Teaching a subject for 20 years......Teaching Council will not recognise!!!!!

ethical

A colleague pointed out to me recently that she has been teaching a subject for 20 years (to Leaving Cert. honours standard) and while it is not one of her degree subjects she has attended all the various In-Services over this time and yet the Teaching Council will not give her recognition for the subject.Can this be possible? On the other side of the coin is the fact that she may be soon asked to teach her other degree subject which she has not touched for 20 years (neither has she attended any In-Service for this other degree subject).She is frightened of the fact that she will now be asked to teach a subject that she has NO experience of teaching yet her subject that she is highly experienced in will be taken away from her!! Is it not about time the Teaching Council were sorted out and actually lived in the real world?

mtoutlemonde

ethical wrote: »

A colleague pointed out to me recently that she has been teaching a subject for 20 years (to Leaving Cert. honours standard) and while it is not one of her degree subjects she has attended all the various In-Services over this time and yet the Teaching Council will not give her recognition for the subject.Can this be possible? On the other side of the coin is the fact that she may be soon asked to teach her other degree subject which she has not touched for 20 years (neither has she attended any In-Service for this other degree subject).She is frightened of the fact that she will now be asked to teach a subject that she has NO experience of teaching yet her subject that she is highly experienced in will be taken away from her!! Is it not about time the Teaching Council were sorted out and actually lived in the real world?

I don't think the Teaching Council will ever live in the real world as the majority are not teachers / have not been teaching for a while and don't understand the job or the hardship we have to go through to get work and the hoops they (the TC) make us jump through in order to get employment/registration. It maddens me ever year when I pay my e65 every year for nothing. Rant over

Now I would well believe what is happening to your colleague. The Teaching Council state that once you receive registration it is up to the principal/BOM to decide what you teach. They are only concerned with registration.

political analyst

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

I don't think the Teaching Council will ever live in the real world as the majority are not teachers / have not been teaching for a while and don't understand the job or the hardship we have to go through to get work and the hoops they (the TC) make us jump through in order to get employment/registration. It maddens me ever year when I pay my e65 every year for nothing. Rant over

Now I would well believe what is happening to your colleague. The Teaching Council state that once you receive registration it is up to the principal/BOM to decide what you teach. They are only concerned with registration.

Wasn't the Teaching Council established at the behest of the teachers' unions to make the profession appear more posh, i.e. an equivalent of the Medical Council and the Law Society?

mtoutlemonde

political analyst wrote: »

Wasn't the Teaching Council established at the behest of the teachers' unions to make the profession appear more posh, i.e. an equivalent of the Medical Council and the Law Society?

No just a money making quango that every teacher has had a problem with at some point.

Water John

To be truly a quango, they will have to bump that fee up to €150 like Ab Bord Altrainis tried with the nurses.

mtoutlemonde

Water John wrote: »

To be truly a quango, they will have to bump that fee up to €150 like Ab Bord Altrainis tried with the nurses.

It was €90 when they started.

man_no_plan

ethical wrote: »

A colleague pointed out to me recently that she has been teaching a subject for 20 years (to Leaving Cert. honours standard) and while it is not one of her degree subjects she has attended all the various In-Services over this time and yet the Teaching Council will not give her recognition for the subject.Can this be possible? On the other side of the coin is the fact that she may be soon asked to teach her other degree subject which she has not touched for 20 years (neither has she attended any In-Service for this other degree subject).She is frightened of the fact that she will now be asked to teach a subject that she has NO experience of teaching yet her subject that she is highly experienced in will be taken away from her!! Is it not about time the Teaching Council were sorted out and actually lived in the real world?

I know this happened to a lot of guidance teachers when they came into the quota and they found it difficult.

After 20 years i assume they are pwt? So payment is automatic regardless of the subject, sometimes the ETBS will only pay the unqualified rate.

Basically you can be asked to teach whatever as the new jc shows.

How did the situation arise? Its a difficult personal situation but context is everything.

You are asking us to make a judgement based on half a story.

ethical

Unfortunately new (mis)management was the reason my colleague had her timetable and now her career turned upside down! She contacted the Teaching Council,and a fat lot of good they were! They sent her a large document telling her that if her degree did not contain the subject TOUGH! Mind you they never told her how to go about getting the subject acknowledged as a subject that she is ,in many peoples opinion , certified to teach,after all she has been doing it for 20 years + as well as attending all In-Services in same.

