Certification for electrical works

macphisto

Hi,

This might be a little long winded but i'm looking for context on the advice i have received from 2 electricians. Both have said the regulations have changed alot in the last couple of years and that is why i am posting.

We are going to do some building work on the older part of the house and will have a new office set up and we are thinking of moving the meter from its internal position here to an external wall. The old ceramic fuse board and electrical isolation for the whole house is located in this part of the house. The switches and lights use the old rubber sheathed wiring.

The newer part of the house has its own set of trip switches that connect back to where the meter and old fuse board are in the old part of the building (these trips are old and i have never seen any like them anywhere else). There are 2 bathrooms that have sockets, lights and switches in them.

There are no RCD's on any of the sockets in the house.

One electrician says that for him to do any work on the house, the rubber wiring will need to go, bathrooms need to be sorted out, a new consumer unit with new trips and RCD's will have to be put on all socket circuits. If we do want to move the meter, he also said that mains powered smoke detectors will need to be installed as everything in the house will need to be certified. (He says the battery operated detectors we already have will not suffice)

The other has said that only the work he does will be certified meaning the rubber wiring and old trips could stay and the 2 bathrooms could be left as is if we so wanted and have the work undertaken at a later date. (nothing about smoke alarms mentioned)

I understand the risks of the rubber wiring, the absense of RCD's and the bathrooms and I know they need to be sorted but both electricians have said (understandably) that they will not know the full extent of the works required until they actually start lifting floorboards and go routing around in the loft. For me its about trying to have enough funds to allow for a full rewire if it is required that is an ask, e.g. the lighting circuits do not have earths going to them so i am wondering where will it end. How would that work with certification of the works?

Does the job have to done all at once or can it be done in phases? e.g.
Phase 1 - Move the meter, remove rubber wiring and do a full new install to the office
Phase 2 - Bathrooms, RCD's and new trip switches for the newer part of the house.

Also are there any implications with house insurance and any possible future claims if the phased approach was taken?

Right now there are no issues with the electrics - I know safety must come first and that it all needs to be done and its just a matter of how and when.

Thanks for reading and for any opinions you can offer.

Macphisto

Randyleprechaun

I'd see no problem in doing it in phases. Just make sure each phase of the work is tested and certified separately.

Completion cert for the phase that requires the meter moving and cert no.3 for all other phases. Make sure you get your copies of all certs and the test record sheets to accompany them

Also, as for the smoke/fire detection, while it would be a good idea to replace all with new 230V ones, there is no obligation on any electrical contractor to do it or force you to.

Fire detection does not come under electrical rules although as they are usually 230V in a domestic situation, the electrical contractor ends up doing them.

macphisto

Thanks for your reply Randyleprechaun. That's really useful info and good to know that phasing is possible and to get copies of certs and test results. I'll probably get mains powered smoke detectors anyway for reliability - if for nothing else.

Risteard81

Randyleprechaun wrote: »

Make sure you get your copies of all certs and the test record sheets to accompany them

Only Cert No. 3 currently has a requirement to issue a TRS to the person ordering the work (and another copy to RECI). Cert No. 1 or 2 does not. Nor does a PIR.

2011

macphisto wrote: »

One electrician says that for him to do any work on the house, the rubber wiring will need to go

Correct, most likley this is the most dangerous part of the installation. I would recommend that all of this wiring is immediately disconnected. This type of insulation is so old it I would expect it to be in appalling condition at this stage. I remember replacing cables with this insulation over 20 years ago and the rubber literally fell of the cables.

As you are aware of this your insurance company would most likely have grounds to make life difficult in the event of a claim. Being aware of risk that is above and beyond what would normally be expected and not making the insurance company aware of this specific risk or not dealing with it would be in breach of the small print in your insurance policy.

Disconnecting these cables would be simple, inexpensive and quick.

bathrooms need to be sorted out

Although noncompliant with the regulations, sockets in bathrooms would not concern me as much as the cables with the rubber insulation. Still it would be very easy to disconnect these.

a new consumer unit with new trips and RCD's will have to be put on all socket circuits.

Unlike the work above this is a bit more involved and expensive, although highly recommended. It is hard to know what standard the board is without seeing it, however judging by the description of the installation I would imagine that this board is in dire need of replacement.

If we do want to move the meter, he also said that mains powered smoke detectors will need to be installed as everything in the house will need to be certified. (He says the battery operated detectors we already have will not suffice)

This should be done anyway.

The other has said that only the work he does will be certified meaning the rubber wiring and old trips could stay and the 2 bathrooms could be left as is if we so wanted and have the work undertaken at a later date. (nothing about smoke alarms mentioned)

Very poor advice. Unfortunately what we keep seeing is that the quality of electrical contractors varies massively.


If you are short on money I would leave the meter where it is. Unless there is something you have not made us aware of the location of the meter doesn't sound dangerous, unlike much of the other issues you described.

Risteard81

I would have to agree with 2011 that VIR (Vulcanised India Rubber) cable - even if the insulation resistance appears to be OK - is likely to fall apart when disturbed and is certainly not satisfactory to remain in service.

macphisto

Thanks Risteard81 and 2011,

That's been very helpful. I'm likely to go with electrician no. 1 and ask for the work to be phased so that the rubber wiring is priority and to have cable ran and in situ for a future move and connection to the new meter location - possibly for next year.

