Orlando

Ash885

So I'm presuming many if not all have learned of the events of the shooting that took place in Orlando.

Not got much energy to go in-depth about how I feel, mulling over the shootings all day. Feeling very deflated. In the month of Pride and all, it's really just put such a curve ball in the route to equality.

Effects

Ash885 wrote: »

it's really just put such a curb ball in the route to equality.

Curve ball.

Ash885

Effects wrote: »

Curve ball.

Cheers.

mr.anonymous

Another armed man was stopped heading towards an LA event too.

Hunchback

This is such a staggering shock as more details emerge. The jump from the initial death toll figure of 20 to 50 is astounding. I cannot imagine the carnage that must have been witnessed inside the club or the trauma that the survivors have suffered and will suffer.

I read that the death toll would have certainly been higher but for the intervention of the authorities. People who were trapped inside the club had made contact with the authorities on their mobile phones and told them that if action was not taken immediately they believed more people were going to be killed. The authorities then carried out two controlled explosions on one side of the building to act as a distraction and then basically used some sort of a vehicle to smash right through the other side of the building, creating a large hole in the side of the building through which some people were able to escape.

I just despair for humanity. This is just really impossible to get to grips with

Gremlinertia

I feel very down about it myself, equality does not eradicate homophobia which some people didn't get when marriage equality went through here.. What's worse is i'm not hugely shocked by what has happened, between being desensitised and the current political climate/mayhem in the states i guess anything is possible.. As Hunchback said, i despair.

Fleawuss

Glad to see a separate thread in here on this. Those of us who knew Ireland as a bigoted and hate filled society have never lost our knowledge that we will always be hated by some simply for being who we are. Orlando shows that hatred fed by a lunatic religious extremism. Pride is needed more than ever to answer the scum of Orlando and the likes of Putin. I was at some of the 1916 events and someone explained the poem in the garden of remembrance to me. The last few lines are relevant here: something like "O generations of freedom, remember us the generations of the dream". There are many places where equality is still a dream.

Annasopra

GLEN, TENI and Belong To are organising a vigil in Dublin at 6:30pm tomorrow. It is at Barnardos Square beside City Hall.

Gremlinertia

In Galway there will be a gathering on Wednesday in Eyre square at half six

Links234

I honestly don't have the words...

Fleawuss

Links234 wrote: »

I honestly don't have the words...

All I have is rage.

Links234

Fleawuss wrote: »

All I have is rage.

I don't even have that.

Gremlinertia

Links234 wrote: »

I don't even have that.

Same, feel completely deflated tbh.

Annasopra

Well done Owen Jones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEgd9q8ugs4

Ash885

Just watched it. Such uncomfortable viewing, I'm not sure how he kept his cool for so long.

Fleawuss

Ash885 wrote: »

Just watched it. Such uncomfortable viewing, I'm not sure how he kept his cool for so long.

Time for a new Stonewall.

Rick_

For those with an interest in drag and RuPaul's Drag Race, it turns out that Kenya Michaels was performing in the club at the time (it's her local club) as was Roxxxy Andrew's drag son. They were able to hide themselves inside whilst the shooting was going on and escaped injury.

I honestly can't believe this has happened. Well, actually, I sort-of can as sadly shootings in America seem to be an all too common occurrence these days. My thoughts are with those in Orlando. It was lovely to see that the community immediately rallied round not only to get blood donations organised to help victims but to also put out messages asking people for calm, vigils as marks of respect and support and not to turn against others because of their religious beliefs due to the actions of one asshole.

reason vs religion

I've been trying to rationalise why I've been so much more affected by this event than most other tragedies. I didn't think the gay aspect would cause me to feel ill.

But I disagree somewhat that this was a homophobic attack. I wasn't going to post that opinion, but after seeing the support that Owen Jones has got and the opinions expressed here I'm feeling a bit alienated from my gay brethren, and just hoping for a conversation about it.

