Is this legal ?

Simon2015

I was on Harcourt Street last Saturday and saw some pubs/clubs were still open after 3 AM.

Is this legal ? I thought all pubs/clubs were not allowed to open past 2:30 AM ?

Handsome Brute

Simon2015 wrote: »

I was on Harcourt Street last Saturday and saw some pubs/clubs were still open after 3 AM.

Is this legal ? I thought all pubs/clubs were not allowed to open past 2:30 AM ?

If they had a hotel attached onto them (Coppers) they have a licence which permits them to stay open for as long as they want no matter how big or small the hotel is compared to the club venue below it.

Simon2015

Handsome Brute wrote: »

If they had a hotel attached onto them (Coppers) they have a licence which permits them to stay open for as long as they want no matter how big or small the hotel is compared to the club venue below it.

Well one of the places I saw open was a stand alone bar not too far from where the pod nightclub use to be.

There's no where on Harcourt street that isn't attached to a hotel!
There's only the old odeon bar, dunno what it's called now, definitely doesn't stay open until after 3!

Simon2015

bubblypop wrote: »

There's no where on Harcourt street that isn't attached to a hotel!
There's only the old odeon bar, dunno what it's called now, definitely doesn't stay open until after 3!

It did the other night. I didn't go in but they were still letting people in after 3 AM.

L1011

Handsome Brute wrote: »

If they had a hotel attached onto them (Coppers) they have a licence which permits them to stay open for as long as they want no matter how big or small the hotel is compared to the club venue below it.

No, they don't. Residents bars require people to be checked in guests.

SteoL

L1011 wrote: »

No, they don't. Residents bars require people to be checked in guests.

True. I remember (in my drinking days) trying to get into a residents bar even pretending we were checked in guests but when we gave the bouncer our 'room number' it didn't exist.

Handsome Brute

L1011 wrote: »

No, they don't. Residents bars require people to be checked in guests.

Well do you have any other reason why clubs are open past legal opening hours ?

L1011

Handsome Brute wrote: »

Well do you have any other reason why clubs are open past legal opening hours ?

Because they get away with it.

Hotel licences have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Handsome Brute

L1011 wrote: »

Because they get away with it.

Hotel licences have absolutely nothing to do with it.

They have everything to do with it. It's a half measure. Yes we have a hotel license but maybe not all the people in the bar are staying at the hotel (wink wink). I have been kicked out of plenty of bars in Dublin because they have no hotel.

RasTa

Who cares, they are chancing their arm. Happens every weekend if you know where to go. I was getting pints after 3 on Friday because of the Springsteen gig and to a lesser extend the match.

L1011

Handsome Brute wrote: »

They have everything to do with it. It's a half measure. Yes we have a hotel license but maybe not all the people in the bar are staying at the hotel (wink wink). I have been kicked out of plenty of bars in Dublin because they have no hotel.

No, they really, really don't. If raided, the hotel register will be checked. It doesn't get that far as they are not going to make a claim that 800 people in a nightclub are staying in a 20 bedroom hotel in the first place. You are incorrect - just accept it.

These venues get away with it because they are never raided. Some of them are, surprisingly, owned by former members of the Gardai. Other bars aren't as lucky or don't bother pushing their luck - nothing to do with having a hotel.

Handsome Brute

L1011 wrote: »

No, they really, really don't. If raided, the hotel register will be checked. It doesn't get that far as they are not going to make a claim that 800 people in a nightclub are staying in a 20 bedroom hotel in the first place. You are incorrect - just accept it.

These venues get away with it because they are never raided. Some of them are, surprisingly, owned by former members of the Gardai. Other bars aren't as lucky or don't bother pushing their luck - nothing to do with having a hotel.

I wont accept anything thank you very much. Mine and your guesses are opinions and nothing else with no evidence to back it so we can't be right or wrong. Maybe I'm just not so happy because establishments choose to ignore the law and the law chooses to ignore them. But that's how it is I suppose. I'm all for the craic but bending the rules makes things just messy.