Inspector Coptoor

Once you're registered you can teach Swahili and the TC can't do anything.

Stupid Quango that get €65 of my hard earned every year & I get NOTHING in return.

I have a degree in biochemistry and am only officially recognized for biology and Junior Science.

Doesn't stop me teaching LC Chemistry.

seavill

ethical wrote: »

Unfortunately new (mis)management was the reason my colleague had her timetable and now her career turned upside down! She contacted the Teaching Council,and a fat lot of good they were! They sent her a large document telling her that if her degree did not contain the subject TOUGH! Mind you they never told her how to go about getting the subject acknowledged as a subject that she is ,in many peoples opinion , certified to teach,after all she has been doing it for 20 years + as well as attending all In-Services in same.

Does she have the qualifications to be registered to teach the subject - the answer is no. Are the TC correct in what they are doing yes they are.

How would she get that subject acknowledged I would guess do a degree or modules in it like everyone else. She sould find it very easy if she has 20 years experience teaching it. L

You would be the first one on here giving out if the TC were registering people that didn't have the correct qualifications.

Does she have the experience and expertise to teach the subject yes she does. Does the TC make any difference to that. No they don't.

Going back to your first post - everyone at some stage has no experience teaching a subject and has to get that first experience some how. She did that subject in her degree so has a background in it so will it be extra work yes it will. Will it be impossible no it won't.

Another thread just to complain about a principal or the TC

man_no_plan

seavill wrote: »

Another thread just to complain about a principal or the TC

In a nutshell.

I landed back to teach a childcare module one year as my fifth year class didn't run due to low numbers. You do what you have to and the school does what it has to. There must be a good reason.

Some people think that principals spend their days plotting and planning. If only there was time.

ligertigon

On the other hand,.. Can you refuse to teach a subject if your not registered with the teaching council for that particular subject?

evolving_doors

ligertigon wrote: »

On the other hand,.. Can you refuse to teach a subject if your not registered with the teaching council for that particular subject?

'Needs of the school' is top trumps. Dunno if a principal can have you getting paid for full hours but not teaching any subject?
When you think about it, the teacher was initially happy to teach a subject she was unqualified in.... But now unhappy to teach a subject she is qualified in!

ethical

This is not a rant against a Principal (their job is difficult enough as it is),but I would expect that the Teaching Council which are supposed to be the Professional Body that look after teachers should examine the situations such as my colleagues and do something regarding teachers that for the 'good of the school' were called upon to teach a subject that they do not have in their degree.Unfortunately the Teaching Council have the same charm as Irish Water,a bad start which will never get any better! Of course the teacher in question could take a career break and spend thousands to go back to college and 'do' the subject and get it recognised and by then will be 44 years old and we will all live happily ever after!

mtoutlemonde

ethical wrote: »

This is not a rant against a Principal (their job is difficult enough as it is),but I would expect that the Teaching Council which are supposed to be the Professional Body that look after teachers should examine the situations such as my colleagues and do something regarding teachers that for the 'good of the school' were called upon to teach a subject that they do not have in their degree.Unfortunately the Teaching Council have the same charm as Irish Water,a bad start which will never get any better! Of course the teacher in question could take a career break and spend thousands to go back to college and 'do' the subject and get it recognised and by then will be 44 years old and we will all live happily ever after!

I think that's taking it to the extreme. It is possible to pick up subjects nowadays in all of the universities. I presume he/she had to have studied the subject during their degree in order to teach it. One has to be careful what they state on their cv. I picked up a subject while working and I have colleagues doing the maths course in UL and they survive it. It is tough but when I was finally finished - I was delighted. As other posters said, your colleague has a degree in the subject they have been asked to teach and although they may be rusty, should be able to teach it. What is his/her opinion?

seavill

ethical wrote: »

This is not a rant against a Principal (their job is difficult enough as it is),but I would expect that the Teaching Council which are supposed to be the Professional Body that look after teachers should examine the situations such as my colleagues and do something regarding teachers that for the 'good of the school' were called upon to teach a subject that they do not have in their degree.Unfortunately the Teaching Council have the same charm as Irish Water,a bad start which will never get any better! Of course the teacher in question could take a career break and spend thousands to go back to college and 'do' the subject and get it recognised and by then will be 44 years old and we will all live happily ever after!

