Flying the nest - so disheartened at rental market

Joza

Hi all,

I'm a 28 year old Dubliner and still living at home. I've completed an undergraduate and master's degree in Dublin so I've never had the need to move out from my parents' house; besides, financially it would not have been possible. I've been working now around 2 years since I've finished university, having saved up a bit. But it's well passed the time where I need to move out and get my own personal freedom.

A friend and I are in the same boat and have started looking at properties to rent. We are both working in the tech industry and are earning above average salaries. We've been looking for somewhere decent - we are beyond renting a kip or student digs - so we'd like to find a place in a nice part of Dublin such as Drumcondra etc. that is also convenient for work purposes. But it just seems incredibly difficult to find anything.

Can anyone who found themselves in this position offer any advice?

And then there's loads of little questions that no one can seem to give a straight answer to: What should I have prepared and at the ready if something comes along that we want to go for? Will having no previous rental experience be a big problem? I can get an excellent character reference from my boss, would that help? Or will being able to prove my financial situation be sufficient?

Appreciate any constructive input at all. I know the rental market in Dublin is difficult at the moment but I had not anticipated it this bad, it's very disheartening. It feels like we just have to settle for something far far below our expectations if we ever want to move out at all

Sheep in a field

Joza wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm a 28 year old Dubliner and still living at home. I've completed an undergraduate and master's degree in Dublin so I've never had the need to move out from my parents' house; besides, financially it would not have been possible. I've been working now around 2 years since I've finished university, having saved up a bit. But it's well passed the time where I need to move out and get my own personal freedom.

Appreciate any constructive input at all. I know the rental market in Dublin is difficult at the moment but I had not anticipated it this bad, it's very disheartening. It feels like we just have to settle for something far far below our expectations if we ever want to move out at all

How much are you both willing to pay?

MarkAnthony

You'll be at a disadvantage having not rented before. A house share is the better first step ideally one where the LL is contactable for a further reference.

You might also want to be a bit more specific about what your requirements are. Rentals aren't generally known for being top notch outside of a few areas. That's pretty much always been the case.

April 73

You come across as mature & sensible (not in a bad way!) in your initial post. Try & get this across to the agents & any potential LL in all your communications, written & verbal.

Visit letting agents in the area so they have met you face-to-face. They will be more likely to remember you.

Create a tenant's brag-folder for yourself. Include details of references, parent contact details & address (even though you are 28), show some financial info if you are comfortable showing that to prove you are financially sound. Impress that you are looking to stay for a decent period of time, you want something nice & will treat the property well. Offer two months deposit.

You need to sell yourself as much as if you were applying for your dream job.
Good luck.

Clampdown

Even though you're 28, the reality is it's your first place, and it's in a capital city. So it's going to be a kip! It's the law. That's how it works when it's your first place in a big city.

See, because you're living at home, you've been a bit spoiled. A rented place in Dublin is probably not going to be as cozy as mummy and daddy's. It's ridiculous what landlords are getting away with in Dublin but that's the way it is now.

On the bright side: it's not permanent, you'll have all of Dublin outside your door, and if you pull on a night out, you can bring them back and not have to worry about waking up mum and da. You can hang up a killer unframed poster of Bob Marley smokin a fatty right above your couch if you want. You can make a huge tower out of empty cans left over from Friday night on your dining room table. You can have guitars and guitar amps strewn about the sitting room cuz your so rock and roll. You can learn how to clean a bathroom, or alternatively, just let it slowly turn a murky green color.

If that isn't enough to entice you to get you out into the world of renting, then just stay home for a few more years and save up til you can afford a deposit on a house and some totally tasteful framed prints from IKEA that will in all likelihood not feature Bob or fatties.

Clampdown

Get a reference from your employer and you could just get a reference written from your parents and just hand it over as your previous LL reference and don't point out its your parents. You don't have to lie as such and can just play dumb if questioned "oh I thought my parents would have been considered my previous LL as I lived at home".

Clampdown wrote: »

Even though you're 28, the reality is it's your first place, and it's in a capital city. So it's going to be a kip! It's the law. That's how it works when it's your first place in a big city.

This is nonsense in fairness. I know plenty of people who moved from abroad to cities in Ireland (not Dublin) and they had no problem getting nice apartments when their english wasn't even great never mind not having rented in Ireland before.

