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Ricochet vs Osprey Thread

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    Meh, it's New Japan. You know what you're getting when you sign up. That stuff isn't necessarily my cup of tea (though the athleticism is objectively impressive) but I'm glad there's something for everyone in wrestling nowadays. It's good to have variation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭cian68


    Here's the actual match if anyone wants to see it and form an informed opinion.
    Won't be my match of the year or anything but it's still a fun time.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    I'm pretty impressed. Got to see Ospreay with OTT when they were in Limerick a few months ago as well, so that was cool.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,475 ✭✭✭brianregan09


    Don't see nothing wrong with any of that loved Ospreay's finisher he was **** hot when i saw him at OTT in Limerick aswell


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭DM_7


    It was a lot of flippy wrestling (in the highlighted spots), so what?

    It was in a match in the super juniors. That type of action is a big part of the super junior appeal, a major part of the appeal of those two wrestlers and what the fans were paying to see.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 39,407 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    That stuff from new Japan while they are great athletes it's wasn't pro wrestling. Jim cornette would have a banger if he watched that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,868 ✭✭✭Andersonisgod


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    That stuff from new Japan while they are great athletes it's wasn't pro wrestling. Jim cornette would have a banger if he watched that.

    Pro wrestling isn't so narrowly defined, it's whatever you make it. Sure you may have stylistic preferences but I think it's possible to enjoy a match like Ospreay vs Ricochet and also appreciate a match like Kushida vs Kyle O'Reilly from the opening night of the bosj, which was a technical tour de force.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,407 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Pro wrestling isn't so narrowly defined, it's whatever you make it. Sure you may have stylistic preferences but I think it's possible to enjoy a match like Ospreay vs Ricochet and also appreciate a match like Kushida vs Kyle O'Reilly from the opening night of the bosj, which was a technical tour de force.
    No it's not whatever you make it. There are certain things that need to happen and I saw none of them in the match in question. I've watched it and does the art of selling mean anything to the two of them ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,868 ✭✭✭Andersonisgod


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    No it's not whatever you make it. There are certain things that need to happen and I saw none of them in the match in question. I've watched it and does the art of selling mean anything to the two of them ?

    It most certainly is. Your view is far too narrow minded. If you believe that there's only one style of wrestling (presumably that of the old school variation) then you literally must hate all modern day wrestling.

    Here's an old wrestling match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQl6mmAtkbE

    Note the lack of 5 knuckle shuffles, constant running of the ropes, theatrical near-falls ect. Did you enjoy that match? Things evolve, things change. As whacky as that match may seem to someone who isn't accustomed to the style would be as whacky as any modern day match may seem to a wrestling fan of the 1920's.

    At the end of the day, if you're going into an Ospreay vs Ricochet match expecting methodical body work then you're just setting yourself up to be disappointed. I must also point out that while these guys are working at a breathtaking pace, you sell them far too short on their ability to blend in different styles of wrestling into their work in this match, it is, as Enuhito said earlier, a hybrid of a Japanese, English and American style match, Junior Heavyweight wrestling as it has long been.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,611 ✭✭✭✭ERG89


    Thank god he didnt see Yoshihiko wrestle. Not sure how anyone could explain them matches as art or competition.
    I'd actually have more of a problem with how little people sell anymore. An example was when Apollo Crews was beat up by Sheamus pre match on Raw & walks out not selling with a smile on his face. Shout out to Kalisto too who did his stupid spirit squad entrance at Extreme Rules & again on Smackdown despite suffering severe back injuries from the accolade.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭A Rogue Hobo


    I can see why people appreciate that sort of match, there's no denying it looks pretty cool. My only problem with it is it looks a bit too much like a "video game" and for me it takes me out of the story. I enjoyed it for what it was but to me, while their athleticism is incredible, there's not a lot of content to it to enjoy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,407 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    It most certainly is. Your view is far too narrow minded. If you believe that there's only one style of wrestling (presumably that of the old school variation) then you literally must hate all modern day wrestling.
    Wrong I like all wrestling old and modern when done well.

