Fire Safety

bajer101

I live on the third (top) floor of an apartment block that was built during the boom years. If a fire broke out I don't see any way that I could me or my family out of the building safely. There is a balcony surrounding most of the apartment, but there isn't anywhere that you could even drop down to.

Who can I contact about this to investigate?

Gumbo

bajer101 wrote: »

I live on the third (top) floor of an apartment block that was built during the boom years. If a fire broke out I don't see any way that I could me or my family out of the building safely. There is a balcony surrounding most of the apartment, but there isn't anywhere that you could even drop down to.

Who can I contact about this to investigate?

If it was built during the boom (I assume you mean 10 years ago or so) then the building has an active fire safety certificate.

Apartments are not designed to provide escape out through windows or balconies like a normal house would be. In an apartment you rely on the more advanced fire alarm, position of fire doors and compartments to stop fire spreading through out the building.

What would you like imbestigated?
3rd floor is nothing, think of apartments on the 8th, 9th or higher floors.

bajer101

What I would like investigated is, if we would be safe if a fire broke out, and how would we escape. I live close to Priory Hall, and I am not sure what Priory Hall was lacking and what makes my building any safer. If a fire broke out here, even in my own apartment, I don't see how I could get out. The only egress is a common stairwell which has blown bulbs. If a fire broke out in the building I'd be more inclined to head to the balcony that a dark, smoke filled stairway.

Priory Hall originally got a safety cert until someone, presumably raised a question. I'm just asking the same question.

MarkAnthony

Get yourself something like this:

http://www.safelincs.ie/easyscape-fire-escape-ladders/

Priory Hall was an issue with the construction not that fact that you ain't getting out of a third story apartment if there's a fire.

Gumbo

bajer101 wrote: »

What I would like investigated is, if we would be safe if a fire broke out, and how would we escape. I live close to Priory Hall, and I am not sure what Priory Hall was lacking and what makes my building any safer. If a fire broke out here, even in my own apartment, I don't see how I could get out. The only egress is a common stairwell which has blown bulbs. If a fire broke out in the building I'd be more inclined to head to the balcony that a dark, smoke filled stairway.

Priory Hall originally got a safety cert until someone, presumably raised a question. I'm just asking the same question.

You need to get onto the management company about the blown bulbs etc as that's a maintenance issue. In the case of fire, the lights may not provide any help in anyway as smoke starts at the top and fills the room from the ceiling down.

Do you own or rent the property?
How long are you in the property?

Your personal evacuation plan is hindered here, and you need to train yourself not to go to the balcony as its the last place I would go to in the case of fire.

Your apartment should have a smoke detector in the internal hall, that is linked to the fire alarm in the rest of the building. The doors will most likely be 30 minute or 60 minute fore doors and the compartments, if constructed properly should hold back the fire for a minimum of 1 hour but depending on the method of construction, longer.

Priory hall got a FSC but it was then in turn not constructed properly by a greedy developer and then in turn signed off by a private sector architect/engineer that was probably been held hostage for his fees (not saying that's right, he should have got as much slack as the developer did from the media).

The thing is, if you want complete peace of mind, you have to carry out opening up works, and are you willing to pay for that?

bajer101

bajer101 wrote: »

What I would like investigated is, if we would be safe if a fire broke out, and how would we escape..

You escape by the stairs like every other apartment in the county, what do you want a helicoptor on stand by on the roof?

bajer101

kceire wrote: »

You need to get onto the management company about the blown bulbs etc as that's a maintenance issue. In the case of fire, the lights may not provide any help in anyway as smoke starts at the top and fills the room from the ceiling down.

Do you own or rent the property?
How long are you in the property?

Your personal evacuation plan is hindered here, and you need to train yourself not to go to the balcony as its the last place I would go to in the case of fire.

Your apartment should have a smoke detector in the internal hall, that is linked to the fire alarm in the rest of the building. The doors will most likely be 30 minute or 60 minute fore doors and the compartments, if constructed properly should hold back the fire for a minimum of 1 hour but depending on the method of construction, longer.

Priory hall got a FSC but it was then in turn not constructed properly by a greedy developer and then in turn signed off by a private sector architect/engineer that was probably been held hostage for his fees (not saying that's right, he should have got as much slack as the developer did from the media).

The thing is, if you want complete peace of mind, you have to carry out opening up works, and are you willing to pay for that?

I rent, but I happen to know the builder. He is actually one of the better ones and I very much doubt that he would have skimped. He's a major developer and his builds are of a very high standard.

That's a good point you make about not heading out to the balcony. Standing on a third floor balcony while waiting for the fire brigade. You'd be fúcked. So I would have to hit the common stairwell, which is not well lighted at the moment, guiding my kids.

Aminah Tasty Minibike wrote: »

You escape by the stairs like every other apartment in the county, what do you want a helicoptor on stand by on the roof?