We all know teaching something to LC level is not the same thing as studying it in depth to degree level.

The TC is there to ensure people that have a degree can get registered. Your friend DOES NOT have a degree in the subject so thus can't be registered which is 100% correct.

We all know we could turn our hand to a subject if we needed to and do enough to be able to teach it but that doesn't mean we should be recognised in an equivalent level to someone with a degree in it.

Your argument is deeply flawed and has no basis

evolving_doors

ethical wrote: »

This is not a rant against a Principal (their job is difficult enough as it is),but I would expect that the Teaching Council which are supposed to be the Professional Body that look after teachers should examine the situations such as my colleagues and do something regarding teachers that for the 'good of the school' were called upon to teach a subject that they do not have in their degree.Unfortunately the Teaching Council have the same charm as Irish Water,a bad start which will never get any better!

i can kind of see your point in terms of a legacy issue, similar to teachers in FE/VEC's who were allowed to teach with just the degree (no Hdip!) and to my understanding they were given a derrogation and are being paid and registered as fully qualified teachers (correct me if I'm wrong).

Although... for them ,needs of the school and all that, their subject situation has not changed. Whereas ....in this case it has, she is being asked to teach a subject she is qualified in for some reason. In some ways the principal might be looking out for her interests. Were he not to ask her to get experience in a 'new' subject he would be leaving her to teach a single subject with about 20+ years to go, what would happen if that subject had falling numbers? What would your colleague do then.

ethical wrote: »

Of course the teacher in question could take a career break and spend thousands to go back to college and 'do' the subject and get it recognised and by then will be 44 years old and we will all live happily ever after!

Yes they could... 44 isn't too old either btw!

ligertigon

So just to be clear:
If you are registered to teach say, biology.
And have been teaching maths for the last 10 years.
Can you refuse to continue teaching maths on the basis that you feel your not qualified nor registered?

I mean, if you can't, whats the point of the TC in the first place?

Also, could mammy sue the school because her son failed maths due to an 'unqualified' teacher? If essentially that's what the TC is all about?

OP. put an advert in the local paper in personal section, stating that you apologise to all former students you taught, that you were never 'qualified' to teach that subject and hope it didn't affect their education too much..

Of course run a copy of the letter to the BOM before you print it.

mirrorwall14

I'm fairly rigid in my view here. I was taught by one of these legacy teachers. Who 'liked' to have a few classes of this subject. She apparently found it 'easier' to teach (quote from a fellow staff member). She was brutal. She hadn't a clue of the subject and made no effort whatsoever. Her attitude was just learn it off.

While the teaching council has generally left it to the discretion of the principal in relation to legacy teachers I would argue that they should all be forced to get qualified. I am not by any means saying that the teacher in question here is a bad teacher but the long and the short of it is that they do not have the qualification.

If you think about it, would you be happy with a nurse who qualified to work under an older system never bothering to upskill or improve their abilities?

Qualifications are there for a reason and they are easier to get nowadays with open university and the ability to negotiate individual modules with the universities.

Of all of the other issues I have with the teaching council this is not one I'm concerned about

gaiscioch

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

I think that's taking it to the extreme. It is possible to pick up subjects nowadays in all of the universities.... I picked up a subject while working and I have colleagues doing the maths course in UL and they survive it. It is tough but when I was finally finished - I was delighted.

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

While the teaching council has generally left it to the discretion of the principal in relation to legacy teachers I would argue that they should all be forced to get qualified.

It's unpopular to say it but I 100% agree with this and to be frank I've little sympathy for somebody who has not had the work ethic to get academically qualified in the subject they've been teaching. Similarly, if one of your subjects is CSPE, and you don't bother getting a real teaching subject you have only yourself to blame. The writing has been on the wall for many, many years now: if you aren't academically qualified to teach the subject, your position teaching it is at risk. This is the way it should be. We can't be demanding respect as professionals while at the same time having many, many teachers teaching subjects that they're not qualified to teach. It's unfair to everybody, from the student to the (often underemployed/unemployed) teacher who has actually played by the rules and put the effort into becoming qualified in that subject.