It will be much more difficult but the op should not have to settle for a kip.

Clampdown wrote: »

See, because you're living at home, you've been a bit spoiled. A rented place in Dublin is probably not going to be as cozy as mummy and daddy's.

Why the condescending tone? You make it sound like there is something wrong with living at home. Living at home till you buy is a perfectly sensible and acceptable thing to do if it's what a person wants. On the other hand if they want to rent they wont have to settle for a messy kip like you are describing, the op is 28 not 17.

If you're earning above average salaries, then ye should be well able to get something decent.
What
Kind of rent per month did ye have in mind?

Idbatterim

my personal opinion and in your position would be as follows. If you have a bit saved, would you not simply stay home another year or two and then buy?

If you dont, unless you get decent pay rise, trying to save anything meaningful when you add on bills etc, is nigh on impossible...

likely in only a few short years, you will be thinking, christ I am done with renting and want to buy... I am there now at 32 and would if I was in a position too...

Idbatterim

Idbatterim wrote: »

my personal opinion and in your position would be as follows. If you have a bit saved, would you not simply stay home another year or two and then buy?

If you dont, unless you get decent pay rise, trying to save anything meaningful when you add on bills etc, is nigh on impossible...

likely in only a few short years, you will be thinking, christ I am done with renting and want to buy... I am there now at 32 and would if I was in a position too...

Agree very much with this. It's a great advantage to be able to live at home and save, one many would love to have.

Anyone who lives at home and doesn't pay exactly the same as market rates is taking advantage imo

anothernight

bubblypop wrote: »

Anyone who lives at home and doesn't pay exactly the same as market rates is taking advantage imo

Exactly the same as market rates?

Yeah, and everyone who accepts a gift from a parent is robbing the parent. :rolleyes:

Idbatterim

Anyone who lives at home and doesn't pay exactly the same as market rates is taking advantage imo

I dont agree with that, why would most people bother living at home if paying market rate?

Also the housing situation in dublin is outrageous, if it were my kids, I would have no problem with them contributing towards bills and a bit of rent, providing they were using the money saved to go towards a deposit...

Idbatterim

Idbatterim wrote: »

I dont agree with that, why would most people bother living at home if paying market rate?

Basically my point.

Well, if you heard Mr Coveney on the matter last night when it was brought up by a woman in your situation, his advice was to get in touch with Threshold.

Yes, that's right, 2 people earning above the national average wage should have to get in touch with a fcucking charity to assist them with accommodation. Coveney, as a landlord himself, isn't going to lift a finger to help people in your situation. So it's going to continue.

My advice? Start saving, start looking at jobs abroad, and then move to a country that isn't built around a pyramid scheme involving a massive wealth transfer from the young people of this nation.

Terrlock

Stay at home for another 2 years. During that time put as much money as you can into savings....then work your way to a deposit and buy yourself a nice apartment or something.

Mortgages are cheaper then renting at the moment.

Alanstrainor

I was in a very similar position to yourself OP a few years back. Had terrible trouble renting without previous landlord references. Even having letters from my employer didn't seem to help. And also being 2 lads works against you always too, as I was exactly the same. You are just going to have to be relentless in looking at properties and making a good impression when you view or speak over the phone, it could take a long while yet to get anywhere, but you just have to put the work in.

Idbatterim

I was actually in the audience on the Claire Byrne show. I really wanted to make a few statements on this current farce and also the private renters who nobody seems to give a toss about! as they arent the typical definition of "vulnerable"...

Walter H Price

I hear your pain OP , i'm 25 and engaged ... been living out of home since i was 20 and gone through 4 apartments and 1 house in that time having to move back home for periods twice. biggest issue was the condition of the apartments / house and landlords taking the absolute Michael replacing broken appliances furniture etc.

The first place we had was a 2 bed at 900 a month , looked good on paper until 5 weeks in when it got a bit colder and it became apparent the heating was packed in , landlords view was it was packed in when we rented it (not that we were made aware) so he wasn't going to do anything other then offer a plug in rad so we left.

