 4 and I most cases it's new members or guests.

J

fred funk }{

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Yes it went from two or three per comp to maybe one in every 4 and I most cases it's new members or guests.

J

Very good.

Dr.Rieux

What is the etiquette with withdrawing mid round and thus returning a card as a NR? I've had to do it once due to feeling unwell and wrote as such on the card after 6 and submitted it then.

Rikand

Nozebleed wrote: »

My club recently decided to take action against players who fail to return their scorecards for whatevwr reason..the decided to implement the following rule ...id appreciate some opinion on this. Thanks.


As and from Fri.17th June,
ALL NON-RETURNED SCORE-CARDS WILL HAVE THEIR HANDICAP ADJUSTMENTS REVERSED AND DOUBLED.

At the present moment a non-returned card receives 0.1 increase in the competition result sheet.
The Handicap Secretary then has to remove this 0.1 manually.
Last Saturday we had 16 cards that were not returned.
From the 17th June these cards will receive a reduction of 0.2.

As someone who is trying to get their handicap down, I would like to join your club

The Rape of Lucretia

Sounds highly illegal to be manipulating handicaps so. I would have thought the GUI would shoot this initiative down instantly. And force corrections to be made retrospectively to undo any reductions made in this manner.

Senna

Yes think the GUI would have something to say over this. Suspended privileges is a much better answer to the problem, as -0.2 for a NR is a huge reward for some people.

Golfgraffix

OP what does your club do if a category 1 golfer doesn't post his score ?

J

Jawgap

Rikand wrote: »

As someone who is trying to get their handicap down, I would like to join your club

Likewise!!

If our place introduced this I'd happily enter every competition for the next month (including the mid-week ones when I'm at work ) and gleefully watch my handicap implode!!!

I think the problem with a handicap penalty is that it's not a penalty for everyone - some will see it as such, but others will relish it!! It creates a perverse incentive.

Suspension from competitions would be more proportionate - or time based suspensions. For example someone gets a week off from comps for their first offence, 2 for the second, a month for the third......if they have any matchplay fixtures during the period they lose the match....maybe anyone registering 5 or 6 offences in a year is excluded from the club's 'majors' in the subsequent year?

Hoof Hearted2

It's a good suggestion, but it's also contrary to CONGU rules, you should report your club to the relevant GUI branch and inform your club of same.
While NR's are an issue, bar imposing local club competitons rules, e.g. suspension of playing rights for serial offenders, your club comp and handicap committees are not autonomous entities and must follow the same rules all other CONGU affilated clubs

Russman

Dr.Rieux wrote: »

What is the etiquette with withdrawing mid round and thus returning a card as a NR? I've had to do it once due to feeling unwell and wrote as such on the card after 6 and submitted it then.

In this case you submitted the card so its fine. Your score, if in strokes is an NR, or in stableford it might be 12 points, but the card was returned.

From my time doing comps a few years ago, the issue we had was that in the competition book you'd have say, 120 names, but maybe only 100 players entered on the computer and 100 scores returned on the computer. There was almost never a discrepancy with computer entries Vs scores returned on the computer, but almost always 20 names more in the competition book.

martinkop

OP, if your club has implemented this policy, I'd be very concerned about their ability to manage handicaps. This is a complete no-no for CONGU rules, and if they couldn't figure that out before implementing this rule, then you have to wonder.

Suspension of playing privileges is probably the best way to tackle NRs.

TLOA72

I would like this implemented in my club but with the addition of a ban as mentioned before of 1 week for each nr.
Having said that I had 9 NR last year so probably deserved a lifetime ban eek

mike12

TLOA72 wrote: »

I would like this implemented in my club but with the addition of a ban as mentioned before of 1 week for each nr.
Having said that I had 9 NR last year so probably deserved a lifetime ban eek

An nr means not handing in a card in strokes if u decide to not finish a hole u should still hand in the card.
They use clause 19 to calculate what score u would have had for handicap purposes.

Hoof Hearted2

Russman wrote: »

In this case you submitted the card so its fine. Your score, if in strokes is an NR, or in stableford it might be 12 points, but the card was returned.

From my time doing comps a few years ago, the issue we had was that in the competition book you'd have say, 120 names, but maybe only 100 players entered on the computer and 100 scores returned on the computer. There was almost never a discrepancy with computer entries Vs scores returned on the computer, but almost always 20 names more in the competition book.

In the case of the 20 missing cards in your example, they haven't signed in to the computer but have signed into the sign-in sheet, they aren't technically an NR.

Russman

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

In the case of the 20 missing cards in your example, they haven't signed in to the computer but have signed into the sign-in sheet, they aren't technically an NR.

I guess it depends on what is meant by NR, i.e. a score returned as an NR on the computer, or a card that simply isn't returned.
An NR that's entered on the computer is fine and afaik it goes into the CSS calculations, its the non-returned cards that are the problem as I understand it insofar as "what the CSS might have been if all 120 had signed in on the computer"

mike12

Russman wrote: »

I guess it depends on what is meant by NR, i.e. a score returned as an NR on the computer, or a card that simply isn't returned.
An NR that's entered on the computer is fine and afaik it goes into the CSS calculations, its the non-returned cards that are the problem as I understand it insofar as "what the CSS might have been if all 120 had signed in on the computer"

So is seems u are allowed to sign up for the comp on the book but u don't have to register on the computer before play.
Are u allowed to sign in and then submit the score after the round?
If so that needs to be stopped u should have a time delay of a couple of hours between sign in and submit.