    Here's an old wrestling match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQl6mmAtkbE
    Note the lack of 5 knuckle shuffles, constant running of the ropes, theatrical near-falls ect. Did you enjoy that match? Things evolve, things change. As whacky as that match may seem to someone who isn't accustomed to the style would be as whacky as any modern day match may seem to a wrestling fan of the 1920's.

    Yes I know things evolve. It was grand for the 1920. It had wrestling holds and the two guys sold the moves being done to them. Imagine that ? Selling moves done in a wrestling ring. btw I'm not saying that everything the wwe does is great. I mean cena can't (or won't) sell to save his life. But in saying that his matches don't look completely scripted even though they all are. The match in question looked every bit what it was. A cirque de soleil rip off.

    At the end of the day, if you're going into an Ospreay vs Ricochet match expecting methodical body work then you're just setting yourself up to be disappointed. I must also point out that while these guys are working at a breathtaking pace, you sell them far too short on their ability to blend in different styles of wrestling into their work in this match, it is, as Enuhito said earlier, a hybrid of a Japanese, English and American style match, Junior Heavyweight wrestling as it has long been.

    Good wrestling to me is wrestling that make something that is scripted and predetermined to not look like it is. I will suspend my disbelief if I can with wrestling. That wasn't well done or believable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,868 ✭✭✭Andersonisgod


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    Wrong I like all wrestling old and modern when done well.

    Here's an old wrestling match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQl6mmAtkbE


    Yes I know things evolve. It was grand for the 1920. It had wrestling holds and the two guys sold the moves being done to them. Imagine that ? Selling moves done in a wrestling ring. btw I'm not saying that everything the wwe does is great. I mean cena can't (or won't) sell to save his life. But in saying that his matches don't look completely scripted even though they all are. The match in question looked every bit what it was. A cirque de soleil rip off.


    Good wrestling to me is wrestling that make something that is scripted and predetermined to not look like it is. I will suspend my disbelief if I can with wrestling. That wasn't well done or believable.


    Ok let's run through this because your last line has irritated me a little bit and I'm in an unpleasant mood, I don't really like posting all that often on this board but I'll engage with this because that last paragraph is really something else.

    "Good wrestling to me is wrestling that make something that is scripted and predetermined to not look like it is."


    So nothing that looks fake then? What you are saying here is that if something doesn't look like it could happen in a real fight then it isn't good wrestling....hmmm...... let's investigate.

    Strange, I can't remember that last time I saw this one in the Octagon; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DgXUvJikcQ
    maybe those MMA coaches just aren't up to scratch

    Maybe if Stefan Struve were to put his height to good use and do something like this;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsR9c6_alK4
    he might win more fights.

    But I mean personally, my favourite fight ever was that time Anderson Silva destroyed Forrest Griffin with that sick Tombstone Piledriver...you don't remember? Maybe this will jog your memory;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA7DKDKS6bg

    And don't you just hate it in boxing (or the old Pride days) when one of the boxers hits the ropes and his sheer momentum springs him off to such a degree that he can't stop bouncing off the ropes;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmwVBW_dOm4
    that's just a pet peeve of mine in boxing.

    And why don't they hire some referees that can take a punch in MMA? It seems like every 2nd or 3rd fight the referees get hit and go down, don't they train these guys to stay out of the way?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up9oc3A0OpI

    But the thing I hate most of all in MMA is when you're enjoying a really good fight and then all of a sudden some random fighter just storms the ring and starts beating up a guy for no reason. Like that time Conor McGregor shocked the world and teamed up with his arch rival Jose Aldo to beat down on Frankie Edgar, kinda like when this happened;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVc-J0jWx0w
    Man, I'd love a sport where that didn't happen so often.

    You get my point yet? Real fighting? Everything in that Ospreay vs Ricochet match was about as close to real fighting as practically any worked pro wrestling match you'll ever watch, the difference is that it was far more impressive and entertaining that damn near any wrestling match you'll watch this year.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    Ok let's run through this because your last line has irritated me a little bit and I'm in an unpleasant mood, I don't really like posting all that often on this board but I'll engage with this because that last paragraph is really something else.