L1011

Handsome Brute wrote: »

I wont accept anything thank you very much. Mine and your guesses are opinions and nothing else with no evidence to back it so we can't be right or wrong. Maybe I'm just not so happy because establishments choose to ignore the law and the law chooses to ignore them. But that's how it is I suppose. I'm all for the craic but bending the rules makes things just messy.

No, your opinion is not a guess - its simply untrue, and you are wrong. You do not understand how residents bars work.

The nightclubs on Harcourt Street are not operating as residents bars. That is a fact.

They are staying open illegally late. That is also a fact.

Whatever assumptions about how they away with that can be considered guesses but there's rather a lot of information to make those guesses from.

Handsome Brute

L1011 wrote: »

No, your opinion not a guess - its simply untrue, and you are wrong. You do not understand how residents bars work.

The nightclubs on Harcourt Street are not operating as residents bars. That is a fact.

They are staying open illegally late. That is also a fact.

Whatever assumptions about how they away with that can be considered guesses but there's rather a lot of information to make those guesses from.

I'm going to leave you alone now because it's childish carry on. And I'm not an expert on residents bars like you so I feel somewhat intimidated.

L1011

Handsome Brute wrote: »

I'm going to leave you alone now because it's childish carry on. And I'm not an expert on residents bars like you so I feel somewhat intimidated.

You were being incredibly defensive of what you proposed as facts for someone who seems to now admit not knowing about them...

Simon2015

The people who own these clubs/pubs must have paid off the right people.

I remember last year walking past a well known club on Harcourt St that was still open at 4 AM.

I don't have a problem with places opening late but I do have a problem with the law turning a blind eye to this. It just shows that corruption is alive and well in Ireland.

Another thing to consider is that if somebody falls or has an accident in a club that is operating outside of legal opening hours the clubs insurance is probably no longer valid.

seamus

Opening and serving are two different things. A nightclub doesn't have to close and throw everyone out at 2:30, they just have to stop selling alcohol.

Most places will push the boundaries because they know they're unlikely to be raided, but most of the time when people are pouring out at 3:30am it's because they bought their last drink 45 minutes ago but only left now.

Our licencing laws need an overhaul anyway. So many nonsensical restrictions that just stack up into regulations that everyone ignores.

I was in a bar that was served well after 12am on Good Friday this year. And glad for it.

GM228

seamus wrote: »

Opening and serving are two different things. A nightclub doesn't have to close and throw everyone out at 2:30, they just have to stop selling alcohol.

But they have to try to get everyone out by 3AM.

I stress the word try as the offence is for permitting people to stay on the premises, if you ask people to leave and they refuse they are on the premises without permission and so once the staff ask all to leave before 3AM and no alcohol has been sold since 2.30AM then there are no consequences for the publican as long as all efforts are made to clear the premises.

seamus wrote: »

Most places will push the boundaries because they know they're unlikely to be raided, but most of the time when people are pouring out at 3:30am it's because they bought their last drink 45 minutes ago but only left now.

Very true about pushing the boundaries.

Last drinks are 2.30AM and 30 minutes drink up time is allowed.

However since 2000 if a premises is also engaged in mixed trading (non licenced business) it can stay open as long as it likes as mixed trading has no time restrictions. i.e if there is no alcohol consumption past 3AM they can stay open all night if they want if they sell non alcohol products such as soft drinks, cigarettes etc. An excellent defence for the publican.

oblivious

Handsome Brute and L1011 let keep the discussion to the title of the thread please.

Handsome Brute

seamus wrote: »

Opening and serving are two different things. A nightclub doesn't have to close and throw everyone out at 2:30, they just have to stop selling alcohol.

Most places will push the boundaries because they know they're unlikely to be raided, but most of the time when people are pouring out at 3:30am it's because they bought their last drink 45 minutes ago but only left now.

Our licencing laws need an overhaul anyway. So many nonsensical restrictions that just stack up into regulations that everyone ignores.

