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Checking who owns a property

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  • 20-05-2016 9:30am
    #1
    Hayden Pennyfeather
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭


    I was shown an apartment yesterday by the landlord/owner of the place. After viewing the landlord said I could secure the place with a €100 deposit - and he would take down the ad.

    Is there anyway of checking who owns the apartment - a property register of some sort?

    I know it's not a massive sum but just to be safe. The guy seems genuine and was accommodating with regard to move in dates and full deposit payment etc. just a couple of things are making me a small bit suspicious. There was no electricity in the place on viewing - it's a prepay system with a card which you top up - he showed me the boiler and how it worked - said he just needed to go top up. Also he asked for the €100 in cash rather than into his bank, as he says he is overdrawn. He did say he will provide a written receipt and email me one.


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    #2
    bren2002
    Registered Users Posts: 1,198 ✭✭✭bren2002


    Nope. Its impossible to find out who owns a property.


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    #3
    Hayden Pennyfeather
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭Hayden Pennyfeather


    bren2002 wrote: »
    Nope. Its impossible to find out who owns a property.

    Thanks. Thought as much but wanted to be sure.


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    #4
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,474 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    The top up system runs up arrears for every day it has no credit. So if it's been empty for 10 days and you too up by €10 you might find that you will actually only have €4 in credit due to the standing charge arrears.

    Get this sorted beforehand.
    Also I would do the deposit by EFT if possible to have a follow up.


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    #5
    PhoenixParker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    I've been known to ask a landlord to see his passport/driving licence and snap a picture of it on my phone before signing lease documents or handing over cash/transferring money. It's not much but at least you have some record of his identity if anything goes wrong.

    I would get a written receipt which details what the money is for and an emailed receipt in this case too.

    but . . . I will say it seems a bit peculiar to be asking for such a low amount to secure the place and a cash deposit.


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    #6
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    PhoenixParker wrote: »
    I've been known to ask a landlord to see his passport/driving licence and snap a picture of it on my phone before signing lease documents or handing over cash/transferring money. It's not much but at least you have some record of his identity if anything goes wrong.

    I would get a written receipt which details what the money is for and an emailed receipt in this case too.

    but . . . I will say it seems a bit peculiar to be asking for such a low amount to secure the place and a cash deposit.

    If I was a LL, I would say no to a tenant taking a picture of an ID. There is a risk of fraud from it. If your LL gives you a bank account for the ROI. If there is an issue, it will be possible to trace them with the account details

    It is not the uncommon at all for a small deposit temporarily. I imagine the LL will look for the full months rent and full deposit when OP moves in


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    #7
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    You should be able to check the ownership details at the prai.


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    #8
    Hayden Pennyfeather
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭Hayden Pennyfeather


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    You should be able to check the ownership details at the prai.

    Thanks - I was able to purchase the folio - a pdf land registry doc - for the apartment on landdirect.ie

    There ownership section shows the person as the owner. However there was a section on Burdens and Notices of Burdens.

    "A judgment mortgage in respect of a judgment obtained by [Bank name] against [Owner] on [Date] in the Circuit Court Record Number [] in a cause/matter/action of [Bank name] v [Owner] against the interest of [Owner] in the property".

    Anyone able to elaborate on this?


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    #9
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    would that mean that the bank now owns the property?


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    #10
    Hayden Pennyfeather
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭Hayden Pennyfeather


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    would that mean that the bank now owns the property?

    That's what i'd like to know - and if so what are the implications for a tenant?


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    #11
    Addle
    Registered Users Posts: 4,812 ✭✭✭Addle


    The owner owns the property.
    The burdens are really none of your business.


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    #12
    Hayden Pennyfeather
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭Hayden Pennyfeather


    Addle wrote: »
    The owner owns the property.
    The burdens are really none of your business.

    I agree they're none of my business, but they won't be long becoming my business if the owner isn't making payments and there's a knock knock on the door from the bank.


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    #13
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    bigkocman wrote: »
    Thanks - I was able to purchase the folio - a pdf land registry doc - for the apartment on landdirect.ie

    There ownership section shows the person as the owner. However there was a section on Burdens and Notices of Burdens.

    "A judgment mortgage in respect of a judgment obtained by [Bank name] against [Owner] on [Date] in the Circuit Court Record Number [] in a cause/matter/action of [Bank name] v [Owner] against the interest of [Owner] in the property".

    Anyone able to elaborate on this?

    When is the judgement from?


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    #14
    moc moc a moc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭moc moc a moc


    bigkocman wrote: »
    Also he asked for the €100 in cash rather than into his bank, as he says he is overdrawn

    This makes no sense. Surely if he's overdrawn he would want money in the bank as soon as possible to get out of the red? Also, how much trust could you place in him as a landlord if he's careless enough to let his his bank account get overdrawn? And doesn't even bother putting a fiver into the electricity supply to show the property?

    Red flags all round.


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    #15
    Hayden Pennyfeather
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭Hayden Pennyfeather


    newacc2015 wrote: »
    When is the judgement from?

    It's from about 2 years ago. After seeking some advice I was told that once you sign a lease, whether the property is owned by the current owner or the bank, your tenancy is secure.
    moc moc a moc wrote: »
    This makes no sense. Surely if he's overdrawn he would want money in the bank as soon as possible to get out of the red? Also, how much trust could you place in him as a landlord if he's careless enough to let his his bank account get overdrawn? And doesn't even bother putting a fiver into the electricity supply to show the property?