    Go out for a walk/do something else and wait to post when you're in a better mood.

    Mod Note: If you can't converse/discuss without dismissing others (i.e. "Your view is far too narrow minded") then don't bother.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,868 ✭✭✭Andersonisgod


    jaykhunter wrote: »
    Go out for a walk/do something else and wait to post when you're in a better mood.

    Mod Note: If you can't converse/discuss without dismissing others (i.e. "Your view is far too narrow minded") then don't bother.

    I can word it differently but it's tough to alter it significantly without diluting the message. In any case, I've made my point, it's a good point.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 689 ✭✭✭Straight Edge Punk


    Wow, that may be the worst post I've ever read on a wrestling forum. Congratulations, that Ospreay match wasn't wrestling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,868 ✭✭✭Andersonisgod


    Wow, that may be the worst post I've ever read on a wrestling forum. Congratulations, that Ospreay match wasn't wrestling.

    And what part of it wasn't wrestling? How much wrestling do you watch by the way? What promotions do you follow/subscribe to? What part of that match bore any less of a resemblance to real fighting than practically any wrestling match you'll see on tv on a weekly basis? Because that's why my post is about, it was no more or no less like a real combat sport than any wrestling match. There are valid criticisms of the match which you can make if you come at it from a certain viewpoint, however saying that it's not "wrestling" because it doesn't resemble a real fight is simply wrong. How about you justify your opinion on why my post is incorrect and why the match wasn't "wrestling."


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 689 ✭✭✭Straight Edge Punk


    That style is not wrestling, it is performing. It's like a well rehearsed ballet, fine to watch but its certainly not wrestling.

    I have been watching wrestling for over 20 years although I don't see how that is relevant to my point. Jake Roberts, Bret and Owen, Benoit, Angle, Arn Anderson, Inoki (if you want to go down the hipster "too cool for school" route) were all WRESTLERS.

    There is certainly a place for the flipping flopping style of performing, of course there is but it is not WRESTLING.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    That style is not wrestling, it is performing. It's like a well rehearsed ballet, fine to watch but its certainly not wrestling.

    I have been watching wrestling for over 20 years although I don't see how that is relevant to my point. Jake Roberts, Bret and Owen, Benoit, Angle, Arn Anderson, Inoki (if you want to go down the hipster "too cool for school" route) were all WRESTLERS.

    There is certainly a place for the flipping flopping style of performing, of course there is but it is not WRESTLING.

    With all due respect, that is bollocks. The strong style stuff from Japan, the technical masterclasses from the Dungeon, the Lucha style from Mexico, the Colt Cabana hokey comedy act. It's all wrestling. It's professional wrestling. That's what we watch. It's under that umbrella. Just remember, what we watch is essentially fake fighting. That's what it really is.

    Of course Chad Gable, Kurt Angle and the Harts have their own variations and genres of it, which are rooted deep in legitimate actual wrestling, as in amateur wrestling, but that doesn't make their style any more real. It's just another variation on what we all watch which is Pro Wrestling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe


    I only got around to watching the match a few days back.

    Its a visual treat and the athleticism and flow of the match is just amazing. Both are brilliant at what they do.

    But while I enjoyed the match, my gripe with the match is that it went too fast for my liking. A little bit more selling, and a little bit of time during spots to digest some of the set pieces would have improved the match for me. Its a minor gripe but I also disliked the facials of Osprey during the match too.

    But these two guys are the future/present of wrestling. I love them.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe


    Omackeral wrote: »
    With all due respect, that is bollocks. The strong style stuff from Japan, the technical masterclasses from the Dungeon, the Lucha style from Mexico, the Colt Cabana hokey comedy act. It's all wrestling. It's professional wrestling. That's what we watch. It's under that umbrella. Just remember, what we watch is essentially fake fighting. That's what it really is.