I was in a bar that was served well after 12am on Good Friday this year. And glad for it.

Very true. If you look at the bigger picture some bars in other parts of the country might be told to close on the hour while in other parts they are aloud to keep serving. Its lost revenue to the bar man who had to close and its his livelihood at the end of the day! Its bad enough that cheep drink is ruining the trade as it is.

minidazzler

A blind eye is turned due to Dublin City Council basically instructing the gardai that having every club and late bar clear out at the same time is disastrous and to stagger closing times to prevent public order offences.

It IS strictly speaking, illegal, but it's also highly necessary.

If you have a Special Exemption order you have to stop serving at 2:30am on a Friday and Saturday and all entertainment must be turned off during the 30 minutes drinking up time.

Licencing laws in this country are a complete and utter joke. A Business has to pay 410 euro a night not including lawyer fee's just to stay open til 230. That, at 361 possible late nights a year is just under 150k.

Lyaiera

If they were prosecuted they would probably be found guilty of an offence. There's just no real desire from the people who would play an influential part in starting the process of a prosecution to do so.

They're using their discretion. I would imagine every single person in Ireland could, at some point, with a little effort be prosecuted and found guilty of jay-walking. No-one wants to go after them though.

Laws are important, but so is common sense and discretion.

Simon2015

The authorities do go after some clubs that open late.

It must be the case that if you pay off the right people or know the right people you can get away with opening late.

There is a well known nightclub on harcourt street that I bet can open whatever hours they want because of their garda connections.


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/night-club-owner-told-hes-treading-on-thin-ice-26272952.html

THE owner of one of Dublin's trendiest night clubs was told by a judge yesterday that he was treading on "very thin ice" when he appeared in court on his 14th after-hours offence.
Robbie Fox, the boss of top celebrity nightspot Renards - who recently spent his 50th birthday bash partying with Bono and the Corrs - was fined ?1,300 for selling intoxicating liquor outside the times of his licence and fined a further ?1,500 for keeping his premises open after hours.



The incident happened when gardai visited his premises at South Frederick Street in Dublin last May and found people drinking there and music playing at 3.30am.
Nine of Mr Fox's 14 convictions have been in the last three years, despite licensing laws having been relaxed to allow pubs to open later.

In January, he pleaded guilty at Dublin District Court to his most recent after-hours offence and he told the court that he had to stay open to survive in business. But yesterday, as Judge Cormac Dunne imposed the fine, he told Mr Fox that he was treading on "very thin ice".
Mr Fox's lawyer, Dorothy Collins, said that he had since mended his ways and that gardai had found no further breaches at his premises.

the beer revolu

Lyaiera wrote: »

If they were prosecuted they would probably be found guilty of an offence. There's just no real desire from the people who would play an influential part in starting the process of a prosecution to do so.

They're using their discretion. I would imagine every single person in Ireland could, at some point, with a little effort be prosecuted and found guilty of jay-walking. No-one wants to go after them though.

Laws are important, but so is common sense and discretion.

Discretion and common sense are wonderful things when they go hand in hand.
There seems to be wildly different applications of both depending on where your business is located. There appears to be very different licencing hours and laws depending on location despite everywhere operating under the same laws. But maybe that's how change happens.

Lyaiera

the beer revolu wrote: »

Discretion and common sense are wonderful things when they go hand in hand.
There seems to be wildly different applications of both depending on where your business is located. There appears to be very different licencing hours and laws depending on location despite everywhere operating under the same laws. But maybe that's how change happens.

As far as I know, in most places it is a Garda Seargant who has direct responsibility for policing licencing laws, as in it is their portfolio and broader job title. A lot of people have influence, and input, but it is their responsibility. I have heard from a lot of people that person in Cork is very strict, I don't know if this is because of other stakeholders pressure. In parts of Dublin this person is less strict.