Wow! Just wow. When the people in Priory Hall asked the same question was your response the same? Tell me what your fire escape plan is. I'll bet that it doesn't involve having to make your way down from the third floor.

I just want to know what would happen if my building went on fire. If I find myself in a smoke filled building and I have to gather up my kids and try to escape, what do I do? I'm on the third floor with no way out except via the common stairwell. What do I do if that stairwell is full of smoke or impassible?

newacc2015

bajer101 wrote: »

I rent, but I happen to know the builder. He is actually one of the better ones and I very much doubt that he would have skimped. He's a major developer and his builds are of a very high standard.

That's a good point you make about not heading out to the balcony. Standing on a third floor balcony while waiting for the fire brigade. You'd be fúcked. So I would have to hit the common stairwell, which is not well lighted at the moment, guiding my kids.

I just want to know what would happen if my building went on fire. If I find myself in a smoke filled building and I have to gather up my kids and try to escape, what do I do? I'm on the third floor with no way out except via the common stairwell. What do I do if that stairwell is full of smoke or impassible?

I dont think you are quite understanding what kceire has been saying. If there was a fire in another apartment. The fire alarm will go off and the fire brigade will be alerted. The fire will be restricted as the fire doors are designed to last at least 30 mins. A fire can't get through a plaster or a block wall. Most apartment blocks ( all large buildings) have a vent that clears smoke during a fire and allows the flammable gases to escape. Stairs are made of cement and will be surrounded by double fire doors usually. A fire in an apartment is kept in the apartment with all the safety features.

The lighting which you don't think is working, is emergency lighting. It only comes on in the event of a blackout or a fire.

If you still don't feel safe in apartment blocks which has a ton of safety features. Maybe you should consider a house? But the fact is a lot of houses don't have walls in the attic to stop fires spreading between units ( unlike an apartment).

MarkAnthony

bajer101 wrote: »

I just want to know what would happen if my building went on fire. If I find myself in a smoke filled building and I have to gather up my kids and try to escape, what do I do? I'm on the third floor with no way out except via the common stairwell. What do I do if that stairwell is full of smoke or impassible?

You hope you get rescued before you're all dead. Not a nice thought but one I struggle to see what is difficult to grasp.

If you're that worried about it it's time to move.

bajer101

Mr.S wrote: »

I also live on the third floor, how else would you escape during a fire rather then the main stairway?

Emergency ladders? I'd certainly sleep sounder at night if there were some drop down ladders from the balconies. Some of the responses here seem think that I am crazy for even raising the possibility that I may be living in a building that is not 100% safe. We have already had one major case of a series of apartment blocks that are not fire safe.

I don't know if the building I live in is safe. The same people who passed Priory Hall as safe passed this building as safe.

newacc2015 wrote: »

I dont think you are quite understanding what kceire has been saying. If there was a fire in another apartment. The fire alarm will go off and the fire brigade will be alerted. The fire will be restricted as the fire doors are designed to last at least 30 mins. A fire can't get through a plaster or a block wall. Most apartment blocks ( all large buildings) have a vent that clears smoke during a fire and allows the flammable gases to escape. Stairs are made of cement and will be surrounded by double fire doors usually. A fire in an apartment is kept in the apartment with all the safety features.

The lighting which you don't think is working, is emergency lighting. It only comes on in the event of a blackout or a fire.

If you still don't feel safe in apartment blocks which has a ton of safety features. Maybe you should consider a house? But the fact is a lot of houses don't have walls in the attic to stop fires spreading between units ( unlike an apartment).

Again, all of these supposed safety features were in place when Priory Hall got passed. My building was built around the same time as Priory Hall. The same people signed off on both. Why is my building safer than Priory Hall?

MarkAnthony

OP - what are you not grasping about the Priory Hall situation? It wasn't features such as fire escapes it's was the construction of the building. As someone has pointed out you'd need to get destructive tests done.

You need to be very careful how you proceed. You could, if you say the wrong thing to the wrong person, potentially wind up with legal issues to deal with. The general rule of thumb is that if a building has been signed off it's safe. Just because it was built about the same time as another building doesn't mean there is an issue.

Drop down ladders etc. are not part of the regs. If you want something like that buy it and install it - it'll have to be discrete and not cause damage. Otherwise move to somewhere on a lower floor.

How do you know that the building is completely safe and the person under you hasn't taken off all the door closers, left the gas on and leaves candles lit? There's only so much worrying you can do.

Grolschevik

Rope ladder if it's keeping you up at night with genuine concerns.

bajer101

MarkAnthony wrote: »

OP - what are you not grasping about the Priory Hall situation? It wasn't features such as fire escapes it's was the construction of the building. As someone has pointed out you'd need to get destructive tests done.

You need to be very careful how you proceed. You could, if you say the wrong thing to the wrong person, potentially wind up with legal issues to deal with. The general rule of thumb is that if a building has been signed off it's safe. Just because it was built about the same time as another building doesn't mean there is an issue.