It seems to me that it was, first and foremost, a jihad-inspired attack. Of course, the gunman was homophobic, but he was almost certainly fuelled by other hatreds too. What motivated him to do it was surely more than a visceral dislike of gays, which is not uncommon in America: homophobic violence is the outcome, but radical Islam is the cause, and he could, therefore, have tatgeted many other symbols of western liberalism. Because, I think, this incident further underlines the swelling support for LGBT people in America. It's hard to imagine the gunman would have targeted a gay club in the bigoted 80's, when many Americans would have been indifferent.

And that's why I disagree with Owen Jones. He seemed to me to be tying to label it as an attack on - and tragedy for - LGBT's, when I think it's more than just that.

I hope I don't inflame things at this distressing time.

Vojera

reason vs religion wrote: »

And that's why I disagree with Owen Jones. He seemed to me to be tying to label it as an attack on - and tragedy for - LGBT's, when I think it's more than just that.

It may be more than just that, but we appear to be living in a time where the LGBT community does not have the agency to use the words "homophobia" and "transphobia" without having that usage criticised as bullying of homophobic and transphobic people. I honestly can't imagine that if the victims were workers at a womens' aid shelter, for example, that the presenters would be minimising the attacker's hatred of women as a motive.

Owen Jones isn't there saying "Hey, this is a crime against the LGBT community and we own it, no one else", he's just trying to get more than a passing acknowledgement that these victims were targeted specifically because of who they were, that they were more than incidental "Westerners".

reason vs religion

Vojera wrote: »

Owen Jones isn't there saying "Hey, this is a crime against the LGBT community and we own it, no one else", he's just trying to get more than a passing acknowledgement that these victims were targeted specifically because of who they were, that they were more than incidental "Westerners".

I don't think why they were targeted is in question, though. It's accepted why, and that it was homophobic. If there had been another attack by the supposedly White American on LA Pride, it's inconceivable that it wouldn't have been described as homophobic. Jones seemed to want the attack viewed through the lens of homophobia, rather than a hatred of our culture, which takes many forms, including homophobia.

rjpf1980

reason vs religion wrote: »

I've been trying to rationalise why I've been so much more affected by this event than most other tragedies. I didn't think the gay aspect would cause me to feel ill.

But I disagree somewhat that this was a homophobic attack. I wasn't going to post that opinion, but after seeing the support that Owen Jones has got and the opinions expressed here I'm feeling a bit alienated from my gay brethren, and just hoping for a conversation about it.

It seems to me that it was, first and foremost, a jihad-inspired attack. Of course, the gunman was homophobic, but he was almost certainly fuelled by other hatreds too. What motivated him to do it was surely more than a visceral dislike of gays, which is not uncommon in America: homophobic violence is the outcome, but radical Islam is the cause, and he could, therefore, have tatgeted many other symbols of western liberalism. Because, I think, this incident further underlines the swelling support for LGBT people in America. It's hard to imagine the gunman would have targeted a gay club in the bigoted 80's, when many Americans would have been indifferent.

And that's why I disagree with Owen Jones. He seemed to me to be tying to label it as an attack on - and tragedy for - LGBT's, when I think it's more than just that.

I hope I don't inflame things at this distressing time.

Precisely. It is an explicit attack on the West and an open declaration of war on our values of tolerance and individual freedom. ISIS throw gay people off tall buildings in Raqqa. Their literal interpretation of the Quran and Islamic Law inspires their hatred of all things infidel including gays.

Things have been inflamed by Isis and other Muslim extremists. They have to be exterminated without apology or mercy. Enough is enough. Extremist Islam is the enemy and it and its followers have to go.

reason vs religion

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Precisely. It is an explicit attack on the West and an open declaration of war on our values of tolerance and individual freedom. ISIS throw gay people off tall buildings in Raqqa. Their literal interpretation of the Quran and Islamic Law inspires their hatred of all things infidel including gays.