    Of course Chad Gable, Kurt Angle and the Harts have their own variations and genres of it, which are rooted deep in legitimate actual wrestling, as in amateur wrestling, but that doesn't make their style any more real. It's just another variation on what we all watch which is Pro Wrestling.

    plus 1.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 689 ✭✭✭Straight Edge Punk


    Omackeral wrote: »
    With all due respect, that is bollocks. The strong style stuff from Japan, the technical masterclasses from the Dungeon, the Lucha style from Mexico, the Colt Cabana hokey comedy act. It's all wrestling. It's professional wrestling. That's what we watch. It's under that umbrella. Just remember, what we watch is essentially fake fighting. That's what it really is.

    Of course Chad Gable, Kurt Angle and the Harts have their own variations and genres of it, which are rooted deep in legitimate actual wrestling, as in amateur wrestling, but that doesn't make their style any more real. It's just another variation on what we all watch which is Pro Wrestling.

    I watch all of the above styles you mentioned and enjoy them but I won't compare them to old school, proper legit wrestling, catch style if you will. What I see with guys like these is very well rehearsed, very well performed dance routines. There is no story telling, no realistic selling and that is where my problem lies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe


    I watch all of the above styles you mentioned and enjoy them but I won't compare them to old school, proper legit wrestling, catch style if you will. What I see with guys like these is very well rehearsed, very well performed dance routines. There is no story telling, no realistic selling and that is where my problem lies.

    All wrestling is a routine. Its all a performance, with the opponent being a dance partner if you will, with at least some rehearsal involved


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe


    I watch all of the above styles you mentioned and enjoy them but I won't compare them to old school, proper legit wrestling, catch style if you will. What I see with guys like these is very well rehearsed, very well performed dance routines. There is no story telling, no realistic selling and that is where my problem lies.

    I'm not trying to be smart, but have you watched the Chet/Will match. Its not the perfect match, but it has a good story, it may lack a certain amount of selling, but it does have selling and it is rehearsed but what match isn't rehearsed to a degree. Theres some spot I didn't like, like the double flip at the beginning (while its impressive I thought it was overkill) but the match is great IMO.

    I loved the match, will it has a few negative spots, overall its a treat for me and I would love to see them do battle again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,868 ✭✭✭Andersonisgod


    That style is not wrestling, it is performing. It's like a well rehearsed ballet, fine to watch but its certainly not wrestling.

    I have been watching wrestling for over 20 years although I don't see how that is relevant to my point. Jake Roberts, Bret and Owen, Benoit, Angle, Arn Anderson, Inoki (if you want to go down the hipster "too cool for school" route) were all WRESTLERS.

    There is certainly a place for the flipping flopping style of performing, of course there is but it is not WRESTLING.

    Because you seem wildly out of touch with modern wrestling outside of perhaps the mainstream stuff.

    Nearly all of pro wrestling is a well-rehearsed ballet. Sure there are crazy health risks but that's essentially what all wrestling us, whether it is engaging in aerial, flippy attacks, trading holds on the matter or working near falls.

    Ironically some of the stuff Angle and Benoit did Inoki or Roberts would have absolutely hated. Again I stress, there is no one right way of wrestling.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭LeeJM


    My take on Rico and Billy is it was a good match. Enjoyable battle between 2 of the best of that aerial style. BUT, it wouldnt be getting even 1 tenth of the coverage its getting if Vader didnt shít all over it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 689 ✭✭✭Straight Edge Punk


    Because you seem wildly out of touch with modern wrestling outside of perhaps the mainstream stuff.

    Nearly all of pro wrestling is a well-rehearsed ballet. Sure there are crazy health risks but that's essentially what all wrestling us, whether it is engaging in aerial, flippy attacks, trading holds on the matter or working near falls.

    Ironically some of the stuff Angle and Benoit did Inoki or Roberts would have absolutely hated. Again I stress, there is no one right way of wrestling.