I'm not advocating an immediate end to unqualified teachers (life, and school timetables, is not perfect), but teaching the same subject for 20 years or even 10 years and not bothering to get the necessary qualification is lazy. There should be a condition that an unqualified teacher must get the required qualification within, say, three years of starting to teach the subject (with reasonable accommodation made for subject qualifications which are less available). It's possible to be very fair here, unless the teacher is very lazy.

For the record, I was in precisely the same position as the person alluded to in the op: teaching a subject I wasn't qualified to teach. However, like mtoutlemonde I arranged to do the necessary 60 ECTS (degree credits) at night over two years to become qualified in it. Added to my 20 ECTS from 1st year in that subject I have 80 ECTS in that subject, the same total number of degree credits I have for each of my final year degree subjects. It was not easy at all to juggle a full-time job, university two nights a week, course study and family commitments for those two years. The end of study leave combined with the Croke Park hours directly interfering with attendance at courses where attendance forms part of the grade heightened the stress of returning to college (I'm doing another qualification now). It was also not cheap, particularly after the government reduced the tax refund on tuition fees (the refund is even more paltry now: I received a mere c. €230 tax back for my most recent tuition fee of €3,740 - before the cutbacks it would have been €548). However, it had to be done because they are the rules and the sooner we get our qualifications under our belt the sooner we secure our respective careers.

There is an enormous amount of ineffably irrelevant bullshít which this government and its precursor have imposed upon Irish teachers since 2009 (did I mention the Croke Park hours?) Insisting that teachers of subjects should have the basic academic qualification in said subjects is, however, something we should welcome. To encourage professionalism the state could restore study leave and a proper tax refund scheme for tuition fees.

Inspector Coptoor

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I'm fairly rigid in my view here. I was taught by one of these legacy teachers. Who 'liked' to have a few classes of this subject. She apparently found it 'easier' to teach (quote from a fellow staff member). She was brutal. She hadn't a clue of the subject and made no effort whatsoever. Her attitude was just learn it off.

While the teaching council has generally left it to the discretion of the principal in relation to legacy teachers I would argue that they should all be forced to get qualified. I am not by any means saying that the teacher in question here is a bad teacher but the long and the short of it is that they do not have the qualification.

If you think about it, would you be happy with a nurse who qualified to work under an older system never bothering to upskill or improve their abilities?

Qualifications are there for a reason and they are easier to get nowadays with open university and the ability to negotiate individual modules with the universities.

Of all of the other issues I have with the teaching council this is not one I'm concerned about

I agree with you in theory.

BUT, and here's the BUT, some of the degrees they don't qualify/permit teachers to be qualified in are a joke.
The 30% of your degree in terms of ECTs is very much open to interpretation.
Eg - 3 year Arts degree - 180 credits so minimum number of credits required is is 54.
Contrast that with science hons degree - 240 credits so number of credits required is 72.
This is simply NOT fair.

A guy I know with a degree in Maths/Physics is "qualified" to teach Applied Maths and Physics but NOT Maths.

And in my own case, my degree is Biochemistry - clue is in the name, BUT, they only award me Biology.

I also feel some of you are missing an important point or two.
What about CPD? I went on a two day Chemistry teacher training course last summer - why shouldn't that count towards my "level of qualification?"

If a teacher has been teaching a subject EFFECTIVELY for a number of years, should those years not count for something?
It's not as black and white as you are making out.

Obviously if the subjects are completely disparate it makes perfect sense, BUT, in the situations I have outlined, hopefully you would agree I have a point or two

Crazy Ivan

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I agree with you in theory.

BUT, and here's the BUT, some of the degrees they don't qualify/permit teachers to be qualified in are a joke.
The 30% of your degree in terms of ECTs is very much open to interpretation.
Eg - 3 year Arts degree - 180 credits so minimum number of credits required is is 54.
Contrast that with science hons degree - 240 credits so number of credits required is 72.
This is simply NOT fair.

A guy I know with a degree in Maths/Physics is "qualified" to teach Applied Maths and Physics but NOT Maths.

And in my own case, my degree is Biochemistry - clue is in the name, BUT, they only award me Biology.

I also feel some of you are missing an important point or two.
What about CPD? I went on a two day Chemistry teacher training course last summer - why shouldn't that count towards my "level of qualification?"

If a teacher has been teaching a subject EFFECTIVELY for a number of years, should those years not count for something?
It's not as black and white as you are making out.