Things have been inflamed by Isis and other Muslim extremists. They have to be exterminated without apology or mercy. Enough is enough. Extremist Islam is the enemy and it and its followers have to go.

This isn't really where I'd have liked the conversation to go. But you can't exterminate an idea that thrives on adversity. (And that's also quite a fascistic solution.) Like with how LGBT acceptance has increased, it needs to be through respectful interaction and, crucially, an acceptance of Islamic culture.

But, seriously, there's an After Hours thread for discussing the Islamist angle and what the response should be.

Links234

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Well done Owen Jones

On Sky News last night, I realised how far some will go to ignore homophobia - Owen Jones

I think he's absolutely right, and it stinks of erasure.

And furthermore, this is a particularly salient point:

Today, the “we only care about LGBT rights if Muslims are involved” brigade are out in force. As a gay man, I am proud to live in a city represented by a Muslim mayor who has faced death threats for supporting and voting for LGBT people to have the same rights as everybody else. The bigots must not be allowed to hijack this atrocity.

rjpf1980

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Things have been inflamed by Isis and other Muslim extremists.

The only thing Daesh did in this case was give a homophobic lunatic the impression that he'd get his 50 virgins for acting on his disgusting hatred, there is nothing Islamic about this act.

People (like Donald Trump) giving that idea air are doing it solely for their own personal agendas ... whether that agenda is a denial that homophobic extremists exist or to inflame anti-Islamic sentiments for their own ends.

Snickers Man

reason vs religion wrote: »

And that's why I disagree with Owen Jones. He seemed to me to be tying to label it as an attack on - and tragedy for - LGBT's, when I think it's more than just that.

I hope I don't inflame things at this distressing time.

Well said. I could add to this but am reluctant to do so because I don't think Owen Jones is or should be the story here. (Who the hell is he anyway? Actually, don't answer that)

Terrible news from Orlando. And fair play to all those going to the vigil(s) tonight with their rainbow flags.

Be not afraid.

Annasopra

Folks this is the lgbt forum.

This discussion is veering off into a generalised discussion on ISIS/Islam etc etc.

Also a general warning that turning this atrocity from homophobia to islamophobia and using lgbt people and our rights to pursue a racist and/or islamophobic agenda will not be welcome here.

Feel free to discuss from an lgbt perspective. Don't go off topic. And don't use lgbt people or lgbt rights to pursue an islamophobic/racist agenda

Fleawuss

reason vs religion wrote: »

I've been trying to rationalise why I've been so much more affected by this event than most other tragedies. I didn't think the gay aspect would cause me to feel ill.

But I disagree somewhat that this was a homophobic attack. I wasn't going to post that opinion, but after seeing the support that Owen Jones has got and the opinions expressed here I'm feeling a bit alienated from my gay brethren, and just hoping for a conversation about it.

It seems to me that it was, first and foremost, a jihad-inspired attack. Of course, the gunman was homophobic, but he was almost certainly fuelled by other hatreds too. What motivated him to do it was surely more than a visceral dislike of gays, which is not uncommon in America: homophobic violence is the outcome, but radical Islam is the cause, and he could, therefore, have tatgeted many other symbols of western liberalism. Because, I think, this incident further underlines the swelling support for LGBT people in America. It's hard to imagine the gunman would have targeted a gay club in the bigoted 80's, when many Americans would have been indifferent.

And that's why I disagree with Owen Jones. He seemed to me to be tying to label it as an attack on - and tragedy for - LGBT's, when I think it's more than just that.

I hope I don't inflame things at this distressing time.

I don't think you are inflaming things. This forum runs on different air to the main ones so I hope you can say what you think lies behind it. Gay people have to be able to speak their truth to each other: for so long we were the only people we could say it to.

I'll abide by the mods warning on the forum but I will repeat what I said elsewhere: trying to spin the truth doesn't work. It only opens the door for the likes of Trump and worse. I've regarded revealed religions as a blight on humanity for years and this massacre just confirms it for me.