    The problem I have with this style is the lack of selling, i know we are all meant to suspend our belief when it comes to wrestling but when you have guys doing acrobatics for 25/30 minutes while they are meant to be hurt I just can't suspend the belief that much.

    As I said, I will watch the matches and enjoy them but I just wouldn't call them WRESTLING, it is much more of a performance than a wrestling match.

    This opinion holds up for the likes of the Japanese death matches and any other garbage style matches. IMO these are mainly guys who can't get to grips with the basics of wrestling so use things like this to cover up they fact.

    NOTE: I said mainly, not everyone and I know Inoki was involved in a deathmatch.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,102 ✭✭✭✭J. Marston


    The ending of the match was so stupid...

    https://gfycat.com/DefiantOrangeGorilla

    Ricochet gets kicked in the head twice. Reaction? Nothing, he stands up and strolls over to counter some flippy shít. He then gets countered, receives another kick to the head (which misses by about 4 miles) and then walks over to receive the finisher.

    Load of crap.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,868 ✭✭✭Andersonisgod


    The problem I have with this style is the lack of selling, i know we are all meant to suspend our belief when it comes to wrestling but when you have guys doing acrobatics for 25/30 minutes while they are meant to be hurt I just can't suspend the belief that much.

    As I said, I will watch the matches and enjoy them but I just wouldn't call them WRESTLING, it is much more of a performance than a wrestling match.

    This opinion holds up for the likes of the Japanese death matches and any other garbage style matches. IMO these are mainly guys who can't get to grips with the basics of wrestling so use things like this to cover up they fact.

    NOTE: I said mainly, not everyone and I know Inoki was involved in a deathmatch.

    To me though that's a lack of understanding of the context of the match. It's a BOSJ match, it's supposed to be a sprint, it's not going to be a 20 minute+ marathon. Maybe if the match were to happen outside of the BOSJ format and they were given 20+ minutes then it would be paced slightly slower with more room between spots. Personally I loved the match, that they just went out there in that format with their aim being to blow the roof off the place and make the absolute most of the time they were given. They did exactly that. I mean what person is going into an Ospreay vs Ricochet match hoping to see a 7 minutes of mat work or extended body part selling? Who are these people?

    I thought the selling in the Cena vs Owens series was abysmal but I wouldn't say it wasn't wrestling. I mean you can't not acknowledge that in the Ospreay vs Ricochet match you'll see evidence of European, American and Japanese style wrestling and certainly some elements of lucha too. Just because they don't fit into the narrow confines of your perspective of wrestling doesn't make it not wrestling.

    That's extremely harsh to label all Japanese death match guys as workers who don't understand the basics. Tomoaki Honma and Shuji Ishikawa are two great modern examples of death math guys who are also magnificent straight up wrestlers too. Don't be so quick to write those guys off.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,491 ✭✭✭thebostoncrab


    So anyone who knows me knows I'm a huge Dragon Gate fan and, as hard as it can be at times, get up to date with each show. I'm a huge huge huge fan of junior heavyweights and am often amazed at the things these guys can do. What I love, in particular, is that even know it is fast paced and "full of flips" (Side note, I hate that term), the guys actually sell every move. When they get a burst of energy they don't forget everything that happened before hand and will sell the leg, breathe heavily and all that stuff that makes the match feel real and full of impact.

    This brings us to the Will and Rich matchup. It is a huge testament to the athletic ability of both men, and honestly normally I enjoy both of these guys matches. But the fact that there was no selling during the contest and it felt like spot after spot after spot, it just sucked out the enjoyment I had of the match. I wasn't invested in either guy, and I just didn't care who won. That is an issue. With wrestling I'm supposed to care who wins, even if I'm a fan of both guys. Tell me a story, that's what makes wrestling great.

    And before I'm asked, of course all matches are spots and transitions into spots; however, it's hidden and designed to not come across a spot set ups. Rather it all seems natural and decided on the spot. This is what makes the likes of Akira Tozawa, Kota Ibushi, BxB Hulk, Cima so so good to watch.


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