AI with teaser bulls

dungfly

I find teaser bulls great but I am confused as to when to start and stop AI. For example a cow came into heat yesterday morning and was picked up by the teaser and AIed that morning. 24 hrs later the teaser is still chasing her. Should I AI her again or not?.

Another example. If a cow is just starting to come into heat according to the teaser then should I wait or should I AI asap?

Note: my AI man only AIs once per day, in the morning.

patsy_mccabe

AI at 8 hours from the start of standing heat. The cow has to be standing when mounted. I've run teasers for a few years and I've often seen the teaser follow a cow for 2 full days before the cow actually stood to be mounted.

J.O. Farmer

You should wait for her to be waiting and AI after that. Can you get a different AI man that does morning and evening.
Ideally if you see her waiting in the morning you AI that evening and if she's waiting in the evening AI next morning.
In your situation I would wait for her to be waiting and AI at the next time the AI man will be round either that day or the next.

bullnuts

dungfly wrote: »

I find teaser bulls great but I am confused as to when to start and stop AI. For example a cow came into heat yesterday morning and was picked up by the teaser and AIed that morning. 24 hrs later the teaser is still chasing her. Should I AI her again or not?.

Another example. If a cow is just starting to come into heat according to the teaser then should I wait or should I AI asap?

Note: my AI man only AIs once per day, in the morning.

I asked this of an elderly neighbour once ! How long do I wait after signs of her in heat ! His reply was "how long would a bull wait "

dungfly

bullnuts wrote: »

I asked this of an elderly neighbour once ! How long do I wait after signs of her in heat ! His reply was "how long would a bull wait "

A wise man me thinks.

tanko

AI carried out anytime 6 to 18 hours after the start of standing heat should be fine imo.

FeelTheBern

Always told to follow the am/pm rule. See her bulling in the am, AI in the pm and vice versa.

dungfly

FeelTheBern wrote: »

Always told to follow the am/pm rule. See her bulling in the am, AI in the pm and vice versa.

Does it make any sense to repeat AI if cow continues to show heat via teaser bull? My logic is she should go off heat quicker if she has been impregnated.

FeelTheBern

dungfly wrote: »

Does it make any sense to repeat AI if cow continues to show heat via teaser bull? My logic is she should go off heat quicker if she has been impregnated.

Not knocking your logic but impregnation won't make any difference. Cow comes into heat before she actually ovulates. You then want to give bit more time for egg to travel down towards the womb before she's inseminated. Frozen sperm not as active and don't survive as long as fresh so giving best chance by having egg nearby when they're released. Not as big a deal for natural service so time doesn't matter as much to the bull!!

So as other poster says watch for standing heat and then apply am/pm rule from that time. Think you should get AI man who comes morn and evening. Best of luck with it anyway!

dungfly

FeelTheBern wrote: »

Not knocking your logic but impregnation won't make any difference. Cow comes into heat before she actually ovulates. You then want to give bit more time for egg to travel down towards the womb before she's inseminated. Frozen sperm not as active and don't survive as long as fresh so giving best chance by having egg nearby when they're released. Not as big a deal for natural service so time doesn't matter as much to the bull!!

So as other poster says watch for standing heat and then apply am/pm rule from that time. Think you should get AI man who comes morn and evening. Best of luck with it anyway!

OK lets look at this standing heat advice in relation to a teaser bull. Let's say cow is well marked by teaser in the am. Do I AI immediately or do I hope she is still in heat the next am? The way I see it the teaser either marks a cow slightly or very well on a particular day.

If you were to recommend a change to my system should I
A continue as I already do.
B AI cows the following am
C do something different.

Sam Kade

bullnuts wrote: »

I asked this of an elderly neighbour once ! How long do I wait after signs of her in heat ! His reply was "how long would a bull wait "

But there is a difference where the bull deposits his load to where the AI man deposits the bull load. The AI man hits the spot

patsy_mccabe

There's a difference between the bull and the AI man alright. The bull doesn't give any receipts, answer his phone or take holidays. The AI man on the other hand, won't pin you to the wall, not if you pay your bills anyway.:cool:

RD10

dungfly wrote: »

I find teaser bulls great but I am confused as to when to start and stop AI. For example a cow came into heat yesterday morning and was picked up by the teaser and AIed that morning. 24 hrs later the teaser is still chasing her. Should I AI her again or not?.

