Cycling Etiquette

LLMMLL

I'm a fairly inexperienced cyclist and was just wondering what was the correct thing to do in the following situation:

I was cycling from city centre to Cork St. so going Dame St -> Patrick St. -> Coombe. Anyway, relatively soon after getting onto Patrick St., instead of being in the cycle lane I moved to the right most lane. My reasoning for this was that there was a big gap in traffic (making it easy to move right) and if I stayed in the cycle lane, it would be difficult to move into the right-most lane (for the purpose of turning right onto the Coombe) as in my experience signalling that I'm going to move right in moving traffic causes cars behind me to speed up and cut me off. So I was in the right most lane and kept to the left part of that lane. The driver behind me was beeping and shouting to use the cycle lane. The only alternative I could see though was to stay in cycle lane until reach the traffic lights at the right turn, wait for the pedestrian lights to go, and move right then.

What's the corect way to do this?

OleRodrigo

It's a tricky one - similar to turning right towards Ballybough in Fairview.

IMO, keep in the cycling lane, look over your shoulder for the all clear, signal, and move out taking the lane . If there's a car coming up in the right lane, eyeball them while keeping the signal to the right turn - you can't do anymore. Turning to make eye contact makes all the difference with hairy maneuvers, I find.

From your description, it sounds like the motorist was in the right, but had he known the difficulty of your position he might not have beeped and cut you some slack.

ollaetta

I see people doing what you did there quite regularly. I also feel you should have stayed in the cycle lane on the left. Reason being that there is a raised central median along there and by cycling beside it you are liable to block cars in the outer lane.

I speak as a cyclist myself and use that route daily. The lights at Kevin Street include a lengthy right turn arrow phase so you get plenty of time to move from the cycle lane on the left after the cars going straight have stopped. It's way safer.

Wishbone Ash

OleRodrigo wrote: »

... it sounds like the motorist was in the right, but had he known the difficulty of your position he might not have beeped and cut you some slack.

How would you think the motorist was correct? It's a shared road space and the cyclist isn't obliged to use the cycle lane. Using a vehicle horn in a non-emergency situation isn't legit either. I would have taken the lane and put out my right arm to indicate that I was intending to turn right. (I take that turn regularly and never have any difficulty).

NiallBoo

What you did was perfect, don't worry about it.

ted1

The driver must know you , wave back.

Horn blowers are the worst. Generally they are the ones who hold you up at ATMs or at supermarkets checkouts etc, how would they react if people started shouting at them. A metal box doesn't make you immune to having manners

07Lapierre

Turning right on a bike or while driving is the same. Indicate, mirror (or look over your shoulder), manoeuvre.

When cycling I find if you can do the above "at pace", it's a lot easier. If motorist see your making an effort to manoeuvre quickly the're a lot more tolerant.

LLMMLL

Thanks Guys,

Think I'll just do what I've been doing (at least on roads where I'm unfamiliar with the light sequences ahead).

Kaisr Sose

I don't think you did anything wrong there. The motorist was an ass. Chances are they get stopped at Kevin st junction and/or some other lights so big swinging if they have to apply force to the brake for a cyclist too! That's what driving in traffic is all about and the motorist needs to learn how to share the road properly not you!

De Bhál

You should be in the middle of the right hand lane, if you are to the left of it the driver might try squeeze by you. If you feel a car behind you stick out your arm to indicate you're turning right up ahead. I think most drivers once they know what you're up to are patient once you make it clear.

CramCycle

Fine other than the indicating, indicating shows intent and most would just back off. I would have held the lane at that point as well presuming you are tno too far from the junction

OleRodrigo

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

How would you think the motorist was correct? It's a shared road space and the cyclist isn't obliged to use the cycle lane. Using a vehicle horn in a non-emergency situation isn't legit either. I would have taken the lane and put out my right arm to indicate that I was intending to turn right. (I take that turn regularly and never have any difficulty).