Next two places were ok nothing spectacular but rent got put up on both an so we moved along. both moved home for a while then rented a 3 bed house in my parents estate , estate agent was sooooooo helpful other than lying through her teeth about the financial situation of the couple renting the house , who had just been chucked out by the bank and what was stayig furniture wise. in the end we ended up moving into a place that was semi furnished full of the lanlords crap , kids toys exercise machines etc turned out h'ed done something illegal to the heating system to save money on gas the property had been cut off by the ESB so setting up a new account was a nightmare. cooker packed in and they offered a plug in hob so once again we handed them back the keys and moved home.

Eventually got a decent place in Ashtown last year 3 bed apartment way two expensive for us too afford on our own so we had to let out the other two rooms , that probably your best bet look for something a little bigger with an extra room and just sublet it out think the days two people affording to rent a two bed in Dublin are gone now.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

Anyone who lives at home and doesn't pay exactly the same as market rates is taking advantage imo

Nonsense, if I tired to pay rent when living at home I'd be told to cop on by my parents.

Idbatterim

Eventually got a decent place in Ashtown last year 3 bed apartment way two expensive for us too afford on our own so we had to let out the other two rooms , that probably your best bet look for something a little bigger with an extra room and just sublet it out think the days two people affording to rent a two bed in Dublin are gone now.

I agree, often 2 beds are tiny and the cost per room is quite high, way lower than a 1 bed, but I think 3 bed is optimal, also takes good bit off the bills... I am currently in a 3 bed, as you say, there is not a chance in hell I would pay what the much smaller in general, 2 beds are looking for...

Citroen2cv

Why not get a job in one of Irelands other cities, where rental prices are not as crazy. Cork, Galway and Limerick are all easily accessible easily from Dublin. There are plenty of jobs in the tech industry in any of these. They have good social life, and amenities etc.

Sham Squire

Looking for somewhere at the moment. 3 bed in an area accessible to my child's school and its just horrible. Your choice is either something only someone on a massive wage can afford or somewhere below basic expected living standards.
We like to think its a Dublin problem but I've friends in London, Tokyo, new York, cape cod(!!) and Vancouver and its exactly the same in all of these places (Vancouver and London would be worse).
Its global capitalism and the great migration from rural to urban. It would take politicians of great courage and innovation to solve this problem wherever it occurs, so we're doubly ****ed in this country.

Idbatterim

at least in those cities you can argue, that ridiculous limits on heights are not one of the primary causes... Those cities have world class and interesting modern architecture, what Dublin planners and developers have given this city, is an insult!

and I am not talking about why the docklands isnt Manhattan, I want to know why so many buildings, even being developed now in the midst of this crisis, in the docklands, are 5 floors, 5 bloody floors?!

athtrasna

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057571425/4/#post99080883

Discussion thread on building heights ^

Clampdown

Titan Better Telegram wrote: »

Get a reference from your employer and you could just get a reference written from your parents and just hand it over as your previous LL reference and don't point out its your parents. You don't have to lie as such and can just play dumb if questioned "oh I thought my parents would have been considered my previous LL as I lived at home".



This is nonsense in fairness. I know plenty of people who moved from abroad to cities in Ireland (not Dublin) and they had no problem getting nice apartments when their english wasn't even great never mind not having rented in Ireland before.

It will be much more difficult but the op should not have to settle for a kip.



Why the condescending tone? You make it sound like there is something wrong with living at home. Living at home till you buy is a perfectly sensible and acceptable thing to do if it's what a person wants. On the other hand if they want to rent they wont have to settle for a messy kip like you are describing, the op is 28 not 17.

Well, like you said, those people you know didn't move to Dublin. So it is completely irrelevant to the conversation because Dublin is a whole different ball game. Sure I know someone who moved to the backarse of Leitrim and got a lovely big house for a song, that doesn't mean OP can get the same in Dublin, does it?

It is next to impossible to get a nice place in Dublin without paying a ridiculous amount of monthly rent, which is the whole reason OP started the thread, isn't it? It sucks, but unfortunately what I'm saying is that sometimes you WILL have to settle for a kip. Or else share with a group to afford a nicer place. Or use your own time and money to improve the kip to a better standard because the landlord knows he can rent it as is to the next punter in the morning if you don't like the decor or whatever. Life's not fair, get over it.