Obviously if the subjects are completely disparate it makes perfect sense, BUT, in the situations I have outlined, hopefully you would agree I have a point or two

I fully agree with above... I have a 1.1 Physics degree and a Ph.D. in Astrophysics but I'm not qualified to teach Maths even though I completed the Maths methodology as part of my teaching qualification.

Not being big headed (4 years of a Ph.D. hardens you a bit!) but I could tear strips off most of the others who were in the Maths methodology class, some of whom were often very lost with regard to many mathematical concepts.

To the TC, it's as if my Ph.D. never happened. This would be the case if anyone had a Ph.D. in Maths after doing a degree in Physics as well --> pooooof... never happened!

mirrorwall14

And you've gone sideways into one of the arguments I do support against the teaching council. Lack of joined up thinking and clarity in terms of what exactly will qualify you. They are a pain in the neck with that

I do still absolutely advocate a minimum amount of ECTs required to register as a teacher of any subject. BUT one of my issues with the teaching council is that I believe there should be a specific list of modules acceptable for each subject

Wouldn't (in general) accept training courses personally because some of them have been absolutely dire in both content and delivery

seavill

Crazy Ivan wrote: »

I fully agree with above... I have a 1.1 Physics degree and a Ph.D. in Astrophysics but I'm not qualified to teach Maths even though I completed the Maths methodology as part of my teaching qualification.

Not being big headed (4 years of a Ph.D. hardens you a bit!) but I could tear strips off most of the others who were in the Maths methodology class, some of whom were often very lost with regard to many mathematical concepts.

To the TC, it's as if my Ph.D. never happened. This would be the case if anyone had a Ph.D. in Maths after doing a degree in Physics as well --> pooooof... never happened!

The difference with the op though is that person has done no qualification in the subject. Completely different scenario.

And agreed with last poster the quality of in service as well frequency leaves a lot to be desired would need to be a much better structure that is quantifiable before you could start counting them for anything

MrJones1973

Ah the teaching council-such a wonderful job on raising the profile of the profession. Three pay scales-one not too far from what you would get in Tesco. Oh but they wash their hands and instead insist you spend an extra year in college? For what? Of course they are part of the "Its the teachers fault entirely" brigade of student/school assessment which ignores social inequality and the fact that despite throwing the world and its mother in terms of resources at certain kids- these kids will continue being wasters BUT ITS YOUR FAULT! (Entirely)

endacl

Feck's sake.

What would happen if every teacher, en masse, simply declined to pay the annual fee and refused to recognise this shower of jokers?

ligertigon

endacl wrote: »

Feck's sake.

What would happen if every teacher, en masse, simply declined to pay the annual fee and refused to recognise this shower of jokers?

Teachers don't have balls. unlike Luas drivers!

rainbowtrout

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I agree with you in theory.

BUT, and here's the BUT, some of the degrees they don't qualify/permit teachers to be qualified in are a joke.
The 30% of your degree in terms of ECTs is very much open to interpretation.
Eg - 3 year Arts degree - 180 credits so minimum number of credits required is is 54.
Contrast that with science hons degree - 240 credits so number of credits required is 72.
This is simply NOT fair.

It's also not true. To register, a teacher must have completed 54 credits (30% of their degree) in the relevant subject, where a degree is taken to be a minimum of 180 credits. The subject must be taken to final year in a three year degree such as arts, or to at least the third year of a four year degree such as science.

I successfully registered last summer completing physics modules part time to bring up my credits in physics to 58. I did not do fourth year physics.

Incidentally this is changing to a requirement of 60 credits (33%) on January 1, 2017.

MrJones1973

ligertigon wrote: »

Teachers don't have balls. unlike Luas drivers!

Oh no the petite Bourgeois Irish times/Latte drinking Teachers dont have the balls for a real strike. Oh No-what would Mary say at Bridge? We couldnt have that. Only the working class /beer swilling/tattoo speckled lot strike. Perish the thought. Where is my lifestyle supplement? The type who say "I seen it" We are above all that.:P

But lets give Kieran Christie a chance (ASTI) and there has been a few new Standing committee additions, who are the most radical we can hope for. Mark Walshe to name but one. If these people can not awaken teachers to the fact that they are now becoming lower middle class and cant afford a roof over their heads ,then who can?