Because it sounds, and I could be wrong, that he took the right lane too far back , which in the absence of clear intent to turn right would make him appear to be an obstruction across two lanes, to motorists coming up behind. In which case, they are right to be annoyed.

CramCycle

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Because it sounds, and I could be wrong, that he took the right lane too far back , which in the absence of clear intent to turn right would make him appear to be an obstruction across two lanes, to motorists coming up behind. In which case, they are right to be annoyed.

Hard to tell but I thought he meant he was clearly in the right lane, just over to the left of it. It does sound like he went there early but sometimes it has to be done, i often take the right lane when turning right on the N11 a bit early if a gap in traffic makes it safe to do so.

Wishbone Ash

He/she said they crossed when there was a large gap in traffic. It's not a dedicated turn right lane. If the motorist was intending to go straight ahead, by your logic, they shouldn't be their either so why harass the cyclist? If the motorist intended to turn right then again, by your logic, they are also in the lane too soon.

OleRodrigo

Well, I guess there is some variation on how this scenario is being visualized.

CramCycle

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

He/she said they crossed when there was a large gap in traffic. It's not a dedicated turn right lane. If the motorist was intending to go straight ahead, by your logic, they shouldn't be their either so why harass the cyclist? If the motorist intended to turn right then again, by your logic, they are also in the lane too soon.

I'd expect a motorist turning right to be in the right hand lane, I know the road has a right turn lane a few metres before hand. Far to short a distance for a cyclist to merge across in my opinion.

it really depends on what the OP thinks "early" is, the fact that it was Patrick St means that they had only about 500m in total to merge over from the start. Anytime after the meridian at Patricks park ends is reasonable for starting to merge over, before that would be too early unless the OP could see that traffic would not catch him until after that. But thats just me.

The only error I see is that the Op should have indicated to signal intent, probably would have diffused the entire situation.

CapnHex

In my experience, motorists are only too happy to offer cycling advise, usually through the medium of their car horns. It's a wonder these helpful souls don't suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome, as they must also beep every offending car parked in a cycle lane, on double yellow lines, blocking traffic in yellow boxes, going too slow, going too fast, turning right on red filter lights, accelerating through red lights at junctions.
My advice is to find what works for you at various junctions. Sometimes I'll dismount and cross with pedestrians at some junctions, other times go with the traffic, whichever feels safest.

Fian

OP you have as much entitlement to that lane as the motorist, more if you are turning right and he intends to proceed ahead. If he was also turning right he has no business trying to overtake another right turning vehicle in the approach to a junction. Motorist was being an ass, he is not entitled to expect you to "get out of his way and off his road."

If it had been me I would probably have boiled over, I am generally calm but interactions like this when I am on a bike tend to enrage me, probably because I am conscious/nervous that the motorist is comfortably enclosed in a 2 ton metal cage and I am much more vulnerable. Having said that I try to contain myself and not to react, or more frequently to smile broadly, wave and give a thumbs up, as if I think the driver is beeping to say hello. That tends to make my own irritation dissipate and it seems to transfer it to the driver in question.

jive

Whenever some gobsheen beeps the horn just imagine it's like some kind of car high 5 for your cycling skills, give them a good smile and carry on.

droidus

Next time take the reg and report them to trafficwatch for intimidating behaviour, road rage and illegal use of their horn.

Roadhawk

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Well, I guess there is some variation on how this scenario is being visualized.

Of course there is. These conversations always result in cyclist Vs motorist.

Roadhawk

droidus wrote: »

Next time take the reg and report them to trafficwatch for intimidating behaviour, road rage and illegal use of their horn.

Seriously? Its not illegal to beep at a cyclists. Where did you think that up? The Regulations also provide that a driver may use a horn only to warn other road users of oncoming danger, or to make them aware of the driver’s presence for safety reasons when reasonably necessary. A horn may not be used in a built-up area between 11 pm and 7 am unless there is a traffic emergency.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/environmental_protection/noise_regulations.html

CramCycle

Roadhawk wrote: »

Of course there is. These conversations always result in cyclist Vs motorist.

