Photography - Copyright - Third Party Usage

Dinarius

I'm a professional photographer.

I recently did a shoot of the interior of a building to illustrate, principally, the flooring in an entrance hallway.

I took about 20 images in all.

The flooring had been created to an artist's design/specification.

All parties - the owners of the building and the artist were very happy with the images.

I charged for my time to take the images and the processing of the files.

While all possible usage of the images was not specified, I was allowing for usage by the owners of the building, the artist and the artist's gallery. Web, print, press etc.

I have now been told that the company that made the floor would like to use the images for promotional purposes. Web, press, advertising, etc.

While I don't want to lose any of the clients I already have - the owners of the building, the artist, the artist's gallery - that a third party should have use of the images, giving them free illustrations for their advertising etc. ticks me off, to put it mildly - and that's being polite about it.

As far as I am concerned, a client buys the use of images (and if I have to create unique images for them, they pay for the creation of them) but they never actually own them. They've only paid for the use of them. So, passing them onto a third party should not be allowed, in my view. Take this to its logical conclusion, and a client could, where appropriate, park my photographs with, say, Getty images and make back all the money they paid me to create them!

But, how should I handle this?

1. Put it down to experience and, in future, include a more elaborate ReadMe file with the DVDs I give clients? (I always include a ReadMe file on the DVD, but it doesn't include anything on third party usage since this situation is new to me.)

2. Make it clear that no one apart from the obvious may use the files?

3. Try to negotiate the usage of the files for a small additional fee? Afterall, the flooring company might become a new client? So, why annoy them?

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

D.

DaireQuinlan

Firstly ... IANAL. This looks suspiciously like a case in which you may have to lawyer up.

It sounds as though they're asking permission, which is good (you say that they "would like to use the images") so in normal circumstances I'd say just negotiate a fee with them and go for it. However, and this is the bit where I'm almost completely ignorant, if the flooring had "been created to an artist's design/specification" it sounds as though he or she might have skin in this game as well. While you, of course, own the copyright on your images, commercial use of those images by a third party without involving the artist might be ... problematical ...

sunny2004

Dinarius wrote: »

While I don't want to lose any of the clients I already have - the owners of the building, the artist, the artist's gallery -

That's the key point, you got paid, you were happy I assume..
I am thinking the above clients are CHUFFED that the company want to use their installation in promotional material.. SO don't expect them to see it your way, anything you do that risks the use of the images wont be seen from your viewpoint.

Now, did you do anything wrong ? It doesn't matter... Your current clients think your images were so good that the floor company wanted to use them, so you have concreted your position with them..

What to do with the flooring company ? small fee?
for me as a professional photographer I'm not sure any request for a small fee at this point would work, and might risk the clients you have already.. You could ask for a credit on the images, explain you will allow the usage as a good will gesture, solidifying your position with the new company, and also getting your foot in the door for potential other work, but I wouldn't hold my breath..

Moving forward, change your read me doc and exif data to explain the usage rights..

Any advice to "lawyer up" is stupid and easily given by those who do not risk their own livelihood..

Dinarius

sunny2004 wrote: »

That's the key point, you got paid, you were happy I assume..
I am thinking the above clients are CHUFFED that the company want to use their installation in promotional material.. SO don't expect them to see it your way, anything you do that risks the use of the images wont be seen from your viewpoint.

Now, did you do anything wrong ? It doesn't matter... Your current clients think your images were so good that the floor company wanted to use them, so you have concreted your position with them..

What to do with the flooring company ? small fee?
for me as a professional photographer I'm not sure any request for a small fee at this point would work, and might risk the clients you have already.. You could ask for a credit on the images, explain you will allow the usage as a good will gesture, solidifying your position with the new company, and also getting your foot in the door for potential other work, but I wouldn't hold my breath..

Moving forward, change your read me doc and exif data to explain the usage rights..

Any advice to "lawyer up" is stupid and easily given by those who do not risk their own livelihood..

Very sensible post.

Expresses what my gut instinct was about the situation, but I hadn't fully rationalized it.

I'm going to sit tight.

Many thanks.

D.

sunny2004

All the best with it..
There is no issue with contacting the 3rd party at this point, and introducing yourself, if it was me and I accepted I wasn't going to get any more money, I would happily drop them a line by way of introduction, saying I was trilled they decided to use the images for promotion and asking them to keep you in mind moving forward.. nothing to lose

Effects

sunny2004 wrote: »

You could ask for a credit on the images, explain you will allow the usage as a good will gesture, solidifying your position with the new company, and also getting your foot in the door for potential other work, but I wouldn't hold my breath..

If they think the photos are great, but aren't willing to pay a small usage fee for their use then they don't really resect your work. I doubt the flooring company would work for free, why should the photographer?

sunny2004

@ effects
I think you completely missed the point of the op post and the situation he is in, not to mention quoting me our of context.

Are you a professional full time commercial photographer with clients ? I ask this to simply understand if you have a working understanding of the commercial reality of the situation ? Or if you understood exactly the position the OP found himself in ?

Effects

sunny2004 wrote: »

@ effects
I think you completely missed the point of the op post and the situation he is in, not to mention quoting me our of context.

Are you a professional full time commercial photographer with clients ? I ask this to simply understand if you have a working understanding of the commercial reality of the situation ? Or if you understood exactly the position the OP found himself in ?

Apologies, I didn't think I was quoting you out of context.

My point was that a credit and hoping to get your foot in the door by giving your work away for free usually ends up with a potential client not valuing your work.
They love your work but aren't willing to pay €150 to use it? That's even less to them after they right it off as a business expense.

A small usage fee paid by the flooring company doesn't seem unreasonable.
If they are unwilling to pay that then it's doubtful they would hire you in the future.

Too many people are willing to work for free/cheap in photography.

Yes, I am a full time commercial photographer. I deal with usage on a daily basis as I do a lot of work in advertising. I've been in similar situations to the OP. I've offered small usage fees a number of times and it establishes the basis that I don't generally give my work away for free.

sunny2004

Effects wrote: »

Apologies, I didn't think I was quoting you out of context.

My point was that a credit and hoping to get your foot in the door by giving your work away for free usually ends up with a potential client not valuing your work.
They love your work but aren't willing to pay €150 to use it? That's even less to them after they right it off as a business expense.

A small usage fee paid by the flooring company doesn't seem unreasonable.
If they are unwilling to pay that then it's doubtful they would hire you in the future.

Too many people are willing to work for free/cheap in photography.

Yes, I am a full time commercial photographer. I deal with usage on a daily basis as I do a lot of work in advertising. I've been in similar situations to the OP. I've offered small usage fees a number of times and it establishes the basis that I don't generally give my work away for free.

It is out of context, the back story is the relevant part of this thread..

I don't need to explain this further as its all above for you to read

sheesh

Is there anything to be achieved by contacting the flooring company directly and saying you are delighted in their interest and where do you send the invoice? or indeed if you had other images of the floor that they might prefer?