No tax on car

readytosnap

Hi all, My brother took a lend of a car from a friend, there was no tax on the car and he got stopped by the guards and got a €200 fine. Is he responsible for the fine or the owner of the vehicle?, Personally I thought it would be the owner of the car but I also think morally he should be responsible as he was the one driving. Thanks.

Atlantic Dawn

Who's name is on the fine?

sidcon

readytosnap wrote: »

Hi all, My brother took a lend of a car from a friend, there was no tax on the car and he got stopped by the guards and got a €200 fine. Is he responsible for the fine or the owner of the vehicle?, Personally I thought it would be the owner of the car but I also think morally he should be responsible as he was the one driving. Thanks.

It's the drivers problem, before you get into any car you should be making sure it Road legal to drive, it's you that drives it.
That like saying I borrowed a car and crashed it but it wasn't my car so I won't pay for it to be fixed.

ads20101

Pretty certain it's the driver of the car

niley

The person using the vehicle at the time of the offence...

Finance Act 1976, Section 73

Licences to be fixed to and exhibited on vehicles.

73.—(1) Where a vehicle to which this Part applies is used, parked or otherwise kept at any time in a public place, if while the vehicle is being so used, parked or kept there is not fixed to and exhibited on the vehicle in accordance with section 5 (5) of the Act of 1920 a licence which is both issued in respect of the vehicle and is for the time being in force, then the person by whom the vehicle is so used, parked or kept at the time shall be guilty of an offence, and in addition to the person aforesaid, the person (if he is not the person aforesaid) who on the day on which the offence is committed is in relation to the vehicle the relevant person shall also be guilty of an offence.

readytosnap

sidcon wrote: »

It's the drivers problem, before you get into any car you should be making sure it Road legal to drive, it's you that drives it.
That like saying I borrowed a car and crashed it but it wasn't my car so I won't pay for it to be fixed.

Absolute waste of type.

niley wrote: »

The person using the vehicle at the time of the offence...

Finance Act 1976, Section 73

Licences to be fixed to and exhibited on vehicles.

73.—(1) Where a vehicle to which this Part applies is used, parked or otherwise kept at any time in a public place, if while the vehicle is being so used, parked or kept there is not fixed to and exhibited on the vehicle in accordance with section 5 (5) of the Act of 1920 a licence which is both issued in respect of the vehicle and is for the time being in force, then the person by whom the vehicle is so used, parked or kept at the time shall be guilty of an offence, and in addition to the person aforesaid, the person (if he is not the person aforesaid) who on the day on which the offence is committed is in relation to the vehicle the relevant person shall also be guilty of an offence.

Thank you that is what I wanted to know

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Who's name is on the fine?

Sorry I don't know it only happened yesterday and he told me about on the phone

George Dalton

I thought the fine for non display of tax was €60?

GM228

niley wrote: »

The person using the vehicle at the time of the offence...

The owner is also guilty of the same offence even though they are not driving the vehicle!

readytosnap

George Dalton wrote: »

I thought the fine for non display of tax was €60?

So did I, I have obviously only been given half a story.

Voodoomelon

Was the car seized?

CharlieCroker

€60 is the fcpn fine. €200 sounds very like a court fine after the ticket wasn't paid.

twowheelsonly

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Was the car seized?

Gardai don't have the right to seize a car due to no tax unless the amount owing is the same or greater than the value of the vehicle.
They do it under the Finance Act but this has been challenged and won in court (In Donegal I think) It's a pretty straight fight between your rights under the Constitution and the Finance Act. Constitution wins every time !!

This is a copy and paste synopsis of the scenario...

Due Process – the law

This is the guidance given to motorists from the Irish Drivers Association:

Irish constitutional law

1. The 3rd amendment to the constitution. Ireland’s accession to Europe. Known as the 1972 European Communities Act. This is where the Gov of 1992 signed up to the terms of the treaty of Rome.

2. Constitutional law

The constitution is the highest law in the land and no other acts of law introduced by governments shall supersede same. The constitution can only be changed or amended by the people by means of a referendum.

3. The 1992 Finance Act is an introduction of law which supposedly gives Gardai and Customs the powers of seizure which is contrary to article 15.which states “The Oireachtas shall not enact any law which is in any way repugnant to the constitution or any part thereof.”

4. Article 38 The right to a Fair Trial

Article 38 the right to a fair trial in court by a Judge/ jury. If Gardai and customs start to act as judge jury and executioner on the roadside then we no longer need the courts.

5. Article 37

Every person appointed a judge shall swear an oath to uphold the constitution. And should bring it to the attention of the court where summons are been issued under the 1992 finance act giving powers of seizure is contrary to constitutional law.

6. Article 43 property rights

Your property is yours and can not be seized detained or otherwise unless on foot of a court order signed by a Judge not a ( court clerk ) in other words if it’s not signed by a judge it’s not Valid.

………………………………………………………

European law. Treaty of Rome

European principles of proportionality

A court order can not be issued to collect revenue if the property exceeds that which is due to the state. In short they can only lift to the value of, but not above.

Treaty article 10

Special Circumstances

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Gardai don't have the right to seize a car due to no tax unless the amount owing is the same or greater than the value of the vehicle.
They do it under the Finance Act but this has been challenged and won in court (In Donegal I think) It's a pretty straight fight between your rights under the Constitution and the Finance Act. Constitution wins every time !!

This is a copy and paste synopsis of the scenario...

And where does maritime law come into this? If the gardai won't produce their berth cert?

millington

He either didn't get a €200 fine or got fined for something a lot more serious.

Trust me, been there enough :eek:

GM228

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Gardai don't have the right to seize a car due to no tax unless the amount owing is the same or greater than the value of the vehicle.
They do it under the Finance Act but this has been challenged and won in court (In Donegal I think) It's a pretty straight fight between your rights under the Constitution and the Finance Act. Constitution wins every time !!

This is a copy and paste synopsis of the scenario...

The case you refer to was the alleged DPP v John Doherty in Letterkenny District Court as reported in the Donegal Daily:-

http://www.donegaldaily.com/2014/04/11/we-won-court-case-when-gardai-seized-car-you-can-do-the-same/

I say alleged because there isn't any court record of such a case and it wasn't reported anywhere else in the media, I'm pretty certain such a case would have made it's way into other national news such as RTE News etc had it actually happened and there would be several follow up cases as a precedent would have been set for District Court sittings, the government would have also had to debate it and bring in emergency legislation etc if need be and everyone who's car was seized would be arguing the same argument in court.

Also as the District Court does not have the power to overturn legislation or challenge constitutional or EU laws/treaties it's pretty safe to say the Gardaí can still legally seize vehicles as only such a case can be taken to the High Court or the European Court of Justice so even if someone wins an individual case the law still stands until challenge in the HC or ECJ.

Special Circumstances

Is it just me or does the supposed synopsis look like

Rhinoceros is grey
Mandarin is orange.
Floor is down.
Roof is up.
Post hoc, ergo proctor hoc,
alakazam, alakazoo,
No seizure for you!