Copper cylinder replace - is there much to it ?

harry999

Hi

My copper cylinder in hot press is leaking - I bought a new one. The plumber says it will cost 80 euro or more to put in the cylinder.

Is there much to this ? Could I drain the tank and do this myself ? Or is this a big job to drain the tank as all the radiators have to be drained also ? Is 80 euro okay for this job ? Thanks

newacc2015

harry999 wrote: »

Hi

My copper cylinder in hot press is leaking - I bought a new one. The plumber says it will cost 80 euro or more to put in the cylinder.

Is there much to this ? Could I drain the tank and do this myself ? Or is this a big job to drain the tank as all the radiators have to be drained also ? Is 80 euro okay for this job ? Thanks

Get a plumber. It is a skill to install anything plumbing related and now have it leaking. I know handyman who do plumbing all the time. They are fantastic at laying floors and painting. But they can install a pipe without it leaking.

For the sake of knowing you wont need to replace a ceiling down below, pay for a plumber.

Robbie.G

harry999 wrote: »

Hi

My copper cylinder in hot press is leaking - I bought a new one. The plumber says it will cost 80 euro or more to put in the cylinder.

Is there much to this ? Could I drain the tank and do this myself ? Or is this a big job to drain the tank as all the radiators have to be drained also ? Is 80 euro okay for this job ? Thanks

€80 for labour that's for nothing
Let him do it for that

Sleeper12

harry999 wrote:

My copper cylinder in hot press is leaking - I bought a new one. The plumber says it will cost 80 euro or more to put in the cylinder.

harry999 wrote:

Is there much to this ? Could I drain the tank and do this myself ? Or is this a big job to drain the tank as all the radiators have to be drained also ? Is 80 euro okay for this job ? Thanks

Cylinder and heating system needs to be drained. I'd be very weary of any plumber offering to do this for 80 Euro. They most likely won't be up to scratch in my opinion. 80 Euro is ridiculously low for a qualified plumber to do this job.

antoinolachtnai

You shouldn't really need to drain the whole heating system, but it is a lot of work to put in a cylinder (or any type of tank). There are a lot of connections in awkward places.

I think 80 euros would be a great price for putting in the cylinder.

It is worth it just in terms of 'insurance'. If you screw up putting in the new tank, you are going to end up damaging floors and ceilings and it will cost you a lot to fix them.

I would talk to the plumber about how you can keep costs down.

anthonyos

80 is to cheap get more prices pay a decent and get the job done correctly

Sleeper12

antoinolachtnai wrote:

It is worth it just in terms of 'insurance'. If you screw up putting in the new tank, you are going to end up damaging floors and ceilings and it will cost you a lot to fix them.

I can almost guarantee this plumber is not insured. At 80 Euro it's not a qualified plumber with insurance and giving a vat receipt. You just couldn't do a job like this for 80 Euro. People often give out to me on boards for saying that someone is being charged too much. In this case the the price is so low I strongly suggest to op to look more into this plumber and his credentials.

K.Flyer

Unless its "Mates Rates" there is something wrong for only 80 euro. Even C.I.H. is too cheap for risking your P.L. insurance on it.

filbert the fox

K.Flyer wrote: »

Unless its "Mates Rates" there is something wrong for only 80 euro. Even C.I.H. is too cheap for risking your P.L. insurance on it.

OP has new cylinder bought already.

Draining a tank, disconnecting and removing old and replace with new - reconnect element, joint up, refill - sounds reasonable - that €80 is about right.

It's plumbing - maybe repeat business will come after...:cool:

Sleeper12

filbert the fox wrote:

Draining a tank, disconnecting and removing old and replace with new - reconnect element, joint up, refill - sounds reasonable - that €80 is about right.

filbert the fox wrote:

OP has new cylinder bought already.

filbert the fox wrote:

It's plumbing - maybe repeat business will come after...

You are a mile off there. You might get a guy on the dole to do that for 80 euro cash but that is illegal. You are talking 70 euro before vat. A plumber will charge that for labour for the element alone.
To get a qualified plumber with insurance & charging vat you are looking at 150 to 200 depending on the plumber.
If you find this hard to believe take out the golden pages & ring any three you want. You won't get one for under 150 inc vat.

Dtp1979

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You are a mile off there. You might get a guy on the dole to do that for 80 euro cash but that is illegal. You are talking 70 euro before vat. A plumber will charge that for labour for the element alone.
To get a qualified plumber with insurance & charging vat you are looking at 150 to 200 depending on the plumber.
If you find this hard to believe take out the golden pages & ring any three you want. You won't get one for under 150 inc vat.

In one ear......

Sleeper12

Dtp1979 wrote:

In one ear......

I hear you.

I'm not trying to talk up our prices. I quote upfront with no hidden extras. If they want me they will pay. If they don't it's no skin off my nose.