Russman

mike12 wrote: »

So is seems u are allowed to sign up for the comp on the book but u don't have to register on the computer before play.
Are u allowed to sign in and then submit the score after the round?
If so that needs to be stopped u should have a time delay of a couple of hours between sign in and submit.

Yeah, the disconnect is that the book is in the pro shop but the computer is out in the hallway, so the shop have no (easy) way of checking that everyone who pays into the comp registers on the computer.
A time delay should absolutely be implemented, but I would have some sympathy with someone who genuinely forgets to log in at the start.

Senna

I wouldn't know the numbers in my club, but I know of a few people who play the weekends but never enter any comps, not sure they even have handicaps.
They pay their membership, so I don't see a problem.

Hoof Hearted2

Russman wrote: »

I guess it depends on what is meant by NR, i.e. a score returned as an NR on the computer, or a card that simply isn't returned.
An NR that's entered on the computer is fine and afaik it goes into the CSS calculations, its the non-returned cards that are the problem as I understand it insofar as "what the CSS might have been if all 120 had signed in on the computer"

Correct it is the definition of an NR that is important here, especially in terms of HC adjustments.
There is nothing wrong with an NR per se, as they are still used in the calculation of CSS, and in your example above the amount of players not used in the CSS calculation is 16.6% and almost certainly would have moved the CSS by at least a shot and that has a knock on effect on all the other players who entered into the computer.
A player who enters the comp and pays his entry fee and who signs into the sign sheet must/should sign into the computer as well, it's a common concurrence in our club and it's up to the comp sec to cross check the sign sheet with the HC computer, a lot of extra work as you can imagine, but essential to do.
We will be bringing a local rule where players must sign into the HC computer prior to playing and we are setting appropriate sanctions for non compliance, there is also an time delay of 150mins between signing into the HC computer and scorecard entry.

mike12

Russman wrote: »

Yeah, the disconnect is that the book is in the pro shop but the computer is out in the hallway, so the shop have no (easy) way of checking that everyone who pays into the comp registers on the computer.
A time delay should absolutely be implemented, but I would have some sympathy with someone who genuinely forgets to log in at the start.

That is so open to abuse, so if u have a good score u can submit the score if u want a point 1 back u can submit the score but if u are getting a small cut u don't have to bother.

Barnaboy

Simple solution in place at loads of clubs - connect a label printer to the computer. Sign in, label prints out, bring label into the shop to put on the card and pay fee.

Russman

mike12 wrote: »

That is so open to abuse, so if u have a good score u can submit the score if u want a point 1 back u can submit the score but if u are getting a small cut u don't have to bother.

Correct. Although I've never seen or heard of anyone not submitting a card with a decent or half decent score (that's not to say it doesn't happen, I've just never heard of it). Anyone who is handicap building makes sure they're not even close to the buffer. The majority of times a card isn't entered in my experience are when guys want to avoid 0.1

Hoof Hearted2

mike12 wrote: »

That is so open to abuse, so if u have a good score u can submit the score if u want a point 1 back u can submit the score but if u are getting a small cut u don't have to bother.

The whole system is open to abuse mike, if a person is so inclined, but and this is the crucial, the system is based on honor and the vast majority of golfers understand and appreciate that and for the most part it works.

Barnaboy wrote: »

Simple solution in place at loads of clubs - connect a label printer to the computer. Sign in, label prints out, bring label into the shop to put on the card and pay fee.

Even better, put the HC computer at the sign in desk where entrants can be observed signing in.

golfwallah

All clubs affiliated to the GUI are obligated to comply with the Council of National Golf Unions (CONGU) rules. Clubs are not permitted to address problems such as NRs by simply making up rules as they go along.

That said, club committees are made up of volunteers who want to deal with issues but are sometimes not fully au fait with the rules their predecessors on committee have signed up to (e.g. with GUI). So mistakes can and do happen.

The best solution is probably to start by bringing this problem to the attention of someone on committee as diplomatically as possible, so they can correct the mistake themselves. If that doesn’t work, the matter should be referred to the GUI.

See CONGU Unified Handicapping System (UHS) here: http://www.congu.com/online_version.htm

The Affiliated Club must ……
6.2 Ensure that the spirit and intent of the UHS is properly applied in the club. Failure by a club to comply with this requirement may lead to a Union withdrawing the club’s right to act as a Handicapping Authority or imposing such conditions as the Union considers appropriate. (See Note below)

Also:

Note: It is the Home Club’s responsibility to ensure that handicaps are maintained in accordance with the rules laid down by the UHS. Any complaint regarding the application of the UHS must be made to the Union, or Area Authority if so delegated, which may carry out such investigation as it shall consider appropriate. If, following such an investigation, it is found that a Home Club is in breach of its responsibilities, the Home Club shall be directed by the Union or Area Authority to review all handicaps and must within three months from that direction report to the Union or Area Authority the manner in which matters have been rectified. Failure to resolve the matter satisfactorily would justify the Union disaffiliating the Home Club, or declaring that handicaps at that club are no longer CONGU® Handicaps.

The following provision is made in the UHS under “Responsibilities of the Handicap Committee”:

Affiliated Clubs have the discretion under Clauses 23 and 24 of the UHS to deal with a player who persistently submits incomplete cards or makes ‘no returns’..