Just discovered "quick chat" with manager yesterday was actually a verbal warning.

AdviceSought

Would love to hear some people’s thoughts on this matter?

Yesterday when I was leaving for the evening, my manager casually asked me to join her in the conference room for a chat. I wasn’t overly surprised as earlier we had clashed in the office over a decision. A professional clash might I add, we were alone and all it was was, frustration and a difference in opinion.

When I got in there, there was a manger from another department who I was told would be joining us as a witness. I was informed that my manager just wanted to raise some concerns with me. She raised them, we chatted amicably, admitted our wrongs, shook hands and drew a line.

This morning however I received an email detailing the notes from my , Verbal Warning. I was completely shocked by it, never have I received a warning of any sort, nor was this justified. However the way it was handled has baffled me. Furthermore the notes taken where sugar coated in her favour, to make me seem like I was completely to blame and I had accepted this and I will vow to improve.

What baffles me the most however Is the way this verbal warning process followed. Never was I made aware this was a warning of any sort. It was sold to me as a chat, and conducted in that manner. Has the proper legal process been followed here as I am very distressed about the whole situation.

screamer

Bad form from your manager sounds like a coward to me. You should have been made aware of the meeting well in advance and the nature of it too. I often documented meetings and sent notes but these were chats between myself as the manager and the employee not verbal warnings. Id reply to say that you disagree with the minutes as detailed and I would go to HR. Likely they know about this meeting already but I still would go to HR.

Timberrrrrrrr

Do you have a company handbook that maybe sets out guidelines for these proceedings?

Personally I would not accept this warning and as said above I would be onto HR about this, you should have been given a chance to have a union rep/work colleague with you as a witness also.

Bandana boy

I would have thought that this is exactly how a verbal warning should happen , it is not as formal as later stages in the process.
Although they should state it was a verbal warning during the meeting.

livedadream

So best practice is:

letter inviting you to a meeting - sometimes called an investigation meeting 24 hours minimum notice. You are allowed bring a person with you a colleague or union rep.

you will be advised of the issue and asked to explain,give your side of the story.

following the meeting you will be issued a letter with the minutes.

if there is a case to be answered there will be another meeting.

At this meeting you will be advised of being issued a verbal warning and how to appeal etc, ramifications etc.
this meeting/letter HAS to detail what the warning is being issued for, why (ie is it a breach of a rule, poor performance etc) how long it will be on file for (first verbal is in general 3 months but ive seen 6 months), how to appeal, how to improve and any other action being taken.

Complain to HR and advise that you were not told in advance that this was a disaplinary meeting that the actions on both your parts were inadvisable however you have been disciplined without notice and without due process.

your manager is due a bollocking from HR for fcuking up.

AdviceSought

Thank you for all the very informative replies, much appreciated. Confirms my doubts I have about the whole situation.

Starokan

Proper procedure was not followed here at all, I would definitely dispute it

Contact HR yourself and explain the situation

Mrs OBumble

livedadream wrote: »

So best practice is:

.....

your manager is due a bollocking from HR for fcuking up.

Careful now.

What livedadream has outlined is "best practise" - according to CIPD or NERA or somesuch.

But there is no legal requirement for any company to follow "best practise".

All they have to do is have a disciplinary process, and follow it.

So - OP, your first step is to read your contract, employee handbook and other company documents which may have your company's disciplinary process.


Only decide next steps after that: once you know if there's an appeal process, what their consequences etc might be.

livedadream

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Careful now.

What livedadream has outlined is "best practise" - according to CIPD or NERA or somesuch.

yeah god forbid we try to encourage the HR heads to do the best job they can, and I clearly said it was best practice in my post.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But there is no legal requirement for any company to follow "best practise".

true

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

All they have to do is have a disciplinary process, and follow it.

A company can of course have whatever disciplinary process they want, but that doesnt make it legal or correct, and it certainly wont stand up in the WRC. They have not followed standard procedure or due process. This goes to the WRC, he wins, simples.