The board in the new part of the house is in poor condition, its a metal box with no cover over the trips but at least its positioned up at ceiling height almost 3m from the ground and has a good earth connection.

Incidentally advice I was glad to hear from both electricians was to renew the earth for the house as its not known where it is or the condition it is in. They said they can test but its as good to just get it done.

One last question - for certification would wiring to light fittings and switches that do not have an earth connection need to be replaced or is there any tolerance allowed for? From a quick look at some of the switch wiring, it is single core PVC cable that is used.

Neither electrician has specifically said that light circuits would need to be rewired but it would be good to know so I can try budget for it and not be hit with a surprise half way through the works.

Thanks again,

Macphisto

2011

macphisto wrote: »

I'm likely to go with electrician no. 1 and ask for the work to be phased so that the rubber wiring is priority and to have cable ran and in situ for a future move and connection to the new meter location - possibly for next year.

Makes sense.

The board in the new part of the house is in poor condition, its a metal box with no cover over the trips but at least its positioned up at ceiling height almost 3m from the ground and has a good earth connections

If there are exposed live parts this is exceptionally dangerous.
What do you mean by having "good earth connections"?
Obviously 3m is too high (and against regulations).

Incidentally advice I was glad to hear from both electricians was to renew the earth for the house as its not known where it is or the condition it is in. They said they can test but its as good to just get it done.

The more I read about your house the more it becomes apparent that a complete rewire is necessary. In situations like this it can be cheaper to start again than to fix up and try to save any of the old wiring.

One last question - for certification would wiring to light fittings and switches that do not have an earth connection need to be replaced or is there any tolerance allowed for? From a quick look at some of the switch wiring, it is single core PVC cable that is used.

When funds are limited I generally break things into two categories:


1) Safety critical. In other words not doing this work poses an unacceptable risk of injury, death or damage to property. There is only one logical choice, deal with this immediately. This would include disconnecting all dangerous circuits immediately.


2) Not safety critical, but not 100% compliant with the regulations. If the money isn't there some of this may have to wait. Workarounds may be required to make parts of the installation safe until the funds are available to comply fully.


Examples of this:


- There is not an earth cable at every switch and light fitting. Immediate cost effective solution to make it safe: Change light fittings and switches if necessary for plastic / double insulated units. When funds are available install necessary earth cables.


- PVC cable uses the old red & black colours (they are now brown and blue). Electrician can apply insulation tape / heat shrink to "correct" the colours.


-Relocation of the meter, leave this until the money is available. This sounds like a "nice to have".

Neither electrician has specifically said that light circuits would need to be rewired but it would be good to know so I can try budget for it and not be hit with a surprise half way through the works.

My advice: Get quotations for everything before work commences. If the electrician says he doesn't know the cost of something until he "sees how bad it is" insist on a "worst case" quote. Also it may be an idea to agree day rates. The last thing you need are more surprises.

macphisto

Good advice re: the workarounds. The colouring is red and black for the lights and switches and all but one light and switch fitting is plastic.

The second board in the new part is in a split-level hallway and is actually 2.4m up from the ground (I just measured it there now. There is part of the ceiling that is 3m up). I assume 2.4m is ok height wise for positioning for a new consumer unit as both electricians said a new unit could go in to the existing location.

Live wires are wired to the back of each trip switch and are not directly exposed to the front or sides. With the earth connection all I meant is that visually it has a good physical connection. I know that it has to be tested and obviously what "looks" ok is no substitute for thorough testing.

I will ask the electrician to break the job down as you have mentioned and let him prioritise from there. He was adamant that he would not start any work unless the job is done right so i would trust his approach.

2011

macphisto wrote: »

I assume 2.4m is ok height wise for positioning for a new consumer unit

My personal view is that this is a good height as it is not too high to work on yet it is away from "little fingers". However I am pretty sure that this is above the height to comply with the regulations. I need to check them to be sure.

Live wires are wired to the back of each trip switch and are not directly exposed to the front or sides.

Can you see the terminals of the MCBs? If you can see this there are live exposed terminals which is considered unsafe.
This would not be possible when a proper cover is fitted.

macphisto

No, thankfully there is no exposed cable, screws or terminals on show. Each breaker has a rigid cover over them. Funnily enough, the first electrician did mention the "little fingers" so i know that this is as urgent as the rubber wiring. I'm looking forward to just getting it all sorted.

2011

A wall-mounted distribution board shall be mounted at a height not greater than 2.25m measured from the floor to the top surface of the board.

See link:

http://www.etci.ie/docs/ET101_Amendment_1.pdf

macphisto

Thanks 2011,

So if all the existing wiring coming in to the new board does not have to be changed then I assume that note 2 will apply? Otherwise I will need to get a full rewire done.

I'll be preparing for a full rewire now anyway I think

macphisto

A follow up to an old post that might be of some use to others.....

Long time coming but:

The house is fully rewired to a new distribution board, complete with all latest standard RCD's and trip breakers.

Rubber wiring..... Gone
Old distribution board....Gone
New wiring.... in!
New distribution board....in
Smoke alarms...yes
Co2 alarms.. Yes
Standards compliant.. Yes!
Peace of mind....yes!

Thanks to all who have replied for your advice and guidance. It formed a solid base to my decision making...and made the decision for a full rewire an easy one....

Regards,

Macphisto

2011

Thanks for the feedback, great to hear that it all worked out for you.