DPF removal piece on Prime Time last night

Atlantic Dawn

Anyone watch Prime Time last night, they did a piece on DPF removal. The basics of it were in some EU countries premises are raided for providing the DPF removal service but in Ireland it's not currently illegal to provide a service to remove the filter. In the UK the MOT currently checks for DPF removal.

Apparently in Ireland it's illegal do drive a car with DPF removed as the law states..

"every vehicle and trailer shall be maintained in such a condition that there will not be emitted any smoke, visible vapour, grit, sparks, ashes, cinders, or oily substances, the emission of which could be prevented by the taking of any reasonable steps"

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/si/190/made/en/print


At about 14 minutes in...
http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/prime-time-30003251/10582688/

Special Circumstances

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Apparently in Ireland it's illegal do drive a car with DPF removed as the law states..
"every vehicle and trailer shall be maintained in such a condition that there will not be emitted any smoke, visible vapour, grit, sparks, ashes, cinders, or oily substances, the emission of which could be prevented by the taking of any reasonable steps"

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/si/190/made/en/print

Lolz, I spent half the trip to Killarney recently with aircon on recirc as I was stuck behind various diesels putt-putt-putting along.

I don't see how they can argue that removing the DPF is illegal under that clause... seeing as they were quite happy to allow diesels without DPFs be sold here.

shietpilot

They mentioned interfering with the ECU and remapping the system is an offence

Stallingrad

F***in diesels, I spend my life hitting the recirculation button to avoid sucking on their soot.

Special Circumstances

shietpilot wrote: »

They mentioned interfering with the ECU and remapping the system is an offence

Jesus Christ, who was offering these opinions (certainly not facts) - the RSA?
Will have to watch this later.

Special Circumstances

Stallingrad wrote: »

F***in diesels, I spend my life hitting the recirculation button to avoid sucking on their soot.

Apparently some newer cars have a particulate sensor and will automatically do it. Lexus at least.

Edit, it seems they only fit them to petrol models - the derv boys must prefer to stew in the the mixture of emissions :-)

Stallingrad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Apparently some newer cars have a particulate sensor and will automatically do it. Lexus at least.

Edit, it seems they only fit them to petrol models - the derv boys must prefer to stew in the the mixture of emissions :-)

My Passat as an automatic Recirc function which is meant to cut in when it detect pollutants, not sure I trust it to be quicker than me though!

At Volkswagen, the air quality sensor is part of the "Climatronic" automatic air conditioning system. It measures pollutants, in the form of oxidisable or reducible gases, in the air outside your car. Oxidisable gases include carbon monoxide (CO), hydrocarbons (vapours from benzene or petrol) and other incompletely burnt fuel components. Nitrogen oxides (NOx) are reducible gases.
If the quality of the outside air drops – in a traffic jam or when driving through a tunnel, for example – the control system activates the Climatronic’s air recirculation mode, stopping polluted air from coming in and reducing the quality of air inside your car.

Special Circumstances

Stallingrad wrote: »

My Passat as an automatic Recirc function which is meant to cut in when it detect pollutants, not sure I trust it

I hear ya ;);)

Naw, it's a good feature. Bit hypocritical/contradictory, but a good feature.

I try to pre-empt the inevitable cancer cloud if I can. Leaving a 50kph behind a DERV? Hit re-circ and wait for the smokescreen. Ultimately it could be argued that their greatest contribution to helping the planet is by killing off humans early.

bear1

Stallingrad wrote: »

My Passat as an automatic Recirc function which is meant to cut in when it detect pollutants, not sure I trust it to be quicker than me though!

At Volkswagen, the air quality sensor is part of the "Climatronic" automatic air conditioning system. It measures pollutants, in the form of oxidisable or reducible gases, in the air outside your car. Oxidisable gases include carbon monoxide (CO), hydrocarbons (vapours from benzene or petrol) and other incompletely burnt fuel components. Nitrogen oxides (NOx) are reducible gases.
If the quality of the outside air drops – in a traffic jam or when driving through a tunnel, for example – the control system activates the Climatronic’s air recirculation mode, stopping polluted air from coming in and reducing the quality of air inside your car.