I understand you have an issue with me Mrs Bumble but leading the OP here down the garden path to have a go at me is pointless.

Over 80% of successful claims for unfair dismissal are won by employees because the employer has failed to afford fair dismissal procedures in carrying out the termination. (source CIPD Ireland, you seem to love it so much)

feel free to argue with me about my experience all day long by private mail, but what you have said is incorrect and is unfair to the OP.

lawred2

Bandana boy wrote: »

I would have thought that this is exactly how a verbal warning should happen , it is not as formal as later stages in the process.
Although they should state it was a verbal warning during the meeting.

You have thought wrong. What happened here was wholly unacceptable.

Funny how this manager made sure she had a 'witness' but offered no such consideration to the OP.

Bang out of order.

Squall Leonhart

If my manager wanted a chat and then introduced a person as a witness, I'd immediately be asking questions. A witness to what, for what purpose etc..

I find it odd that you glossed over this at the time ?

First Up

What were you warned about exactly?

Irish_Elect_Eng

Depending on your company's process what occurred could either have been acceptable or not, what does your disciplinary procedure say?

What was the tone of the original disagreement, were you aggressive in that confrontation? You said that you were alone with your manager for that first argument, was she afraid, is that why she had the witness?

Some more detail would help provide a balanced reply.

Eoin

livedadream wrote: »

A company can of course have whatever disciplinary process they want, but that doesnt make it legal or correct, and it certainly wont stand up in the WRC. They have not followed standard procedure or due process. This goes to the WRC, he wins, simples.
...
Over 80% of successful claims for unfair dismissal are won by employees because the employer has failed to afford fair dismissal procedures in carrying out the termination.

I completely agree with you here. The court is full of cases where the employer was 100% right to sack someone, but didn't do it properly.

If the company's disciplinary procedure does not follow the principles of natural justice, they'll be ruled against very quickly. A bit more info here.

But obviously it would be completely ridiculous to go to court over a verbal warning, so the question is how it affects the OP from now on and how to go about it without damaging the relationship more than necessary. While citing law might be correct, it may not be the best approach.

Mrs OBumble

Eoin wrote: »

I completely agree with you here. The court is full of cases where the employer was 100% right to sack someone, but didn't do it properly.

If the company's disciplinary procedure does not follow the principles of natural justice, they'll be ruled against very quickly. A bit more info here.

But obviously it would be completely ridiculous to go to court over a verbal warning, so the question is how it affects the OP from now on and how to go about it without damaging the relationship more than necessary. While citing law might be correct, it may not be the best approach.

Exactly.

It also depends on the quality of lawyer who each side can afford, and is able to engage - and whether the employee is willing to take the career hit that winning a legal case provides.

The law is sometimes an ass, and most companies practise what might be called "rest practise".

daheff

AdviceSought wrote: »

This morning however I received an email detailing the notes from my , Verbal Warning. I was completely shocked by it, never have I received a warning of any sort, nor was this justified. However the way it was handled has baffled me. Furthermore the notes taken where sugar coated in her favour, to make me seem like I was completely to blame and I had accepted this and I will vow to improve.

if you dont agree with what was said, or how it was put, respond in writing (ccing hr) outlining your view on the meeting. If you did not accept blame state that categorically.

AdviceSought wrote: »

What baffles me the most however Is the way this verbal warning process followed. Never was I made aware this was a warning of any sort. It was sold to me as a chat, and conducted in that manner. Has the proper legal process been followed here as I am very distressed about the whole situation.

As other posters said, check HR handbook on procedures for how this should have happened. If it wasnt above board be prepared for other 'dodgy' situations to 'appear'.

common trick for companies/managers wanting rid of staff is to railroad the employee out and worry about payoffs afterwards.

if i were in your shoes, I'd be dusting off your cv and getting prepared for interviewing.