Another example. If a cow is just starting to come into heat according to the teaser then should I wait or should I AI asap?

Note: my AI man only AIs once per day, in the morning.

If he was still chasing her 24hrs later she was probably only coming into heat that morning and not fully on. Was he trying to mount her that morning or the day after? Was she standing?
I would have ai'd her again the following day(and probably in eve)
If you ai too soon and their rising on eachother she could just lose it out again.
I'd a cow last year that was in heat say monday morning and wasnt quite fully standing about 5pm(she prob wud have been about 9-10pm that eve but i had to be in somewhere for a function and had to leave her til follwing eve to be ai'd. She was gone off heat by tuesday morning but chanced her anyway tuesday eve...ai man ended up coming about 7pm which wud have been in or around 24hrs of standing heat. she held that time for me. others might not if left that long.
I use the am/pm rule which works well

Sam Kade

There's no am pm rule with Dairygold since they contracted out ai, 12-12.30 pm and the cows have to work around that.

dungfly

Do you reckon the bull keeps to the am pm rule also. I am not convinced. I think the am pm rule is probably true for tail painting where a human bean is keeping tabs. But I think the teaser bull knows what's happening all the time. It's nature at work! Does anyone agree with me?

patsy_mccabe

Here's the science of getting the timing right.

tanko

If I wasn't getting 80% plus in calf to first insemination I'd be very disappointed.

dungfly

tanko wrote: »

If I wasn't getting 80% plus in calf to first insemination I'd be very disappointed.

I regularly hear people stating higher than 60% success rates with AI. However it is proven to Ben only 60% reliable. When you say 80% plus how do you know this. If you just release the stock bull and don't have a chin ball harness on him then he is picking up all the repeats unknown to you. If I AIedfor 3 weeks and released the stock bull and did no monitoring there after then I could claim 100%. Which is bull. How do you reckon it's 80% plus?

tanko

dungfly wrote: »

I regularly hear people stating higher than 60% success rates with AI. However it is proven to Ben only 60% reliable. When you say 80% plus how do you know this. If you just release the stock bull and don't have a chin ball harness on him then he is picking up all the repeats unknown to you. If I AIedfor 3 weeks and released the stock bull and did no monitoring there after then I could claim 100%. Which is bull. How do you reckon it's 80% plus?

I have sucklers, don't have a bull and do the Ai myself. 80-85% of inseminations would be successful on average. Of course I know I'm missing some heats but I'd all cows calved in 9 weeks this year and an average calving interval of 375 days since last year. I do cull problem animals fairly hard and replace them with heifers. If I was only getting 60% in calf to the first insemination I'd consider that a poor outcome.

patsy_mccabe

Do Tanko, you've your own tank.

tanko

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Do Tanko, you've your own tank.

Yeah, own tank here for about 15 years now, had some problems doing my own Ai for the first year or two but stuck at it and getting good enough results now.

dungfly

tanko wrote: »

I have sucklers, don't have a bull and do the Ai myself. 80-85% of inseminations would be successful on average. Of course I know I'm missing some heats but I'd all cows calved in 9 weeks this year and an average calving interval of 375 days since last year. I do cull problem animals fairly hard and replace them with heifers. If I was only getting 60% in calf to the first insemination I'd consider that a poor outcome.

Fair pay to you. Your figure stack up in that case.

dungfly

How long do you guys use AI on milking cows before releasing the bull?

patsy_mccabe

Quick one - up to what age would a young uncastrated bull be ok to use as a teaser?
I've an October 2018 (8 months old) bull here and he jumps up on cows bulling. Would he be ok to run as a teaser with pedigress for a few months.

Albert Johnson

It's depends on the strength and feeding of the calf more than age in my experience. However​ as a rough guide i reckon from 11-12 months on a well fed and developed calf should be capable of serving small numbers of cows. Therefore I'd reckon you'd be safe enough for another while but keep an eye on his progress.