Which version Passat is that? My B6 doesn't seem to do that

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

jimgoose

Savage boo laaaaad!! Erm, or something. Interestingly, in the UK a "gutted" DPF won't fail the MOT, even if the inspector can tell well enough by looking at it that something's up, as long as the regular smoke test is passing. I expect it'll be the same here when the NCT get around to checking DPFs. And I don't think that piece of law quoted above makes any of it illegal either. :pac:

Stallingrad

bear1 wrote: »

Which version Passat is that? My B6 doesn't seem to do that

B7

Stallingrad

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ah, but it is petrol, so nothing but fairy dust comes out the exhaust.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

FR85

Here is the thing, taken from another site:

However, these filters need to be cleansed periodically (a process called regeneration), burning off the soot in the filter at high temperatures. “When a DPF regenerates there’s a spike in exhaust gas temperature, fuel economy worsens and NOx emissions increase,” says Molden. The effect is especially pronounced under acceleration, when the NOx levels typically double compared with the same acceleration with the DPF operating normally.

When doing a regen the NOx doubles and then the car uses more fuel......this in turn can hardly be any better for us all?

There is a Merc Sprinter in work with a DPF, when it regens in traffic the whitish/grey smoke is toxic and somewhat embarrassing but it has to be there.
I had it removed off my car as it packed in and tbh the cost of replacing it was horrendous and just not do-able at the time. I would gladly refit it if dealers and manufactures were do offer a deal or if the government are going to kick up offer a grant like they do with everything else.

grogi

FR85 wrote: »

When doing a regen the NOx doubles and then the car uses more fuel......this in turn can hardly be any better for us all?

Driving cars is harmful in general...

Significantly reducing the PM is worth occasional increase in NOx emission.

Special Circumstances

grogi wrote: »

Driving cars is harmful in general...

Significantly reducing the PM is worth occasional increase in NOx emission.

I can see where you are coming from in a purely objective, scientific way...

but if we have learned nothing from green scienticians, it's that CO2 trumps all else. They wouldn't be subsidising diesel / penalising petrol by 10c/L otherwise surely? DPF decreases CO2 emissions, so by that reckoning removing DPF is better for the environment.


Now, to be fair, policy makers in the UK have had the liathroidi to stand up and say "yeah, that diesel is good / CO2 is the worst thing.... complete mistake, sorry".

But until the various green parties and other governments say the same, the implication is that CO2 is much worse than everything else. And by their pseudo science you are helping the environment by removing the DPF.

FR85

Special Circumstances wrote: »

I can see where you are coming from in a purely objective, scientific way...

but if we have learned nothing from green scienticians, it's that CO2 trumps all else. They wouldn't be subsidising diesel / penalising petrol by 10c/L otherwise surely? DPF decreases CO2 emissions, so by that reckoning removing DPF is better for the environment.


Now, to be fair, policy makers in the UK have had the liathroidi to stand up and say "yeah, that diesel is good / CO2 is the worst thing.... complete mistake, sorry".

But until the various green parties and other governments say the same, the implication is that CO2 is much worse than everything else. And by their pseudo science you are helping the environment by removing the DPF.

I was pretty much going there, how many DPF's are there doing regens across the globe increasing NOx x two -v's- how many non-dpf's are just running at normal? That combined with the fuel increase of running a DPF we are simply using more of the world resources........along with other complaints people have such as premature wear and tear on other engine components due to regening DPF's.....ie sumps filling with diesel, turbos etc getting lubed with diesel instead of oil......there is a complete knock on effect all down the chain with arguments for and against.

As said, the main complaint I have is that they are known to give up and the replacement costs are silly and the reason for this is they know this item will die long before the car and it's purely and income generator.

H3llR4iser

Special Circumstances wrote: »

I can see where you are coming from in a purely objective, scientific way...

but if we have learned nothing from green scienticians, it's that CO2 trumps all else. They wouldn't be subsidising diesel / penalising petrol by 10c/L otherwise surely? DPF decreases CO2 emissions, so by that reckoning removing DPF is better for the environment.


Now, to be fair, policy makers in the UK have had the liathroidi to stand up and say "yeah, that diesel is good / CO2 is the worst thing.... complete mistake, sorry".

But until the various green parties and other governments say the same, the implication is that CO2 is much worse than everything else. And by their pseudo science you are helping the environment by removing the DPF.

You're taking the proverbial, right? RIGHT?