It took physical courage at Stonewall to start a change. We shouldn't lose sight of how and what other gay people fought for.

Rick_

And of course the Westboro Baptist Church have chimed in with very helpful statements like:-

"Gays brought it upon themselves"
"50 less paedophiles in the world now"
"The shooting is good news"
"God sent Omar to the club"

Jesus wept. People are complaining about Muslims and Islam and their hatred, yet look at what is coming from the Christians too. Well, I use the term "Christian" loosely when talking about the WBC.

ongarboy

Feeling quite down today. I attended my first gay wedding this weekend surrounded by all my family. It was a pivotal moment for me and I felt a euphoria similar to last year's Yes result as this was the first real tangible evidence of that result for me personally. Surrounded by my elderly parents and siblings attending and celebrating my gay cousin's wedding. Ireland and the world had come so far I thought....

And then to wake up to this tragedy yesterday, the details which got more horrific as the day progressed. I'm not so naive to know there still wasn't real and present dangerous homophobia in the world. Several US states passing anti LGBT legislation recently were worrying developments but for something as evil as this to happen has knocked me for six. Unlike all the other terrible shootings in the USA in recent years (I feel for poor Obama having to repeat the same "shocked" reaction with ever increasing frequency), this one was intentionally targeting a particular demographic purely based on their sexual orientation. I don't care if there was an ISIS element to this as that doesn't diminish or explain anything. Yes, one might say this guy was a nutcase as was every other mass shooter before him but when you see certain toxic religious and extremist right wing groups in America already "celebrating", it just adds to the tragedy and trauma that LGBTs and anyone who supports equality for them is feeling.

Will this event be a wake up call for America in tackling homophobia? Sadly I think not. The fact nothing has changed since the awful shooting of 20+ children in Sandy Hook suggests guns are there to stay. I fear this will just become another mass shooting statistic. :mad:

RIP to all those who died and thoughts and prayers for their loved ones, the injured and all those affected.

L.Jenkins

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Well done Owen Jones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEgd9q8ugs4

Links234 wrote: »

On Sky News last night, I realised how far some will go to ignore homophobia - Owen Jones

I think he's absolutely right, and it stinks of erasure.

And furthermore, this is a particularly salient point:

That was painful viewing. I watched the entire video and both journos did everything to avoid labeling it homophobia. He was death right to walk off.

pad e wrote: »

And of course the Westboro Baptist Church have chimed in with very helpful statements like:-

"Gays brought it upon themselves"
"50 less paedophiles in the world now"
"The shooting is good news"
"God sent Omar to the club"

Jesus wept. People are complaining about Muslims and Islam and their hatred, yet look at what is coming from the Christians too. Well, I use the term "Christian" loosely when talking about the WBC.

WBC and their ilk really know how to rub it in. It would be nice if they could just piss already.

reason vs religion

I've spent so much of my day mulling this over. Driving me frantic. Anyway, my position has come somewhat more inline with the one on this forum. Ultimately, while I don't think interpreting the shooting as a wider attack on society indicates homophobia (in fact, I think it demonstrates quite the opposite), I do accept that, to use an analogy, while the fox attacking the hens threatens the whole farm, the hens are the immediate victims. Julia Hartley Brewer and the Sky presenter were too quick to skate over that point. It was an attack on gay people with wider implications. But it was still first an attack on gays.

Anyway, I hope JtheP will appreciate that this is a particular aspect that absolutely relates to the LGBT experience and is therefore not off topic. And thanks for reasonable responses.

As emotional as I've been today and yesterday, I imagine it'll hit home next time I'm in a club. Take care, everyone.

