Traditional Latin Masses

Michael G

This is a subject that hasn't come up in the forum for a few years. Traditional Masses are now regular in some parts of the country but don't seem to happen elsewhere. Pope Benedict tried to reinstate the Traditional Mass, or the "Extraordinary Form" as he called it, as a valid alternative form of the Mass. Pope Francis doesn't seem to see liturgy as a priority, but was practically helpful to the SSPX when he was Archbishop of Buenos Aires.

However here in Ireland, some older bishops, priests and religious (of the Woodstock/Vatican II generation) don't like the TLM because it challenges their own private conviction (forty years ago) that they were young and clever, the enlightened ones who had shaken off the useless baggage of the past and had found the way to the future.

homer911

What's your point?

Michael G

homer911 wrote: »

What's your point?

What's yours? My post was an observation on the patchy availability of the Traditional Latin Mass.

lazybones32

I have no real desire to celebrate a TLM, seeing as I can't speak the language. I've been to Mass in other non-English speaking Countries and it isn't a great experience.
I could be wrong but I don't think Latin has any special significance other than being the traditional language used. I doubt God is more disposed to answer prayers delivered in Latin. The value of the Mass doesn't depend on the language, nor the Priest nor the people present.
What's the attraction of TLM to you, OP?

Michael G

It's not the Latin (though most people pick it up very quickly and missals come with Latin and English texts facing one another). The traditional Mass is completely different from the new one. Greater reverence, more silence making it easier to pray, emphasis on the Mass as Sacrifice not a Communion meal. Best of all, the priest's personality is concealed except when he is preaching. One of the great trials of the new Mass is being distracted by the priest. I heard a Dominican say once that an older priest advised him, about saying Mass, that if the congregation remembered him afterwards he was doing it wrong. Exaggeration for effect, obviously, but with a lot of truth in it.

alma73

Michael G wrote: »

This is a subject that hasn't come up in the forum for a few years. Traditional Masses are now regular in some parts of the country but don't seem to happen elsewhere. Pope Benedict tried to reinstate the Traditional Mass, or the "Extraordinary Form" as he called it, as a valid alternative form of the Mass. Pope Francis doesn't seem to see liturgy as a priority, but was practically helpful to the SSPX when he was Archbishop of Buenos Aires.

However here in Ireland, some older bishops, priests and religious (of the Woodstock/Vatican II generation) don't like the TLM because it challenges their own private conviction (forty years ago) that they were young and clever, the enlightened ones who had shaken off the useless baggage of the past and had found the way to the future.

There is a strong community of Catholics in Ireland who have returned to the pre V II mass. Lookup Silverstream Abbey. Dom Mark Kirby is probably the best preacher in Ireland on the return to authentic Catholic heritage.

Michael G

I don't want anyone to think that I am disputing the inherent validity of Novus Ordo Masses. I have seen them celebrated reverently and well. The problem is that the NO form itself has no defence against crass, vulgar or egocentric novelties; whereas the rigorous rubrics of the Extraordinary Form make such abuses impossible.

alma73

Michael G wrote: »

I don't want anyone to think that I am disputing the inherent validity of Novus Ordo Masses. I have seen them celebrated reverently and well. The problem is that the NO form itself has no defence against crass, vulgar or egocentric novelties; whereas the rigorous rubrics of the Extraordinary Form make such abuses impossible.

Well you should see the eastern rites or an Armenia rite.

Michael G

alma73 wrote: »

Well you should see the eastern rites or an Armenia rite.

I was once at a Greek Uniate Mass in Paris and it was beautiful. Are there any Masses celebrated in Ireland by Eastern clergy in communion with Rome?

hinault

Thankfully TLM seems to be garnering more widespread support in Ireland.

I'm currently in an exchange of correspondence with the local bishop of our diocese to try to allow for the re-introduction of TLM.

Michael G

If you approach him declaring that "Ecumenism means Equivocation", you will get nowhere. It needs to be done very tactfully.

hinault

Michael G wrote: »

If you approach him declaring that "Ecumenism means Equivocation", you will get nowhere. It needs to be done very tactfully.

Part of the approach includes invoking statements from his direct superiors.
Summorum Pontificum forms the kernel of our approach.

Mrs OBumble

hinault wrote: »

Thankfully TLM seems to be garnering more widespread support in Ireland.

It's a bit duplicitous to call it "The Latin Mass", when really what you want is "The Tridentine Mass", rather than "The Mass, in Latin".

beach_walker

A Latin Mass can be quite beautiful. Not every week though

Michael G

beach_walker wrote: »

A Latin Mass can be quite beautiful.

So can a Novus Ordo Mass, but it happens very seldom.

lazybones32

Michael G wrote: »

So can a Novus Ordo Mass, but it happens very seldom.

So the bread and wine becoming the Body and Blood of Christ for our sustenance isn't beautiful enough? Every Mass I've been to has been beautiful.

alma73

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It's a bit duplicitous to call it "The Latin Mass", when really what you want is "The Tridentine Mass", rather than "The Mass, in Latin".

I have had many Novo Ordus masses in Latin which are very beautiful. The Pope usually celebrates in Latin.

Michael G

lazybones32 wrote: »

Every Mass I've been to has been beautiful.

Then you are holier than I am.

lazybones32

Point being: Christ's presence is what makes every Mass beautiful, not the language it's conducted in or how much incense is burned.

"Think of what you're offering and who you're offering it to" - Padre Pio

Michael G

I try very hard to focus on that. There are churches I have learned to avoid because the liturgy is slipshod and ugly to the point of blasphemy and I have no hope of concentrating on the Sacrifice. By the way, how many Catholics nowadays understand the sacrificial nature of the Mass as you evidently do? Or believe that Our Lord is actually, physically present in the Tabernacle? Not many, judging by the storm of chatter that breaks out in most places when the priest hasn't even left the sanctuary?

lazybones32

It was like that here too, with priests encouraging people to recite words and prayers not meant for them; 'sermons' that sound like they come from the mouth of a SJW. In spite of all that, Christ still came and if everyone is negligent or disrespectful, wouldn't you like to be there so that at least one person welcomes Jesus?

And yes, my mind often wanders before, during and after Mass. It happens during prayer too. I'm not some super-focused person who never strays from what's happening but I try to come back, when I notice that my mind is elsewhere. I don't always feel the beauty of every Mass but I know I am privileged to be there and that something wonderful is happening.

Michael G

lazybones32 wrote: »

In spite of all that, Christ still came and if everyone is negligent or disrespectful, wouldn't you like to be there so that at least one person welcomes Jesus?

Thank you. That is an insight that I shall try to remember.

hinault

Lazybones makes a really great point.

If one holds that every Mass is Jesus present in body soul mind and divinity, then it follows that every Mass is literally a thing of beauty.

Even this practicing catholic try as I do - fails sometimes to appreciate - the real presence of Our Lord at every single Mass.

That's why I attend confession regularly so as to ensure that I'm in a good spiritual state and because I want to receive the Eucharist - receive Jesus - at every Mass that I attend.

Staying close to the sacraments is important, in my view.

beach_walker

lazybones32 wrote: »

I've been to Mass in other non-English speaking Countries and it isn't a great experience.

I accidentally found myself attending a Mass in Polish recently I haven't a word of the language. I must say, I quite enjoyed it. I couldn't lean back and relax so to speak, it kind of forced me to remain aware of the various stages throughout. That sounds bad but hopefully ye know what I mean.

The ceremony itself was lovely.

hinault

beach_walker wrote: »

I accidentally found myself attending a Mass in Polish recently I haven't a word of the language. I must say, I quite enjoyed it. I couldn't lean back and relax so to speak, it kind of forced me to remain aware of the various stages throughout. That sounds bad but hopefully ye know what I mean.

The ceremony itself was lovely.

Something similar happened to me when I attended Mass in France. My French is very limited so I had to concentrate harder at Mass as a result.:)