I would absolutely be in favour of a national discussion of licencing laws. I think McDowell was an evil man and one of the few good things that came out of his mouth was the proposal for small businesses, who I feel are much better at dealing with and much more willing to deal with problematic drinking to be under the purview of different licencing law than big pubs, and clubs. Of course the Vintners threw a hissy fit.

I know a few pub owners, most of them despise the publicans associations and lobby groups.

BeerNut

Lyaiera wrote: »

I would absolutely be in favour of a national discussion of licencing laws.

A Sale of Alcohol bill is due from the Department of Justice some time soon. That'll be the national discussion. Don't miss it.

loyatemu

BeerNut wrote: »

A Sale of Alcohol bill is due from the Department of Justice some time soon. That'll be the national discussion. Don't miss it.

won't somebody think of the childer Joe...

minidazzler

Lyaiera wrote: »

As far as I know, in most places it is a Garda Seargant who has direct responsibility for policing licencing laws, as in it is their portfolio and broader job title. A lot of people have influence, and input, but it is their responsibility. I have heard from a lot of people that person in Cork is very strict, I don't know if this is b.

We got a new superintendent in Cork a few years back who sent goons around to every late bar at 1:30 and told them shut down. I'm not sure he legally has any authority to do this, though, an SEO does explicitly grant 2 extra hours opening, so 1:30 would be mostly correct, he was a prick about it.

I don't know if superintendents changed hands but last summer bars started staying open and serving until 2:30 rather than 2 on a friday and saturday night. There was talk that this was gonna be extended to 3, but it hasn't happened as far as I can see.

And you would be right, the superintendent has a mandate for the enforcement of licencing laws, but there is apparently an expectation that they take the advice of local councils into account, not that they would be legally required to.

ohnonotgmail

Simon2015 wrote: »

The authorities do go after some clubs that open late.

It must be the case that if you pay off the right people or know the right people you can get away with opening late.

There is a well known nightclub on harcourt street that I bet can open whatever hours they want because of their garda connections.


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/night-club-owner-told-hes-treading-on-thin-ice-26272952.html

Renards? thats a real blast from the blast. the place was demolished recently. In fairness they used to take the p*ss when it came to opening late.

quadrifoglio verde

Simon2015 wrote: »

The authorities do go after some clubs that open late.

It must be the case that if you pay off the right people or know the right people you can get away with opening late.

There is a well known nightclub on harcourt street that I bet can open whatever hours they want because of their garda connections.


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/night-club-owner-told-hes-treading-on-thin-ice-26272952.html

Robbie Fox was cunning. A late licence back then was around 260 a night (think its 400 a night now). Open late 11 nights without getting caught and the 2800 in fines have been covered. This was his fourteenth conviction in three years for it and fines generally increase the more times you get caught. Maths makes sense to me

Our licensing rules need major overhaul. I've lost count of the amount of times i left the village or palace when i was in college and headed over to coppers after the others stopped serving. It should be the same rule for all and that rule should be you can stop serving when you want. If a publican wants to shut up shop at half 11 at night, let him, likewise 5 in the morning if he so wishes.

Lyaiera

While I do think bars should have much more freedom over when they open and close I don't think it's a simple issue in many ways. My biggest criteria is how the bar looks after their patrons. There's a definite divide for me between big pubs and small pubs, and pubs that rely on security for managing the crowd, and pubs that rely on someone working the bar.

Security is basically necessary for a big pub, the people behind the bar can't watch everyone, and customers can confuse them by going to a different barperson every time. In a small pub, where one or two barpeople, and maybe a manager have a view of everyone in the pub, and notice everyone who comes to the bar it's much easier to manage the people in the crowd, drunkeness, and security.

L1011

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

If a publican wants to shut up shop at half 11 at night, let him, likewise 5 in the morning if he so wishes.

And despite people thinking they'd all stay open all night in this case; even in the UK where councils have the say and 24h is allowed there are areas with permissive councils and pubs that still shut at 11 - or sometimes even earlier - alongside those that are kicking out when the milkmen come round the next morning. People start going home when they want to rather than 'hanging on' to the end.