Mondello might be forced to close

Bueno21

A EUROPEAN COURT of Justice ruling, which will be implemented in October, could kill motorsports in Ireland it has been warned.
Fine Gael MEP Brian Hayes says the ECJ’s Vnuk judgement, made back in 2014, will hurt motorsports and potentially close the iconic Mondello Park.
The judgement effectively means that by October 2016 all EU Member States are required to make unlimited third party motor insurance compulsory for all vehicles wherever they are used in the EU.
Currently, under Irish law compulsory motor insurance only covers the use of vehicles on a road or any other public place.
This, Hayes says, could have huge ramifications.
The Vnuk judgement will have massive implications, potentially requiring that compulsory motor insurance covers all private places, including private farmland, racetracks and private carparks.
“Many Irish racetrack representatives have said that this ruling will effectively shut down motorsport in Ireland as there is no market availability for such mandatory insurance.
“Their concerns are very real and the risk is that places like Mondello Park will be closed down if these new rules are forced upon EU Member States.”
Hayes said that the European Commission has a solution at its fingertips, should Commissioner for Financial Stability, Financial Services and Capital Markets Union Jonathan Hill choose to exercise it.
“The European Commission can make an amendment to this Directive before October to ensure that these consequences do not come to pass.”
Hayes says a proposal is due “very soon”.

Source is on the Journal can't post links as a new member!

CiniO

I read that and I must say I don't understand.

Insurers will be obliged to provide a cover everywhere (including racetracks) from October, not like now only on public roads and public places.

So why would this cause Mondello or other race tracks to close?

For me it looks like good news for Mondello.

porsche boy

Heard about this the other day. I wonder how all the other E.U. countries will deal with it. I'll watch Germany for their move, between Nurbergring and F1 tracks I can't see them letting this happen.

porsche boy

CiniO wrote:

So why would this cause Mondello or other race tracks to close?

Because legally everything on the track will require insurance. It will kill the motorsport industry as well as the significant income from club trackdays. Don't know anywhere that does track insurance these days.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

shietpilot

CiniO wrote: »

I read that and I must say I don't understand.

Insurers will be obliged to provide a cover everywhere (including racetracks) from October, not like now only on public roads and public places.

So why would this cause Mondello or other race tracks to close?

For me it looks like good news for Mondello.

The problem is with insuring modified cars. Look at the Irish Drifting Championship for example, 16 year old driver (Jack Shanahan) driving a 700 HP (pulling this number out of my arse) drift car. If he had to use a normal motor insurance policy he will not get insured on the car, because if he decides to take it for a spin down his road, causes a crash the insurance company would have to pay out.

CiniO

porsche boy wrote: »

Because legally everything on the track will require insurance. It will kill the motorsport industry as well as the significant income from club trackdays. Don't know anywhere that does track insurance these days.

OK, sorry.
I understood it wrong.
I thought that insurers will be obliged to provide cover everywhere, not only on public roads and public places.

It looks like its a car user/owner/driver who will be responsible for obtaining insurance for every use even outside public roads or public places, so f.e. race tracks.

This indeed might mess up situation in Ireland.

However Mondello would be least of the worries.

What about all the people who keep their cars parked in their gardens, drives, etc uninsured.

As we all know "using" includes parking, so looks like all those people will need to get insurance for their vehicles which they don't use...
Might get messy.

CiniO

porsche boy wrote: »

Heard about this the other day. I wonder how all the other E.U. countries will deal with it. I'll watch Germany for their move, between Nurbergring and F1 tracks I can't see them letting this happen.

But probably in Germany all cars used on race tracks are insured, so there won't be any problem there.

Cheensbo

What a huge load of unenforceable bolox.

TheDoc

Cheensbo wrote: »

What a huge load of unenforceable bolox.

Yeah this.

How exactly is a car to have resting up uninsured in your drive getting caught?

ants09

Has anyone actually read this judgement or just going by the crap that this FG td is saying ?

ants09

TheDoc wrote: »

Yeah this.

How exactly is a car to have resting up uninsured in your drive getting caught?

It's not, read the judgement, alot of scaremongering and crap talk about this.

What's it's basically saying is that insurance companies can't distinguish between public and private land where a mechanically propelled vehicle is operated.