Except in this case it is not, it is motorist assaults cyclist. Did the cyclist do something to something to invite this behaviour? (not that this is any excuse for the drivers behaviour) or was the cyclist appropriate in his behaviour and the motorist has no defense?

Singular, and to be fair, the OP asks advice, is not giving out about the motorist but seekign to improve the possible scenarios that might occur in the future.

Interestingly, one or two key bits of info are missing which is skewing a majority of responders point of view. eg where exactly did it happen, 50m from the junction, 100m, 150m etc.? Was the reasoning behind the maneuver clear? etc.

CramCycle

Roadhawk wrote: »

Seriously? Its not illegal to beep at a cyclists. Where did you think that up? The Regulations also provide that a driver may use a horn only to warn other road users of oncoming danger, or to make them aware of the driver’s presence for safety reasons when reasonably necessary. A horn may not be used in a built-up area between 11 pm and 7 am unless there is a traffic emergency.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/environmental_protection/noise_regulations.html

The first point is mute as there were no oncoming dangers, the second is paradoxical as the only conceivable danger is the one the driver may have attempted to put the cyclist in.

So yes, what the driver done was not legal. It is technically borderline assault in the eyes of the law. It is on the other hand nothing the driver would have gotten in trouble for, it was just d1ckish and immature.

There could have been other reasons he beeped the horn, all of which were valid, but without more info, none I would believe.

Roadhawk

Easy on CramCycle, its Friday.
Your first response seems quite dramatic to suggest that the cyclist was assaulted by the motorist. If the cyclists feels assaulted they should report it to the Gardai immediately.

I understand the laps of information regarding the distances however this should not make a difference. The cyclist is in the right to hold the primary road position while moving to or through a junction. That is enough advise to offer the original poster and perhaps back it up with a fluffy link:

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowledge/skills/article/izn20130830-Effective-traffic-riding-part-1-0

Your second post really depends on perception, context and bias of the reader. Its not exactly illegal however i dont think it was the right thing for the motorist to do as it could have caused an accident.

droidus

Roadhawk wrote: »

Seriously? Its not illegal to beep at a cyclists. Where did you think that up? The Regulations also provide that a driver may use a horn only to warn other road users of oncoming danger, or to make them aware of the driver’s presence for safety reasons when reasonably necessary. A horn may not be used in a built-up area between 11 pm and 7 am unless there is a traffic emergency.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/environmental_protection/noise_regulations.html

Yes, it is illegal to use the horn to as a way to tell people to get out of your way. Not just illegal in fact - dangerous.

If you drive up behind a cyclist, beep at them to get their attention and then tell them to get off the road you're probably breaking the law.

Wishbone Ash

Roadhawk wrote: »

Seriously? Its not illegal to beep at a cyclists. Where did you think that up?...

I think you'd need to familiarise yourself with the Statute Instruments. It is not legal to sound a horn at any other road user just because one feels inconvenienced.

(2) A person shall not use, or permit to be used, any device provided on a vehicle for the purpose of giving audible warning except when such use is reasonably necessary on grounds of safety.

CramCycle

Roadhawk wrote: »

Easy on CramCycle, its Friday.
Your first response seems quite dramatic to suggest that the cyclist was assaulted by the motorist. If the cyclists feels assaulted they should report it to the Gardai immediately.

Assault is the technical term, it sounds more offensive than it is. If a randomer starts screaming at me in the street, even if I am not offended, hurt or otherwise interfered with, while it does not bother me and I walk on never to think about it again, it is technically assault. I have no other way to refer to it legally, casually I would refer to it as d1ckish behaviour, not assault. Others would call it assault though as they may become intimidated and fearful.

Your second post really depends on perception, context and bias of the reader. Its not exactly illegal however i dont think it was the right thing for the motorist to do as it could have caused an accident.