A neighbor sold a nice white head CHx bull weanling this time last year, he'd be out of a big milky SIMx cow and a CH bull. The calf was about 420kg, 10 months old and taken straight from the cow. His owner would be very by the book as regarding registering births so his age was correct.

An old man from Monaghan bought him and I just happened to ask him afterwards whether he'd squeeze the calf or beef him as a bull. I was informed neither option was in the pipeline, he'd 20 cows at home and no help for A.I. so wanted​ a handy bull. This calf was only 10 months and getting lots of meal, I thought that 20 cows would kill him and there'd be no calves after him. Fast forward 12 months and I met the same man again, I enquired about the bull and he told me that everything held to him and he's back running with the cows again the year.

tanko

Good question, 8 months old might be pushing your luck, he'll be ten months old soon.
Hopefully you have tall cows!!!!
Use yearling bullocks for heat detection here, find them a great job
Just after checking the cattle, have 14 cows and heifers in one batch along with two bullocks, two cows and a heifer all standing at the same time, its like a rugby scrum moving around the field.

patsy_mccabe

Ya, might get him vasectomised and use him next year aswell. He's not exactly quiet though and I don't have another one that suits.

Mooooo

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Ya, might get him vasectomised and use him next year aswell. He's not exactly quiet though and I don't have another one that suits.

It may take a few weeks post vasectomy for viable semen to be flushed out of the system just to let you know

Hard Knocks

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Ya, might get him vasectomised and use him next year aswell. He's not exactly quiet though and I don't have another one that suits.

If he’s not quite, hold him only a short while

patsy_mccabe

Mooooo wrote: »

It may take a few weeks post vasectomy for viable semen to be flushed out of the system just to let you know

Ya, allow 6 weeks to flush tru. I've had 2 teasers here before.

grassroot1

It should be possible to buy a teaser that lads are finished with patsy.
I will be selling the lad here now anyway seen them selling on donedeal lately.
It could save you a lot of bother

charolais0153

Mooooo wrote: »

It may take a few weeks post vasectomy for viable semen to be flushed out of the system just to let you know

I think that’s for them to die off ,if he was blowing his load on full cows or freemartins etc he could be used sooner

Never wrestle with pigs

First year using one here, he's a fr a bit older than most use, he's around two years old. I'll never be without one again. Makes the Job much easier. Some cows/Heifers would be hot a good while before standing and some days a few on together. Brings them around a bit quicker too. He's very well mannered. Usually lads move them on or hang them up at that age but I'm half thinking of keeping him for next year he's been so good. Bad idea?

Mooooo

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

First year using one here, he's a fr a bit older than most use, he's around two years old. I'll never be without one again. Makes the Job much easier. Some cows/Heifers would be hot a good while before standing and some days a few on together. Brings them around a bit quicker too. He's very well mannered. Usually lads move them on or hang them up at that age but I'm half thinking of keeping him for next year he's been so good. Bad idea?

I've kept them till 3 like that they were quiet and the aa bull kept manners on them over the winter so they were never the top dog. It would be s case of keeping an eye on them and as with all bulls the first hint of wickedness up the ramp with them. The only other thing is as they get a bit older they may do less chasing and so do a bit less marking but that is bull dependant

stretch film

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

First year using one here, he's a fr a bit older than most use, he's around two years old. I'll never be without one again. Makes the Job much easier. Some cows/Heifers would be hot a good while before standing and some days a few on together. Brings them around a bit quicker too. He's very well mannered. Usually lads move them on or hang them up at that age but I'm half thinking of keeping him for next year he's been so good. Bad idea?

kill him .
if hes finished under 2 yrs he wont be too heavily penalised.

Diarmuid B

Bought a 16 month old limousin bullock last year, was told he was snipped but it looks like he’s still got one active tube(just from looking underneath). Anywho, this fella picks them out a day or two before the cows are in heat and he follows them everywhere for about two days. Would be absolutely lost without him trying to catch cows in heat.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

First year using one here, he's a fr a bit older than most use, he's around two years old. I'll never be without one again. Makes the Job much easier. Some cows/Heifers would be hot a good while before standing and some days a few on together. Brings them around a bit quicker too. He's very well mannered. Usually lads move them on or hang them up at that age but I'm half thinking of keeping him for next year he's been so good. Bad idea?