Cheensbo

I'll repeat my sentiment about bolox,



Remember when they told us all lawnmowers and quads, field cars, stock bikes etc would have to be insured too?

ted1

Can they not just put a huge excess on it, problem sorted

http://www.xsdirect.ie/car-insurance/faqs

Also if the cars are not street legal, do they need insurance

Sh1tbag OToole

Would the EU ever just f*ck off. Always trying to put a damper on everyone's fun

Red Kev

Coming soon......

The Independent People's Republic of Mondello.

CJhaughey

I remember when this came out and the insurers were trying to sell ride-on lawnmower insurance!
I think thats what the original ruling was about IIRC?

TrailerBob

As it stands, even the best comprehensive policy will not cover you on a racetrack, and many German policies specifically exclude the Nurburgring (A public toll road in the eyes of the law). Don't see anything changing here. Racetracks currently have an 'own risk' approach.

TrailerBob

TrailerBob wrote: »

As it stands, even the best comprehensive policy will not cover you on a racetrack, and many German policies specifically exclude the Nurburgring (A public toll road in the eyes of the law). Don't see anything changing here. Racetracks currently have an 'own risk' approach.

If it's considered a public toll road then how can insurance exclude it?

"Thank you for taking out fully comp insurance with us.. but don't go trying to claim if you're driving in Letterkenny! We don't cover Letterkenny!"

afatbollix

They actually say that in the terms!

Also Vnak is a wanker.

What will he tell his grandkids 'I'm the wanker who killed the motorsport scene in europe'

Thanks gramps.

Voodoomelon

So say a car is in a wifes name. The car is taxed and NCT'd, but not insured.

However it is currently legal for that woman's husband to drive it under his own policy third party extension. Under new legislation, this would no longer be possible?

TrailerBob

Deleted User wrote: »

If it's considered a public toll road then how can insurance exclude it?

"Thank you for taking out fully comp insurance with us.. but don't go trying to claim if you're driving in Letterkenny! We don't cover Letterkenny!"

They exclude it because it's a race track, albeit open to the public a few days a month, and any Joe soap can bring their car on it, and inevitably some of them crash. Insurance companies aren't stupid. It falls under the 'racing, pace-setting or speed testing' exclusion in most. It's specific in Germany because it's so easy to run up a 6 figure claim

Red Kev

Deleted User wrote: »

If it's considered a public toll road then how can insurance exclude it?

"Thank you for taking out fully comp insurance with us.. but don't go trying to claim if you're driving in Letterkenny! We don't cover Letterkenny!"

If you're travelling in excess of 130 km/h on an unlimited Autobahn the insurance company don't have to pay out either, it's quite common for them to pay only a percentage or nothing at all.

They always pay out to non involved parties on the basis of 3rd party, but they can (and do) come after you for it if they deem you responsible.

About 20 years ago, Bernd Pischetsrieder, thet former CEO of BMW and VW wrote off* his McLaren F1 the day after he got it, he was deemed to be doing over the speed limit and the insurance company refused to pay out. There were two others in the car slightly injured, so it's something they practise rather than preach.

*It was said at the time it was a total write off, not sure if it was ever put back together again.

Del2005

Voodoomelon wrote: »

So say a car is in a wifes name. The car is taxed and NCT'd, but not insured.

However it is currently legal for that woman's husband to drive it under his own policy third party extension. Under new legislation, this would no longer be possible?

Spouse's jointly own their vehicles, the husband is driving uninsured.

neris

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Would the EU ever just f*ck off. Always trying to put a damper on everyone's fun

isnt that what the pro brexit supporters in the uk are saying

Sh1tbag OToole

neris wrote: »

isnt that what the pro brexit supporters in the uk are saying

No they just want to sell what's left of ""Great"" Britain to China in return for another 10 years of sitting on their holes not manufacturing any goods, doing cushy office jobs and no real work while all the goods they require come from China

They don't realise it's only 10 years though. They think they can continue to export nothing but financial services perpetually while the Chinese continue to bring finite natural resources to their front door for half nothing

recyclebin

Mondello have issued a statement so they are obviously worried about this and whats in the papers is not all bull:

Mondello Park statement re European Court of Justice 'Vnuk' insurance ruling
We at Mondello Park have been aware of the Vnuk Insurance ruling from the European Court of Justice for a number of months and the potential unintended impact it could have on our own business and the Motorsport category in Ireland. To that end we have been working with our colleagues in the UK and across Europe to gain support for an amendment to the proposed Motor Insurance Directive.
The Vunk judgement from the European Court of Justice in September 2014 reinterprets the EU Motor Insurance Directive (2009/103/EC)2 and requires all 28 EU member states to make unlimited third party motor insurance compulsory for all vehicles wherever they are used.
Prior to this ruling, the scope of most EU mandatory motor insurance referred to use being on a ‘public place or road’, and had a clearly defined extent of ‘vehicles’ and their ‘use’.
This ruling unless amended, will have detrimental effects across all EU motorsport businesses as the insurance industry have stated that “participant” to “participant” unlimited liability cover is uninsurable and won’t be available. Motorsport in the EU currently provides over 100,000 jobs and generates €25 billion in revenue. In an Irish context we have over 4,500 license holders and hold over 300 licensed events annually across all forms of motorsport on both two and four wheels.
The European Commission recognises the need for the amendment to the Insurance Directive to address this issue, and is shortly to produce a road-map which clearly outlines their plan to approve and implement this amendment which will exempt all motorsport in the EU. For this to take place the European Commission must have majority support from all 28 EU national governments, and then obtain majority support from 751 MEPs in the EU Parliament to confirm the resulting legislation.
We have met with Brian Hayes MEP, Eoghan Murphy TD and Alex Sinclair CEO of Motorsport Ireland to discuss the issue and to garner support at national and EU level. Brian Hayes and Eoghan Murphy fully understand the potential economic and social implications of this “Motor Insurance Directive” to both the Irish motorsport category and other sectors of industry if it is not amended. To this end, both Brian Hayes and Eoghan Murphy are working with the relevant authorities in Ireland and Europe to secure the appropriate amendment prior to the new EU insurance directive being enacted in October 2016.
Roddy Greene
General Manager
Mondello Park Ltd

Liam McPoyle

The ruling involves a case where a guy in Lithuania (iirc) was knocked off a ladder by someone driving a tractor on private land.

The insurer declined the claim as it was not a public place.

The courts ruled that insurance should cover EVERYWHERE.

I mentioned this case in here a number of months ago when talking about increases in insurance premiums. Insurers here have been aware of the potential issues since last year and have been taking steps to protect themselves.

Or they are just screwing the drivers in Ireland with no lube for the craic, whichever narrative suits your own particular train of thought.

GM228

Del2005 wrote: »

Spouse's jointly own their vehicles, the husband is driving uninsured.

Actually that's incorrect, spouses don't jointly own property unless actually registered in both names-it's a common misunderstanding.

Spouses have an "interest" in each other's property, not ownership, so depending on how a policy is worded then the spouse may be covered.

Take Liberty's policy wording for example:-

the vehicle is not owned by you or your employer or hired to you or them under a hire-purchase or lease agreement;

Nothing about insurable interest, just ownership-if they refused to insure then there is a genuine case against them as legally you don't own your spouses car.

Caliden

Since it not only affects Ireland it should get more attention.

I'm sure there are several millionaires across the continent who like racing their car on racetracks. Should those racetracks close, I don't see them staying quiet.

Cuddlesworth

TrailerBob wrote: »

They exclude it because it's a race track, albeit open to the public a few days a month, and any Joe soap can bring their car on it, and inevitably some of them crash. Insurance companies aren't stupid. It falls under the 'racing, pace-setting or speed testing' exclusion in most. It's specific in Germany because it's so easy to run up a 6 figure claim

The law is worded in a way that if you hit another car on the race track, the insurance company is liable for the damages to their car. They can of course try to recuperate the funds off of you afterwards.

CJhaughey

Caliden wrote: »

Since it not only affects Ireland it should get more attention.

I'm sure there are several millionaires across the continent who like racing their car on racetracks. Should those racetracks close, I don't see them staying quiet.

Its not just millionaires, its the UK motorsports industry which is an order of magnitude larger.
Maybe this will also affect their Brexit vote ?:D