It is exactly illegal.

Roadhawk

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I think you'd need to familiarise yourself with the Statute Instruments. It is not legal to sound a horn at any other road user just because one feels inconvenienced.

Yes but what about section 86, Sub section (1):
Subject to the following sub-articles of this article, the driver of every vehicle which is required by article 28 of these Regulations to be fitted with an audible warning device shall, whenever necessary in a public place, give audible and sufficient warning of the approach or position of the vehicle by sounding the device.

Would this not suggest that the motorist could sound the horn to give audible and sufficient warning of the approach or position of the vehicle?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/si/190/made/en/print

CramCycle

Roadhawk wrote: »

Yes but what about section 86, Sub section (1):
Subject to the following sub-articles of this article, the driver of every vehicle which is required by article 28 of these Regulations to be fitted with an audible warning device shall, whenever necessary in a public place, give audible and sufficient warning of the approach or position of the vehicle by sounding the device.

Would this not suggest that the motorist could sound the horn to give audible and sufficient warning of the approach or position of the vehicle?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/si/190/made/en/print

It implies that either the cyclist was about to plough into the car without realising, or that the car was about to hit the cyclist, both of which are unlikely as the cyclist was in front and the car had slowed down to beep the horn.

Wishbone Ash

Roadhawk wrote: »

Yes but what about section 86, Sub section (1):
Subject to the following sub-articles of this article, the driver of every vehicle which is required by article 28 of these Regulations to be fitted with an audible warning device shall, whenever necessary in a public place, give audible and sufficient warning of the approach or position of the vehicle by sounding the device.

Would this not suggest that the motorist could sound the horn to give audible and sufficient warning of the approach or position of the vehicle?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/si/190/made/en/print

"Whenever necessary" is the key. On some very blind junctions you will see a sign to indicate that you must sound your horn and approach with caution.

Regarding approach - many large vehicle have a reversing warning device to give warning of their approach. A driver of an articulated truck or bus is positioned a long way from the rear of their vehicle making visibility difficult when reversing.

Regarding positioning - if you are parked in your vehicle and a truck begins reversing towards you, it is perfectly acceptable to sound your horn if you think it may collide with you.

LLMMLL

This thread has actually been very helpful. I didn't know I could cycle in the centre of the lane just as a car would. To clarify, it was pretty soon after getting onto Patrick St. (couldnt tell you what it is in metres) that I moved into the right-most lane. I then stayed fully in that lane to the left side of it. On the one hand I acknowledge its a bit of a way down to the junction but on the other its only about 10-20 seconds in actual time.

I didn't signal intent to turn right as I thought that would be for closer to when I was actually going to turn right, as in approaching the junction. I see now that it would have been helpful to signal intent earlier.

I still don't feel comfortable signalling right and moving into a lane with fast cars behind me. This was confirmed last night when I was cycling down Pearse st. out of the city centre, just after passing the bridge at the Grand Canal area. I looked behind me, there was one car very far back. I signalled that I was moving right, even though I felt the car was so far behind it didn't even matter, started to move to the right when next thing I hear a big whoosh behind me and the car is up my ass. I just don't feel safe in these circumstances.

seamus

Getting into the right-hand lane at the "top" of Patrick Street is probably a bit soon. It's a fast downhill road, but still long enough that cars will get annoyed and go to undertake, potentially causing issues. I would probably stick to the left-hand lane until you get to the park, and then start looking at moving into the right-hand lane.
Spotting gaps and taking them in moving traffic is part learned skill, part confidence. There's no shame in pulling into the left and stopping while you wait for a gap to appear, if nothing safe has presented itself.

mackeminexile

Either way, the cyclist is part of the traffic. He was turning right and was in the correct lane. Personally I would have taken the lane to ensure that I wasn't squeezed out.

Roadhawk

Top 50 things not too do when cycling:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6V_ZxNiSzU