Do we also want to talk about the fact that what comes out of diesel car's exhausts in Ireland often smells like something that drops out the backside of a cow? You never detect the same rancid, putrid flesh smell out of trains and lorries - whose fumes do smell like diesel...what do people ACTUALLY put in their tanks to save a few bobs?

Special Circumstances

H3llR4iser wrote: »

You're taking the proverbial, right? RIGHT?

Do we also want to talk about the fact that what comes out of diesel car's exhausts in Ireland often smells like something that drops out the backside of a cow? You never detect the same rancid, putrid flesh smell out of trains and lorries - whose fumes do smell like diesel...what do people ACTUALLY put in their tanks to save a few bobs?

I'm saying... from a purely factual and scientific point of view grogi is correct.

From a green pseudo science point of view, he is wrong - because CO2 is the Great Satan and any increase in CO2 (as used to put sparkle in your beer and soft drinks) is an abomination that cannot be tolerated.

I'm saying, they can't have it both ways "10c levy on pertil cos tis terdible terdible, diesel is so clean and virtuous" versus "diesel is a dirty pox of a thing and ye can't be driving around without a filter on your filter".

Special Circumstances

FR85 wrote: »

I was pretty much going there, how many DPF's are there doing regens across the globe increasing NOx x two -v's- how many non-dpf's are just running at normal? That combined with the fuel increase of running a DPF we are simply using more of the world resources........along with other complaints people have such as premature wear and tear on other engine components due to regening DPF's.....ie sumps filling with diesel, turbos etc getting lubed with diesel instead of oil......there is a complete knock on effect all down the chain with arguments for and against.

As said, the main complaint I have is that they are known to give up and the replacement costs are silly and the reason for this is they know this item will die long before the car and it's purely and income generator.

You are falling into the trap of thinking CO2 is the worst emission from a car. It's not hard to do - the greenies fell for it big time.

I assume you don't drink any sparkling drinks of any sort, to sure not to ingest any of that terrrible CO2 stuff?

FR85

Special Circumstances wrote: »

You are falling into the trap of thinking CO2 is the worst emission from a car. It's not hard to do - the greenies fell for it big time.

I assume you don't drink any sparkling drinks of any sort, to sure not to ingest any of that terrrible CO2 stuff?

I'm not a scientist therefore cars are cars and they poop terrible stuff, the ins and outs of various gasses I don't know about if I'm honest. I'm more so basing my opinions and thoughts on logic, by doing one thing there is a knock on to another thing, by having a DPF you reduce smoke particulate, to reduce smoke particulate you burn more fuel and increase exhaust gasses, in burning more fuel to regen a DPF you use more of the earths diminishing resources and when all that is done you have worn out a part, this part is then disposed of and a new one built generating even more pollution through smelting/disposing and re-manufacturing and then the whole process takes off again not to mention shortening the life of other engine components therefore even more pollution occurs in the disposal of these components. And all this is "green"!!!!

And by they way, would be partial to a fizzy pop and even a sparkling water every once in a while and the plants in my aquarium love a bit of CO2......

jimgoose

FR85 wrote: »

I'm not a scientist therefore cars are cars and they poop terrible stuff, the ins and outs of various gasses I don't know about if I'm honest...

It's very simple: Diesel car with functioning DPF == radioactive shite from the constantly regenerating filter. Diesel car with blanked/removed DPF == carcinogenic DERV oil particles. Goose's old Jaaag running spot-on Lambda and all ship-shape == pure mother's milk from the tailpipes, happy babies and long life! :cool:

ohnonotgmail

Are there any places in dublin that will gut a DPF?

The Bishop Basher

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Are there any places in dublin that will gut a DPF?

There are plenty of places that do it. Not so many that I would trust.

The physical removal isn't rocket science but the fault codes need to be mapped out and better that you get that done by someone familiar with your make / model imo.

gctest50

They'll have drive-by testing soon, be lots of DPF-restoration going on

http://aircarecolorado.com/index.php/rapidscreen/how-i/

Special Circumstances

gctest50 wrote: »

They'll have drive-by testing soon, be lots of DPF-restoration going on

I'd say about 10years before that is implemented here at least. We'll lag at least 4 years behind the majority of Europe. They might even start measuring this stuff as part of nct at some stage lol.