What bothers me here is having people say that 80 is about right they are endorsing this "plumber" in a way. The advice op should be hearing is that he is so cheap it can't be right.
I put on a big extention on my house in 2008. I got quotes from seven builders. Two were mad money. Four were within 10,000 of each other but one was half the price of these four. I wouldn't touch this builder. He was too cheap. I knew he couldn't finish the job he was so cheap. I went with the cheapest of the four.
Sometimes the price gives you a clue about the quality of the tradesmen.

Calahonda52

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You are a mile off there. You might get a guy on the dole to do that for 80 euro cash but that is illegal. .

I am not arguing with any of the sentiments here expressed by you or others re you don't get what you don't pay for however:
Paying cash for work never was and never is illegal: its how the recipient of the cash deals with it in their tax/dole declaration affairs is what may be illegal.

Sleeper12

Calahonda52 wrote:

I am not arguing with any of the sentiments here expressed by you or others re you don't get what you don't pay for however: Paying cash for work never was and never is illegal: its how the recipient of the cash deals with it in their tax/dole declaration affairs is what may be illegal.

A cash job by a guy on the dole is illegal. It's not very helpful making such statements.

Dardania

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Calahonda52 wrote:

I am not arguing with any of the sentiments here expressed by you or others re you don't get what you don't pay for however: Paying cash for work never was and never is illegal: its how the recipient of the cash deals with it in their tax/dole declaration affairs is what may be illegal.

A cash job by a guy on the dole is illegal. It's not very helpful making such statements.

The illegality is on the part of the guy charging, not the guy paying

Sleeper12

Simply not true. It is illegal for the homeowner to knowingly employ a guy on the dole for a cash job.

A cash job is not necessarily cash it can be cheque made out to cash.

I think you are mixing up someone wanting to pay in cash but still getting a vat receipt. This is not a cash job. This is not illegal.

A cash job is when you get it cheaper because you don't get a receipt. I suggest you ring the revenue commissioners. They will tell you that the homeowner is breaking the law as much as the tradesman by getting a cash job done

Edit : conspiracy to defraud the revenue commissioners. Both the homeowner & tradesmen can be changed with this.

Dardania

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Simply not true. It is illegal for the homeowner to knowingly employ a guy on the dole for a cash job.

A cash job is not necessarily cash it can be cheque made out to cash.

I think you are mixing up someone wanting to pay in cash but still getting a vat receipt. This is not a cash job. This is not illegal.

A cash job is when you get it cheaper because you don't get a receipt. I suggest you ring the revenue commissioners. They will tell you that the homeowner is breaking the law as much as the tradesman by getting a cash job done

Edit : conspiracy to defraud the revenue commissioners. Both the homeowner & tradesmen can be changed with this.

could you send a link to this?

Sleeper12

Dardania wrote:

could you send a link to this?

Ring the revenue commissioners. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse in a court of law. Both sides are guilty.
It's like two cars staging a fake accident and only one putting in a claim. Both are guilty of conspiracy to defraud.

This isn't rocket science.

ted1

That sounds like a very low price. Say 5 euro on petrol to get to you and 25 minutes to you and another 25 home plus however long the job takes.

Dardania

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Dardania wrote:

could you send a link to this?

Ring the revenue commissioners. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse in a court of law. Both sides are guilty.
It's like two cars staging a fake accident and only one putting in a claim. Both are guilty of conspiracy to defraud.

This isn't rocket science.

you're not convincing me how a private individual conducting a piece of business with someone for a price is an automatic admission of collusion to defraud the state

I do agree with you (and thanked your posts) that 80 is quite low for the work involved. And I do agree with your suspicion that chances are the cheap tradesperson is probably not declaring the work to Revenue commissioners.
What I don't agree with you about is the automatic admission of guilt by the person buying the services.

I did ask you for a link to back up your claims - you failed to do so, so it's a slow day for me, I looked it up myself -the supplier is the one liable to declare the VAT to Revenue:

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/guide/supply-of-services.html#section3

Sleeper12

Dardania wrote:

I do agree with you (and thanked your posts) that 80 is quite low for the work involved. And I do agree with your suspicion that chances are the cheap tradesperson is probably not declaring the work to Revenue commissioners. What I don't agree with you about is the automatic admission of guilt by the person buying the services.

Dardania wrote:

you're not convincing me how a private individual conducting a piece of business with someone for a price is an automatic admission of collusion to defraud the state

Dardania wrote:

I did ask you for a link to back up your claims - you failed to do so, so it's a slow day for me, I looked it up myself -the supplier is the one liable to declare the VAT to Revenue:

To be honest I don't have to convince you.

My original statement was that it is illegal for the homeowner to KNOWINGLY employ a guy on the dole for a cash job. I. E. Not charging tax. They are as guilty as each other.