Fleawuss

reason vs religion wrote: »

I've spent so much of my day mulling this over. Driving me frantic. Anyway, my position has come somewhat more inline with the one on this forum. Ultimately, while I don't think interpreting the shooting as a wider attack on society indicates homophobia (in fact, I think it demonstrates quite the opposite), I do accept that, to use an analogy, while the fox attacking the hens threatens the whole farm, the hens are the immediate victims. Julia Hartley Brewer and the Sky presenter were too quick to skate over that point. It was an attack on gay people with wider implications. But it was still first an attack on gays.

Anyway, I hope JtheP will appreciate that this is a particular aspect that absolutely relates to the LGBT experience and is therefore not off topic. And thanks for reasonable responses.

As emotional as I've been today and yesterday, I imagine it'll hit home next time I'm in a club. Take care, everyone.

Maybe it's my age and the recent anniversary of the YES but I've been thinking again of Declan Flynn. And it's sad. And some of the text messages from the people trapped in the toilets as that lunatic moved in. Sad sad sad. But the rage is there too. How dare they. How ****ing dare they.

Annasopra

reason vs religion wrote: »

I've spent so much of my day mulling this over. Driving me frantic. Anyway, my position has come somewhat more inline with the one on this forum. Ultimately, while I don't think interpreting the shooting as a wider attack on society indicates homophobia (in fact, I think it demonstrates quite the opposite), I do accept that, to use an analogy, while the fox attacking the hens threatens the whole farm, the hens are the immediate victims. Julia Hartley Brewer and the Sky presenter were too quick to skate over that point. It was an attack on gay people with wider implications. But it was still first an attack on gays.

Anyway, I hope JtheP will appreciate that this is a particular aspect that absolutely relates to the LGBT experience and is therefore not off topic. And thanks for reasonable responses.

As emotional as I've been today and yesterday, I imagine it'll hit home next time I'm in a club. Take care, everyone.

I think this is the point. LGBT people were targeted because they are lgbt. It's a hate crime and it is reductionist and dismissive to say yes but.... western society was a target, americans were a target etc

newacc2015

I don't know how anyone can say it was anything but a hate crime. The guy drove over 120 miles to that particular club to kill gay people. In fact Pulse is specifically a Latin gay club. Nearly all the victims have Latin names. If it wasn't a racially or homophobic motivated act, why did he drive for such long distance?

In America it is hard to be gay. It is even harder to be gay and a person of colour. I can't imagine how the gay Latin community must feel in Orlando considering the media ignored the fact that they were LGBT and that they were Latin.

Vojera

newacc2015 wrote: »

In America it is hard to be gay. It is even harder to be gay and a person of colour. I can't imagine how the gay Latin community must feel in Orlando considering the media ignored the fact that they were LGBT and that they were Latin.

When you see the likes of Trump using this as an example of how the US should keep Muslims out of the country, it's sickening given his attitudes. He doesn't give two f*cks about the Latin or LGBT community unless he can spin their misfortune for votes. I can't imagine how it feels to actually be one of those communities in the US right now.

Lyaiera

I was linked to this. It's a pretty good article from an atheist, ex-muslim, pansexual woman.

"Erasing LGBTQ Muslims & Islamic Homophobia"

http://the-orbit.net/heinous/2016/06/13/lgbtq-muslims-islamic-homophobia/

reason vs religion

So, seems the gunman was a self-hating gay: "gunman 'was a regular at LGBT nightclub Pulse' before attack 'and used gay dating apps.'"

How, if at all, does that change your view? Surely the internal conflict between his sexuality and religion are relevant?

Fleawuss

I see on the other thread that there may be emerging evidence that the killer may have been gay.

Awake&Unafraid

It could be either that he was using these apps and attending the club to lure in victims by pretending to be gay, that was my first thought when I heard he had visited the club frequently.

Or he could actually be gay, I guess we won't ever really know for sure.

This whole thing is just a huge mess. It's a disgusting world we live in.

reason vs religion

Apparently he asked out a male childhood friend. I think it's less of a stretch to believe he was gay than that he was planning his attack by regularly surrounding himself with those that he hates for two years.