70% of new cars are diesels. That's a lot of p1ssed off voters if they forced them too quickly.

gctest50

They could do it "through insurance", it'd go down well with a lot of the Gay Byrne listenership

this sorta thing :

if you are in an accident and your car is found to have an ECU modified ( beyond main dealer specs. etc )

you will be in the wrong / burned at the stake

They could push it as solving the emissions and the boy-racer stuff all in one go

Del2005

FR85 wrote: »

I'm not a scientist therefore cars are cars and they poop terrible stuff, the ins and outs of various gasses I don't know about if I'm honest. I'm more so basing my opinions and thoughts on logic, by doing one thing there is a knock on to another thing, by having a DPF you reduce smoke particulate, to reduce smoke particulate you burn more fuel and increase exhaust gasses, in burning more fuel to regen a DPF you use more of the earths diminishing resources and when all that is done you have worn out a part, this part is then disposed of and a new one built generating even more pollution through smelting/disposing and re-manufacturing and then the whole process takes off again not to mention shortening the life of other engine components therefore even more pollution occurs in the disposal of these components. And all this is "green"!!!!

And by they way, would be partial to a fizzy pop and even a sparkling water every once in a while and the plants in my aquarium love a bit of CO2......

The problem is that the greens pushed CO2 so much as the big baddie that government's, and the EU, pushed diesel as a way to save the planet. Problem is that diesel produces way more of the stuff that will kill you so now we have an EU vehicle fleet full of cars that are bad for people and slightly better for the environment.
But not too worry as must cities will be banning oil burners soon enough, to get their air safe for people, so it won't really matter if the DPF is in or not as you won't be able to drive an oil burner anywhere soon.

skywanderer

Petrol or LPG is the solution for cleaner emissions not Diesel.

grogi

skywanderer wrote: »

Petrol or LPG is the solution for cleaner emissions not Diesel.

No, electrics are...

shietpilot

skywanderer wrote: »

Petrol or LPG is the solution for cleaner emissions not Diesel.

Yes, with carburettors.

Special Circumstances

A sudden about face on the diesel is really going to show up the pseudo science and lack of common sense behind so called green policies. It will have to be gradual so as not to discredit other green policies by association.


Eventually "diesels for all" will be remembered in the same way as those cfl bulbs we were all told would save the world... just another poor solution put on a pedestal by gullible greenies. Both fine for certain applications but not everywhere all the time.

FR85

Del2005 wrote: »

The problem is that the greens pushed CO2 so much as the big baddie that government's, and the EU, pushed diesel as a way to save the planet. Problem is that diesel produces way more of the stuff that will kill you so now we have an EU vehicle fleet full of cars that are bad for people and slightly better for the environment.
But not too worry as must cities will be banning oil burners soon enough, to get their air safe for people, so it won't really matter if the DPF is in or not as you won't be able to drive an oil burner anywhere soon.

That'll be super, I can't wait to see delivery's to shops in towns made in the back of a Prius!!
Just kidding

grogi

FR85 wrote: »

That'll be super, I can't wait to see delivery's to shops in towns made in the back of a Prius!!
Just kidding

But e-NV200 does not sound that ridiculous anymore, right?

FR85

grogi wrote: »

But e-NV200 does not sound that ridiculous anymore, right?

It does actually as I saw one broken down on the back of a truck recently, Image attached.
Also that wouldn't be very suitable for multidrops which is what 90% of deliverys within cities and towns are.

Now the one thing I admittedly like is the new London busses, as far as I know they are a hybrid however I don't think this will take off for bigger commercials as if you are spending a fortune on a truck or big van small city driving limits it's uses.

Virgin Atlantic with an engine manufacturer(can't remember which one) successfully flew a 747-400 using biofuel to power one of the engines, it worked out well and they have been rumored to be doing more research on it, again by the time it's introduced and safety checked, tested and certed by the FAA the dinosaurs might be back, how come more biofuels aren't looked at?

Del2005

FR85 wrote: »

It does actually as I saw one broken down on the back of a truck recently, Image attached.
Also that wouldn't be very suitable for multidrops which is what 90% of deliverys within cities and towns are.

Now the one thing I admittedly like is the new London busses, as far as I know they are a hybrid however I don't think this will take off for bigger commercials as if you are spending a fortune on a truck or big van small city driving limits it's uses.