I've two old lads here, 6 and 7 years old. They've had their moments where I'd swear I'll be killing them myself but they know the run of things here and what's accepted or not and are generally well behaved.

I'll factory the eldest one this year as I don't care for the way he looks at me, iykwim, but I'd have no worries about keeping them longer if they don't get too big.

If he's quiet, I'd have no worries about keeping him as long as you remember he's still a bull and not a bullock.

Anto_Meath

Diarmuid B wrote: »

Bought a 16 month old limousin bullock last year, was told he was snipped but it looks like he’s still got one active tube(just from looking underneath). Anywho, this fella picks them out a day or two before the cows are in heat and he follows them everywhere for about two days. Would be absolutely lost without him trying to catch cows in heat.

Would you not be afraid he could still bull the cows, we had a 1 stone warrior a few years ago and he bulled a few cows on us.

Diarmuid B

Anto_Meath wrote: »

Would you not be afraid he could still bull the cows, we had a 1 stone warrior a few years ago and he bulled a few cows on us.

I would be delighted if he did. I said it to the fella we bought him off that it was a shame he was squeezed, he’s a cracking size and a lovely shape to him

greysides

dungfly wrote: »

Note: my AI man only AIs once per day, in the morning.

This is taken from the Receptal datasheet:

Improvement of pregnancy rate of cows - 2.5ml

The product should be injected at the time of or up to 8 hours before hand. This helps to ensure that ovulation occurs at the correct time after insemination.

patsy_mccabe

Anyone know how to stop this happening? Twice now he has pulled it off. Last time I tightened the lower strap in a notch and it seemed tight at that.

If I remenber right, the instructions said to tighten the upper kneck strap first and then the lower jaw one. Years ago I over tightened the straps and it cut into the bulls skin.

Buford T. Justice XIX

The back strap isn't tight enough, Patsy. If that's tight, even one more notch, the front belt won't be able to slide down over the bulls nose.

patsy_mccabe

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

The back strap isn't tight enough, Patsy. If that's tight, even one more notch, the front belt won't be able to slide down over the bulls nose.

Thanks. I'll try that.

dodo mommy

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Anyone know how to stop this happening? Twice now he has pulled it off. Last time I tightened the lower strap in a notch and it seemed tight at that.

If I remenber right, the instructions said to tighten the upper kneck strap first and then the lower jaw one. Years ago I over tightened the straps and it cut into the bulls skin.

Where did you get that contraption patsy, and would you recommend it? I'm go to use my first teaser this year and might put one of them yokes on him.

patsy_mccabe

dodo mommy wrote: »

Where did you get that contraption patsy, and would you recommend it? I'm go to use my first teaser this year and might put one of them yokes on him.

It's a Bull Chin-Ball Marker. I bought it on-line from Allivet.com in the states. It was €90 in 2014. Decided to use it this year. It's the 2nd one I got from them.

It works well when it stays on, but you have to be very carefull when handling the bull. A sure way to loose some fingers. If you look closely at the pic, you'll see I use cable ties on the strap to keep it in place. Don't ask me how, but they managed to open it in the past.

For sale in ireland too but very dear. Takes special paint too.

Harness
https://www.glanbiaconnect.com/shop/product/Kow-Ball-Chin-Harness/9056972

Paint;
https://www.glanbiaconnect.com/shop/product/Kow-Ball-Marker/B9056975

Buford T. Justice XIX

dodo mommy wrote: »

Where did you get that contraption patsy, and would you recommend it? I'm go to use my first teaser this year and might put one of them yokes on him.

Your local Agri store should have some or one of the online shops.

https://magentadirect.ie/?s=chin+ball

https://www.agridirect.ie/product/chin-ball-mating-harness-leather

Give a good look around, there's a big difference between different places for the same harness, the above are the first 2 I found.

Don't forget to get a bottle of the marker that goes into the reservoir as well.