As for the condescending tone, I think if you read my post you'll see most of it was lighthearted and I never said there is anything wrong with living at home. I recently moved back myself to save money and I was sick of making greedy landlords rich, but I lived outside the home for most of my adult life starting at 19 and it did wonders for me in terms of growing up. If you're living at home until your 28, there's nothing wrong with you, but you WILL have to realize that you might have to lower your standards to what you can afford in the current rental market for the area you want to live in. That's reality, you can't always get exactly what you want when renting and I think if might do OP a world of good to learn that before he turns 30.

Idbatterim

I recently moved back myself to save money and I was sick of making greedy landlords rich, but I lived outside the home for most of my adult life starting at 19 and it did wonders for me in terms of growing up. If you're living at home until your 28, there's nothing wrong with you, but you WILL have to realize that you might have to lower your standards to what you can afford in the current rental market for the area you want to live in. That's reality, you can't always get exactly what you want when renting and I think if might do OP a world of good to learn that before he turns 30.

The thing is the Op may be so closeish to being able to buy, moving out may delay that years, if you have been there till 28 and it is bearable, Id be staying put for another year or two, saving and being done with this entire joke of a situation personally...

There will be so much populism now with both major parties not knowing how long coalition will last, that I would be surprised if things are quite different in two or so years, first time buyers schemes etc, of course it only makes sense to buy if prices are reasonable ish...

Joza

Thanks for the input people.

I expected a little of "I'm so great because I don't live at home and you're just a big sap because you're 28 and a mammy's boy", so on that point, I do contribute financially to the household and I do live a largely independent lifestyle; I think most people my age and living at home would be in similar situations...but it's personal freedom that's really at stake here and I'm happy to rent to get that.

I've saved but I'm way off being able to buy at the moment. Staying at home a few more years to save is sacrificing personal freedom and growth, so I'm happy to wait a few more years before going the mortgage route. I've had one or two friends buy recently and to be honest, I'm almost certain their parents' remortgaged to prop-up the deposit they needed - I would never burden my parents with that.

Has anyone actually had any success from a situation like mine? Did you manage to find somewhere decent to rent without previous references?

Is financial proof enough for most landlords? I mean, if I can prove that I earn X and I can clearly pay the rent, and I'm working for big company Y, would that stand to me? Or do landlords actually do character checks?

It depends on how much your willing to spend on your rent.
I'm sure employees ref will go a long way.
If it states how long your there & your permanent employee etc

Maybe you could offer a bigger deposit than required?

Clampdown

Joza wrote: »

Thanks for the input people.

I expected a little of "I'm so great because I don't live at home and you're just a big sap because you're 28 and a mammy's boy", so on that point, I do contribute financially to the household and I do live a largely independent lifestyle; I think most people my age and living at home would be in similar situations...but it's personal freedom that's really at stake here and I'm happy to rent to get that.

I've saved but I'm way off being able to buy at the moment. Staying at home a few more years to save is sacrificing personal freedom and growth, so I'm happy to wait a few more years before going the mortgage route. I've had one or two friends buy recently and to be honest, I'm almost certain their parents' remortgaged to prop-up the deposit they needed - I would never burden my parents with that.

Has anyone actually had any success from a situation like mine? Did you manage to find somewhere decent to rent without previous references?

Is financial proof enough for most landlords? I mean, if I can prove that I earn X and I can clearly pay the rent, and I'm working for big company Y, would that stand to me? Or do landlords actually do character checks?

I was never inferring you were a sap or mammy's boy for living at home, just that you will have to accept that your rental place is going to be a lower standard for anything affordable, and as you said, the trade off is personal freedom. Like I said in my last post, I just moved home because I felt like a sap for paying through the nose to rent crappy places after renting for the last decade.

A few pay slips showing you earn X from big company Y should do the trick nicely, and would likely mean a lot more to a landlord than a reference. Most LL's don't put much stock in references, they know well anyone can easily get a mate to say 'oh yeah, Joza rented from me, sound lad.' They're good to have, but having the full security deposit ready to hand over and a few pay slips or bank statements showing your wages should be enough.

MarkAnthony

Joza wrote: »

Is financial proof enough for most landlords? I mean, if I can prove that I earn X and I can clearly pay the rent, and I'm working for big company Y, would that stand to me? Or do landlords actually do character checks?

The risk is, especially if you're going in with someone else, is you've never had that 'must pay the rent before all else' experience someone who's lived independently has had.