Virgin Atlantic with an engine manufacturer(can't remember which one) successfully flew a 747-400 using biofuel to power one of the engines, it worked out well and they have been rumored to be doing more research on it, again by the time it's introduced and safety checked, tested and certed by the FAA the dinosaurs might be back, how come more biofuels aren't looked at?

You saw an electric vehicle on a tow wagon and make the jump to thinking that they aren't suitable for deliveries! Electric are ideal for multi drop as constantly stopping and starting an ICE is hugely polluting. The e NV200 has a 170km range so is ideal for city multi drop use, how many delivery drivers do more than that in a city?

A lot of cities already ban HGVs so all companies have warehouse on the outskirts and transfer to LGVs for city deliveries. So we'll be seeing more e LGVs than ICE LGVs soon.

Bio fuels are as big a scam as diesel. Thousands of hectares of farmland and natural rain forest destroyed to produce "green" fuel while people starve, not to mention the water consumption. Until it's produced from agricultural waste it's not viable.

FR85

Del2005 wrote: »

You saw an electric vehicle on a tow wagon and make the jump to thinking that they aren't suitable for deliveries! Electric are ideal for multi drop as constantly stopping and starting an ICE is hugely polluting. The e NV200 has a 170km range so is ideal for city multi drop use, how many delivery drivers do more than that in a city?

A lot of cities already ban HGVs so all companies have warehouse on the outskirts and transfer to LGVs for city deliveries. So we'll be seeing more e LGVs than ICE LGVs soon.

Bio fuels are as big a scam as diesel. Thousands of hectares of farmland and natural rain forest destroyed to produce "green" fuel while people starve, not to mention the water consumption. Until it's produced from agricultural waste it's not viable.

The NV would be terrible as you could only get a little over a pallet into one, how do you suggest say Dunnes or Tesco would get on stocking with one of them let alone say a brewery doing multi drops to multiple bars?? Then there is the pollution involved in making the cells and then disposing of them which all came to light with the Prius. And you would be suprised at how quick the kms rack up when your out doing door to door drops, I know cause I do them from time to time.

And no, I saw one broken down the other month and then it popped up here and I thought it was a bit humerus is all, lighten up....

grogi

FR85 wrote: »

Then there is the pollution involved in making the cells and then disposing of them which all came to light with the Prius. .

Regardless the loading capacity, range etc - the emission control is not about being ecological. It is about protecting the cities and city dwellers.

FR85

grogi wrote: »

Regardless the loading capacity, range etc - the emission control is not about being ecological. It is about protecting the cities and city dwellers.

Very fair point but at the same time but at the same time as being ecological it has to be economical as economics is what companies think. An Post for instance, heap of new vans at the start of the year, none of them were Nissan NV's, our own state ran postal services went primarily diesel (LDV and VW) to carry some letters!! Volvo, Scania, Mercedes, Daf, Hino and all the rest have not really looked at electric that I can see and commercial trucks, vans and busses would be the main polluter within cities. I've been across the states, Canada and I've been in a lot of cities in Europe and these vehicles are all present and a necessity. DPF or not they are all there moving us from A to B or delivering the food on our plates......they're not going away anytime soon

Special Circumstances

FR85 wrote: »

Very fair point but at the same time but at the same time as being ecological it has to be economical as economics is what companies think. An Post for instance, heap of new vans at the start of the year, none of them were Nissan NV's, our own state ran postal services went primarily diesel (LDV and VW) to carry some letters!! Volvo, Scania, Mercedes, Daf, Hino and all the rest have not really looked at electric that I can see and commercial trucks, vans and busses would be the main polluter within cities. I've been across the states, Canada and I've been in a lot of cities in Europe and these vehicles are all present and a necessity. DPF or not they are all there moving us from A to B or delivering the food on our plates......they're not going away anytime soon

My "evidence" is coming from the EPA / dieselgate stuff - but it looks like bigger diesel engines are actually better in terms of actual pollutants - I'd rather one diesel truck swinging by in the early hours of the morning to 10 1.3 diesel vans swarming around during peak hours.

Sometimes common sense is the best option - otherwise you end up with "green" policies like thousands of people scuttering particulates and nox around cities and living in the pallid sickly glow of CFL bulbs.