Well, one thing, it makes Owen Jones inadvertently completely right. This wasn't an attack against Western society's liberalism. It was an out-and-out homophobic attack given stimulus by ISIS and a homophobic culture in Islam and maybe America.

Annasopra

reason vs religion wrote: »

So, seems the gunman was a self-hating gay: "gunman 'was a regular at LGBT nightclub Pulse' before attack 'and used gay dating apps.'"

How, if at all, does that change your view? Surely the internal conflict between his sexuality and religion are relevant?

Actually it disgusts me that people twist it into victim blaming

"oh actually he was secretly one of yours, proper straight men never do these things because they're too busy being straight and manly, and *real* men wouldn't something so cowardly".

I actually think the toxicity of homophobia has many different cultural elements, religion, machoism, politics, sport, family, education

rjpf1980

reason vs religion wrote: »

Apparently he asked out a male childhood friend. I think it's less of a stretch to believe he was gay than that he was planning his attack by regularly surrounding himself with those that he hates for two years.

Well, one thing, it makes Owen Jones inadvertently completely right. This wasn't an attack against Western society's liberalism. It was an out-and-out homophobic attack given stimulus by ISIS and a homophobic culture in Islam and maybe America.

Can you tone down the Islamophobia please and focus solely on guns and homophobia as the cause of the massacre? We must not insult the noble peaceful religion of Islam. Obviously we must blame Christianity. Although shooter was of Afghan descent his father was an outspoken Taliban supporter and the shooter screamed Allah Akbar as he opened fire the motive will remain a mystery.

Mod note poster banned for trolling and ignoring mod instruction

Bannasidhe

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Can you tone down the Islamophobia please and focus solely on guns and homophobia as the cause of the massacre? We must not insult the noble peaceful religion of Islam. Obviously we must blame Christianity. Although shooter was of Afghan descent his father was an outspoken Taliban supporter and the shooter screamed Allah Akbar as he opened fire the motive will remain a mystery.

Mod note poster banned for trolling and ignoring mod instruction

Just on this - I am astounded at this need for 'one/sole' cause I keep reading/hearing.

It seems it has to be Islam or homophobia or western values or availability of guns or religion in general or insensitivity to violence or hypermasculinity or ....

Why is it too hard to accept it can be all of the above?

A 'macho' man who came from a religious background that is generally unaccepting of homosexuality and worked in a highly charged militaristic job may or may not have had difficulties with his own sexual orientation. He lived in a society that is intent on introducing legislation to curb the rights of LGBTQI people while protecting the rights of people to buy high powered weapons. These laws are being sponsored by people from a religious background that sees religion of killer as the enemy. However, fundamentalists of both religions view homosexuality as an abomination.

A toxic soup of hate.

Vojera

Hairy Baby have designed a really nice t-shirt, the profits from which will be donated to the Pulse Victims Support Fund. If you were going to buy something to wear to Pride anyway, it may as well be this.

pl4ichjgy17zwd

Vojera wrote: »

Hairy Baby have designed a really nice t-shirt, the profits from which will be donated to the Pulse Victims Support Fund. If you were going to buy something to wear to Pride anyway, it may as well be this.

Thanks for that. I can't make Pride this year but I bought the t-shirt and donated to the GoFundMe. Would be cool to see a sea of them at Pride.

Vojera

Erik Fancy Vegetation wrote: »

Thanks for that. I can't make Pride this year but I bought the t-shirt and donated to the GoFundMe. Would be cool to see a sea of them at Pride.

Yeah, I've previous plans myself as well but gonna buy one each for myself and the missus once I get paid.

JupiterKid

This despicable atrocity left me stunned and saddened. I can see various motives for the attack - primarily homophobia, hatred of the West, contempt for liberal values and a desire to kill as many innocent people as possible.

Orlando shows us that Pride is still very much needed to challenge homophobic hatred and bigotry.

And I read that the father of one of the Orlando shooting victims refused to claim his body because he was gay. Very sad.