The concern in my mind, as a LL, would be - well just watch any episode of Judge Judy.

OP we're still not any closer to understanding what you consider 'decent' tbh.

MarkAnthony

MarkAnthony wrote: »

The risk is, especially if you're going in with someone else, is you've never had that 'must pay the rent before all else' experience someone who's lived independently has had.

The concern in my mind, as a LL, would be - well just watch any episode of Judge Judy.

OP we're still not any closer to understanding what you consider 'decent' tbh.

Or what yr willing to pay, which has made the thread a wild goose chase thus far imo

willhogan79

Ya you really need some sort of a glowing reference now...The competition is unreal. Even if you come half hour outside the capital it's crazy!

willhogan79

Well I have recently seen landlord ringing a potential tenants manager to check out the reference. Of course I do think the majority of the time they get a very good reference.

willhogan79

willhogan79 wrote: »

Well I have recently seen landlord ringing a potential tenants manager to check out the reference. Of course I do think the majority of the time they get a very good reference.

Unless someone is working for a small business a potential LL won't be given a reference by or contact details of the potential tenants manager. It will all be done by HR who in general will just confirm the person works there, they wont give any information because firstly HR don't normally know anything about the persons day to day life at work and secondly they aren't allowed give information anyway.

A employer reference will say "x" is employed by "company y" in the role of "z". That's what HR give where I work if someone asks for a reference.

willhogan79

I suppose that is the downside of large companies with HR departments.

Just have to hope your proof of solid income/reliable job is enough and a bit of luck in a rental market gone mad. Maybe as previously suggested to offer two months deposit would be the way to go too.

Hollister11

There really isn't much on offer atm that's affordable. If you move out, you probably won't have as great quality of life as you have know.

You need to factor in that you will be paying full rent, bills, and trying to save, instead of parts of bills, small rent, and trying to save.

It would be worth sticking it out for another couple of years, and see which direction the market goes in.

willhogan79

Ya all true and Dublin has its own property bubble as we know going on so even in few years you might have to consider living a certain radius outside of Dublin and commute to get both the standard and affordability you want.

slowjoe17

Joza wrote: »

Thanks for the input people.

I expected a little of "I'm so great because I don't live at home and you're just a big sap because you're 28 and a mammy's boy", so on that point, I do contribute financially to the household and I do live a largely independent lifestyle; I think most people my age and living at home would be in similar situations...but it's personal freedom that's really at stake here and I'm happy to rent to get that.

I've saved but I'm way off being able to buy at the moment. Staying at home a few more years to save is sacrificing personal freedom and growth, so I'm happy to wait a few more years before going the mortgage route. I've had one or two friends buy recently and to be honest, I'm almost certain their parents' remortgaged to prop-up the deposit they needed - I would never burden my parents with that.

Play the cards you're dealt. You have the opportunity to save probably minimum 1k/month that would otherwise be spent on rent. In two years, you'd have 24k, which would put any property < 230k within reach (assuming 3.5 x salary takes up the slack.)

The Dublin rental market right (I say as a notorious bear) is much tougher than the buying market. It will take many more years to save a deposit if you are paying market rents.

Start thinking "national housing emergency" while you make your decision. My rent went from 1550/pcm to 1750/pcm when I move out after a year. That's >13% pa increase.

The rental market is in crisis - mortgages are significantly cheaper than rents. A couple of more years at home with aggressive saving will change your life.

April 73

There's a lot to be said for that advice above. Short term pain of living at home for another couple of years, versus a deposit of €24,000 in your pocket. Seems like a hell of a lot of money to hand over to a LL.

April 73

April 73 wrote: »

There's a lot to be said for that advice above. Short term pain of living at home for another couple of years, versus a deposit of €24,000 in your pocket. Seems like a hell of a lot of money to hand over to a LL.

A lot of people lost multiples of that after buying. And the cost of maintenance, insurance added on. And the fact that if the nighbours or area go downhill yer absolutely screwed, and even if not you're tied down.

No one argument is simple between simple own vs buy positions

But id certainly agree that in these circs the option btwn paying dublin rent or not paying dublin rent seems a simple choice

Joza

Thanks for all the input everyone. Here's how things are going so far:

Finally got a chance to go see an apartment with a friend. Took time off work and went along to find a queue of about 30 people outside waiting. Gritted my teeth and viewed the place anyway, then let the agent know we were interested. Got an email back saying that work references were not enough, and that we also need previous landlord references

People have been talking about the 24K deposit, and to be honest I'm not too far from that. But seriously, are there places to buy in Dublin in decent areas for the price that would get you!?

I've got this feeling that getting a mortgage might literally be a lead weight. Is it the right time to buy? Are prices still sky-rocketing? Is there really such thing as the property ladder? That is, can buying a 200K-ish apartment in a dull complex really lead to getting a nice house down the line? So many unknowns about buying!

Konata

Joza wrote: »

Thanks for all the input everyone. Here's how things are going so far:

Finally got a chance to go see an apartment with a friend. Took time off work and went along to find a queue of about 30 people outside waiting. Gritted my teeth and viewed the place anyway, then let the agent know we were interested. Got an email back saying that work references were not enough, and that we also need previous landlord references

People have been talking about the 24K deposit, and to be honest I'm not too far from that. But seriously, are there places to buy in Dublin in decent areas for the price that would get you!?

I've got this feeling that getting a mortgage might literally be a lead weight. Is it the right time to buy? Are prices still sky-rocketing? Is there really such thing as the property ladder? That is, can buying a 200K-ish apartment in a dull complex really lead to getting a nice house down the line? So many unknowns about buying!

A 24k deposit is the minimum required for a house costing 230k (10% of 220k plus 20% of 10k). You will need a salary of approx 59000 to borrow the remaining 206000. So first you need to make sure that fits your means. To buy a house you also need to set aside another 5000 approx for stamp duty, legal fees and survey, plus a few grand more to start off with some furniture.

230k will open you to a decent range of 2 bed apartments within commuting distance of city centre (not sure where you work). You might find a few 3 bed houses but 230 is pushing it for a decent 3 bed in a decent area... stretch to 250-300 and you'll get some nice places in areas like Clongriffin, Belmayne, Kilbarrack, Swords, out Clonsilla direction etc. (not familiar with south side prices apologies).

You'll get a lot of conflicting advice about a property ladder and the pros and cons of 'investing' now in the hopes of climbing up in a few years. I personally think the best advice is to consider your current and medium term needs. Do you need and want a house right now? If yes, look at what you can afford. If it is only 2 bed apartments, ask yourself if you will be happy to be in a 2 bed apartment in 5 years time, if you will be happy to be in one with a partner, if you will be happy to start a family in one etc. Do you plan to move abroad in the next few years, is that something that could happen? Would you be happy to stay in Dublin for the next 5 years? If the 2 bed apartment (again, just using this as an example) fits all those criteria, then ask the same questions for the next 10 years and see if it still fits it. You need to plan for the worst case scenario (being that you are unable to sell what you buy/afford something bigger and are thus 'stuck'where you are for a long term period) and then look for something that will fit those needs.

If buying just doesn't seem like it will fit your personal circumstances then you're back to the renting vs. staying at home for another while situation.

oppenheimer1

Joza wrote: »

Thanks for all the input everyone. Here's how things are going so far:

Finally got a chance to go see an apartment with a friend. Took time off work and went along to find a queue of about 30 people outside waiting. Gritted my teeth and viewed the place anyway, then let the agent know we were interested. Got an email back saying that work references were not enough, and that we also need previous landlord references

People have been talking about the 24K deposit, and to be honest I'm not too far from that. But seriously, are there places to buy in Dublin in decent areas for the price that would get you!?

I've got this feeling that getting a mortgage might literally be a lead weight. Is it the right time to buy? Are prices still sky-rocketing? Is there really such thing as the property ladder? That is, can buying a 200K-ish apartment in a dull complex really lead to getting a nice house down the line? So many unknowns about buying!

Write your own landlords reference and sign it with your mothers maiden name.

References really aren't worth the paper they're written on tbh.

Sleeper12

You will need the usual stuff. Deposit, rent etc. You will need reference. From your parents and boss. You might need to show bank statements. Being your first rental they could ask for a double deposit especially if it's a really nice place.

Sleeper12

oppenheimer1 wrote:

Write your own landlords reference and sign it with your mothers maiden name.

Not a terrible idea