Drop down ladders etc. are not part of the regs. If you want something like that buy it and install it - it'll have to be discrete and not cause damage. Otherwise move to somewhere on a lower floor.

How do you know that the building is completely safe and the person under you hasn't taken off all the door closers, left the gas on and leaves candles lit? There's only so much worrying you can do.

What I am not grasping about the Priory Hall situation is how was Priory Hall not safe and why are all the other other apartments that were built at the time deemed safe? Why was Priory Hall "caught"? Someone passed Priory Hall as safe at the time. Whatever is was that Priory Hall failed on, have all the other buildings been checked for this? I have driven by it every day for the last three years and it is obviously not a minor issue. They are practically rebuilding the whole complex. Was Priory Hall just a once off or are there lots more like it but no one has asked for them to be investigated? I don't know, that is why I am asking.

athtrasna

bajer101 wrote: »

What I am not grasping about the Priory Hall situation is how was Priory Hall not safe and why are all the other other apartments that were built at the time deemed safe? Why was Priory Hall "caught"? Someone passed Priory Hall as safe at the time. Whatever is was that Priory Hall failed on, have all the other buildings been checked for this? I have driven by it every day for the last three years and it is obviously not a minor issue. They are practically rebuilding the whole complex. Was Priory Hall just a once off or are there lots more like it but no one has asked for them to be investigated? I don't know, that is why I am asking.

You've already said you know the builder and he's one of the good ones. Stop panicking and read the fire safety notices in the common area. Or move into a bungalow.

Gumbo

bajer101 wrote: »

What I am not grasping about the Priory Hall situation is how was Priory Hall not safe and why are all the other other apartments that were built at the time deemed safe? Why was Priory Hall "caught"? Someone passed Priory Hall as safe at the time. Whatever is was that Priory Hall failed on, have all the other buildings been checked for this? I have driven by it every day for the last three years and it is obviously not a minor issue. They are practically rebuilding the whole complex. Was Priory Hall just a once off or are there lots more like it but no one has asked for them to be investigated? I don't know, that is why I am asking.

The problem with priory hall was that the fixings in the cavities were not fire resistant. These fixings were holding up the brick facade. If a fire got into the cavity, these fixings could fail and the whole front facade could come crashing down to the street below potentially on top of fire crews or the public.

OP, you need to understand how fire safety works in apartment blocks, it's based on passive and active protection and relies on both of these features been in a working condition. Some involve the fabric of the building, others involve detection and warning systems.

If a fire happens you will know about it long before it becomes a problem to the building and you escape through the stairs. The stairs will have an AOV (automatics opening vent) at the top which means that if smoke does get into the stairwell it's released at roof level and thus not allowing the stairwell fill up with smoke.

To be frank, you should like you have undue worry issues, and if they effect you that strongly, I would suggest renting a house, house share or similar as these safety measures are in every apartment block in ireland.

You say the building was signed off by the same people as priory hall, how do you know this? What architect/engineer was it? I'll assume it wasn't the same builder (mc feely) as you seem to know the builder so I'll only assume you know the person that signed off on it.

The_Conductor

If you're so terrified about the possibility that you're living in a development akin to Priory Hall- then move- it really is as simple as that.

The issue with Priory Hall- is during the boom- developers self-certified that they were compliant with safety and other regulations- and that their developments met all standards.

Councils conducted spot checks on roughly 12% of certificates- there was a working assumption that criminals were *not* fraudulently issuing invalid certificates.

Unfortunately- as in Priory Hall- this was not always the case.

Priory Hall was found out fairly quickly (cracks were apparent in walls etc- before the were even occupied)- but the sh*t hit the fan when the local Authority moved its own tenants out of the 26 apartments it owned- in early 2009 (scarcely 2 years after the apartments were sold).

The developer claimed penury as a reason for his inability to rectify the issues- and somehow- the residents were afforded accommodation by the local authority (not entirely sure how or why- but the local authority paid- they went to court to try and argue they weren't liable- you can google that if you're so inclined).

Priory Hall was exceptional- and recognised as such- it was not just another example of what happened during the boom time construction- it was wholly exceptional- there may have been corners cut in some other developments- but none as cynically as in Priory Hall.

If you are genuinely concerned about your property- you are entitled, as an owner- to a copy of the safety certificate issued to the building- which is lodged with the Management Company. Simply request a copy from the Company Secretary- they're normally quite good at responding to requests such as this (they are entitled to an administrative charge- but its tax deductible).

I'm not entirely sure why you're so worried all of a sudden- it seems irrational to be completely honest.........

Gumbo

And just to clarify the Conductors post above, developers still self certify projects now. That hasn't changed. The only thing that has changed is the Building Control Regulations around the administration of the commencement notice and appointments of Assogned Certifiers by the developer.

DCC currently inspect about 40% of all Commencement Notices lodged.