    Red flags all round.

    Yes there are plenty of red flags, but given it's a nice place in a good area and ticks a lot of boxes in what we're looking for, I paid the holding deposit. I will view the place again in a few weeks before paying a full deposit. I've agreed with the owner a few things that need to be done so i'll be able to assess based on progress on these also.

    Thanks for all input.


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    #16
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,533 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    newacc2015 wrote: »
    If I was a LL, I would say no to a tenant taking a picture of an ID. There is a risk of fraud from it.

    So then, you also think the LandLord should not get a copy if the tenant ID?


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    #17
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    So then, you also think the LandLord should not get a copy if the tenant ID?

    I am looking at it objectively. The fact is there are more tenants being brought to the PRTB for damage, non payment of rent etc than tenants bringing LL's to the PRTB. It is easy to trace a LL using a bank account number they have used for decades. It is not easy to trace someone who has just moved to Ireland, without a PPS etc. How is a LL supposed to get the Gardai to look for that person if they stripped the place bare of processions, if they dont have a solid copy of their ID?

    Give me an example of why you would need a copy of your middle aged Irish LL's driver license if you pay rent directly to a bank account with the LL's name on the account and it is an Irish Bank. They also have a copy of a lease with the LLs address on it

    Say a non-national moves here with no PPS, no connection to Ireland, no Irish bank account, etc. There is no way to tell if they are, who they say they are. You don't even have a photo of them. You would be content with them moving into your property with copy of their ID? If you are, IMO it is rather foolish


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    #18
    PhoenixParker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    newacc2015 wrote: »
    I am looking at it objectively. The fact is there are more tenants being brought to the PRTB for damage, non payment of rent etc than tenants bringing LL's to the PRTB. It is easy to trace a LL using a bank account number they have used for decades. It is not easy to trace someone who has just moved to Ireland, without a PPS etc. How is a LL supposed to get the Gardai to look for that person if they stripped the place bare of processions, if they dont have a solid copy of their ID?

    Give me an example of why you would need a copy of your middle aged Irish LL's driver license if you pay rent directly to a bank account with the LL's name on the account and it is an Irish Bank. They also have a copy of a lease with the LLs address on it

    Say a non-national moves here with no PPS, no connection to Ireland, no Irish bank account, etc. There is no way to tell if they are, who they say they are. You don't even have a photo of them. You would be content with them moving into your property with copy of their ID? If you are, IMO it is rather foolish

    Because at the point I'm talking about I'd just handed a cheque for a large sum of money to the "landlord" and signed a lease with him. While he'd given me bank details I had yet to use them and the only proof I had that he was entitled the rent me the place was the fact that he had a key and acted like he did. The landlord in question had asked for references, evidence of employment and proof of my own ID. It's perfectly normal to ask for something simple like an ID in return.

    Renting is a trust based operation. Why on earth would a landlord trust me with thousands of euros worth of his property and not trust me with a photo of him and some evidence of his name and address?

    From my point of view as a tenant, going to the Gards saying: I transferred this amount of money to someone I believe was called X, who gave me bank account Y and now there's someone else living in my apartment doesn't give them much to track down the landlord or later convict him. By the time that gets to a court case the only ID will be vague remembrance of what he looked like.

    Asking to see an official ID and taking a copy isn't much protection from a scam, but it's something concrete I could have handed to the Gards if it had all gone belly up when I came to move in a week later. It didn't and I lived there happily for a year, but it's sensible to take basic precautions.


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    #19
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    PhoenixParker wrote: »
    Because at the point I'm talking about I'd just handed a cheque for a large sum of money to the "landlord" and signed a lease with him. While he'd given me bank details I had yet to use them and the only proof I had that he was entitled the rent me the place was the fact that he had a key and acted like he did. The landlord in question had asked for references, evidence of employment and proof of my own ID. It's perfectly normal to ask for something simple like an ID in return.

    Renting is a trust based operation. Why on earth would a landlord trust me with thousands of euros worth of his property and not trust me with a photo of him and some evidence of his name and address?

    From my point of view as a tenant, going to the Gards saying: I transferred this amount of money to someone I believe was called X, who gave me bank account Y and now there's someone else living in my apartment doesn't give them much to track down the landlord or later convict him. By the time that gets to a court case the only ID will be vague remembrance of what he looked like.

    Asking to see an official ID and taking a copy isn't much protection from a scam, but it's something concrete I could have handed to the Gards if it had all gone belly up when I came to move in a week later. It didn't and I lived there happily for a year, but it's sensible to take basic precautions.

    What happens to a cheque in 2016? It has to lodged into a bank account and it takes several days for it to clear. If there was fraud on the part of the LL. The Bank would know the cheque was cashed to John Smith in AIB Grafton St.

    You dont seem to realise you can actually track someone using a bank account. You dont think it would be easy for the Gardai to track John Smith with the IBAN details you used to lodge money into his account with? When someone opened that account, they would have had to have given PPS no, ID's etc. The bank keeps it on file for money laundering/tax evasion purposes. It would take the Gardai a phone call to a bank to find out whose account you just lodge into. Electronic money leaves a trace, which is easy to follow. What do you happens to it?


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