Now you can say but how can they prove he knew but that doesn't change the fact that it is illegal.

I'm genuinely gobsmacked that I have to explain this. I genuinely thought everyone knew that for you to enable someone to evade tax (& defraud the social welfare) is illegal. Accountants can be debarred (not sure if that is correct term) & go to jail for this. By law they are supposed to actually report tax evasion.

Dardania

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Dardania wrote:

I do agree with you (and thanked your posts) that 80 is quite low for the work involved. And I do agree with your suspicion that chances are the cheap tradesperson is probably not declaring the work to Revenue commissioners. What I don't agree with you about is the automatic admission of guilt by the person buying the services.

Dardania wrote:

you're not convincing me how a private individual conducting a piece of business with someone for a price is an automatic admission of collusion to defraud the state

Dardania wrote:

I did ask you for a link to back up your claims - you failed to do so, so it's a slow day for me, I looked it up myself -the supplier is the one liable to declare the VAT to Revenue:

To be honest I don't have to convince you.

My original statement was that it is illegal for the homeowner to KNOWINGLY employ a guy on the dole for a cash job. I. E. Not charging tax. They are as guilty as each other.

Now you can say but how can they prove he knew but that doesn't change the fact that it is illegal.

I'm generally gobsmacked that I have to explain this. I generally thought everyone knew that for you to enable someone to evade tax (& defraud the social welfare) is illegal. Accountants can be debarred (not sure if that is correct term) & go to jail for this. By law they are supposed to actually report tax evasion.

I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this (as it would require one of us to admit being wrong/back down/cite references), even though I think we do agree on things at a basic level.

I think OP has enough info to know:
- they shouldn't try to do the cylinder changeout by them-self, as an amateur can get out of depth quickly doing it
- a pro that has insurances, is paying tax, and a reasonable margin is probably going to cost more than 80

Sleeper12

I'm not linking anyone so there's no need to reply.
When you ask a tradesman for a "cash price" you are asking him to do the job "off the books" but you are also asking him to break the law by stealing taxpayers money by not paying tax. I'd sort of, maybe understand that you might think this is ok & you (the homeowner) aren't breaking any laws. I can see you might convince yourself of that but the other part of the "cash Price" is he splits the stolen spoils with you. Hence the cheaper price. When you receive, in fact ask for half of the stolen money you are as guilty as him & breaking the same laws.

You shouldn't need any links to tell you this is wrong & illegal. I was thought right & wrong as a child. I'm not saying I've always done the right thing but I've always known the difference between right & wrong. You don't need links for this. Following the same logic as some of the posts above: but sure I didn't break into someones house & steal it, I bought it off Flash Harry down the pub. WRONG

I don't care if you get cash jobs & think its ok but it bugs the siht out of me that you'd post this here. People might actually believe it as Gospel. It is illegal to ask for a "Cash Price" because you are asking someone to commit a crime & it's illegal to have a "cash job" done in your home. If you want to support the black economy thats fine by me but please don't try tell people here its not illegal.

deandean

OP I am a diy-er and I have done almost all the plumbing in my house. From my vast experience I learned the hard way that there are two jobs I call in plumber for:
1 is soldering copper pipes, and
2 is replacing a copper cylinder.

And it is your choice as to what plumber to engage. You have no need whatsoever to insist on his tax clearance cert or the likes. That's his problem/responsibility. Ignore the ethical crud being offered here and get yourself a good plumber via personal recommendation.
Best of luck!

deandean

deandean wrote: »

OP I am a diy-er and I have done almost all the plumbing in my house. From my vast experience I learned the hard way that there are two jobs I call in plumber for:
1 is soldering copper pipes, and
2 is replacing a copper cylinder.

And it is your choice as to what plumber to engage. You have no need whatsoever to insist on his tax clearance cert or the likes. That's his problem/responsibility. Ignore the ethical crud being offered here and get yourself a good plumber via personal recommendation.
Best of luck!

It's not really ethical crud, there is more risk to a homeowner getting a no invoice job(cash job) done than a invoiced job especially with plumbing since the introduction of plastic pipe and push fit fittings.

Sleeper12

deandean wrote: »

OP I am a diy-er and I have done almost all the plumbing in my house. From my vast experience I learned the hard way that there are two jobs I call in plumber for:
1 is soldering copper pipes, and
2 is replacing a copper cylinder.

And it is your choice as to what plumber to engage. You have no need whatsoever to insist on his tax clearance cert or the likes. That's his problem/responsibility. Ignore the ethical crud being offered here and get yourself a good plumber via personal recommendation.
Best of luck!

Its also against form rules to suggest getting a "cash job". Please read rules before posting

DGOBS

I am closing this thread as it's going know where.

No back seat modding please :cool: